posted
Its odd how some people view the world isnt it?
My personal favourites:
quote: One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it. [emphasis added]"
Edited to remove link. (The damage is already done but just in case some Hatrackers have had personal experiances with the discussed matter)
Would you care to hear what some intelligent and well-informed Evangelicals are doing in the world, or is this just something that feeds your sense of superiority to other humans?
(Note: I do not consider myself an Evangelical Christian, much less a fundamentalist, but mocking people's ignorance and, I guess, trying to imply that anyone who shares their beliefs about Christianity must be just as ignorant, is really not putting your best foot forward either...)
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But mostly it just makes me sad. I guess I could be considered an Evangelical Christian (IE- a Christian that has a strong belief in evangelism) That doesn't make me pro-stupid.
I don't believe in the theory of evolution- don't really have a reason- but I don't. Do I think that people that believe in evolution are evil and sinful and whatnot- not at all- I don't mind if other Christians are- I have more important things to worry about.
Do I want to see atheists burned or drowned or any other such thing as some on that list were saying. Not at all- God didn't say- "go and make disciples of all nations by killing anyone who you disagree with."
Essentially- I'm just anti-stupid. And yes, I'm fully aware that some here and elsewhere that will say that my own motley collection of religious and policitical ideologies are stupid. The bible can and should be used in context with everything else in all of human history. Faith is the starting point of a relationship with God- not the end point- the foundation is faith- and from the assumption of belief and trust in God then one can begin to use logical analysis of scripture to figure out how to live.
It's funny- but it just makes me pissed off. And this ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would be. Sorry.
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posted
There are Fundamentalist idiots in the world. Pointing out their idiocy and laughing at them reflects on Fundamentalist idiocy - not on Evangelical Christianity (or other types of Christianity).
For instance, just because the Phelps family is full of crackpots, that doesn't automatically mean that all Christians are crackpots.
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Would you care to hear what some intelligent and well-informed Evangelicals are doing in the world, or is this just something that feeds your sense of superiority to other humans?
(Note: I do not consider myself an Evangelical Christian, much less a fundamentalist, but mocking people's ignorance and, I guess, trying to imply that anyone who shares their beliefs about Christianity must be just as ignorant, is really not putting your best foot forward either...)
Em, Im sorry but where did I say that anyone who shares their beliefs in Christianity is ignorant? I have great respect for Christians and wish I could have that much faith in something. I just thought it was funny how some people are so devout in their beliefs that they actually think that the laws of physics dont apply.
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posted
Believe me when I say that I don't believe Damien.m possted that out of disrespect.
However, if you go back to the main page of that site, you can see that they do have an anti-Christian bias. They link to athiest newsletters and have sister sites about conspiracy theoriests and racists, who they obviously lump together with fundamentalist Christians.
While I aknowledge that it's possible to do lists like this that don't serve to make an entire group look bad (I don't think that lists of funny things kids wrote on school essays expose the seedy underbelly of anti-child bigotry), I do think that it's clear that this list was created out of such a sentiment.
I mean, I hate to go for the obvious example, but if somebody had done this using a derogatory term for a race in the title, and then spent their internet time trolling websites that people of that race frequented, looking for posts that showed how "foolish" they could make people of that race look, everyone would cry "bigot" in a heartbeat.
But I'm sure that, when linking to the list, the poster would say, "Some of my best friends are (of that race)," and they'd get to feel a sort of patronizing affection towards that race, even as they laughed at how foolish some of "them" can be.
Again I am not in any way suggesting that Damien.m posted this list with even the tinyiest bit of malice.
But I am suggesting that the list itself may be showing the same contempt for a group of people that some people on that list are showing towards atheists.
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quote:Pointing out their idiocy and laughing at them reflects on Fundamentalist idiocy - not on Evangelical Christianity (or other types of Christianity).
I disagree. Pointing out idiocy and laughing at people mainly just reflects on the character of the person doing the pointing.
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posted
Is there any evidence that a young-earth creationist actually said that? Or that it was anyone that other yec's listen to?
Sounds like a made-up quote for the purpose of ridicule. Which, if one's position is so secure, one shouldn't need to do.
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quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: Sounds like a made-up quote for the purpose of ridicule. Which, if one's position is so secure, one shouldn't need to do.
Perhaps one shouldn't need to ridicule someone else's position. But if the position seems silly to you, why not ridicule it?
If someone finds one of my positions on anything to be silly, or stupid, or ignorant, by all means ridicule it! Make fun of me for holding that position.
If my position can't hold up in the face of ridicule, perhaps I should give it a second examination.
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quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: Is there any evidence that a young-earth creationist actually said that? Or that it was anyone that other yec's listen to?
Sounds like a made-up quote for the purpose of ridicule. Which, if one's position is so secure, one shouldn't need to do.
I wonder about this as well.
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posted
I understand, which is why I refrained from any ridicule myself. We are, essentially, guests in someone else's home when we post on this forum. But I stand by my point as it relates to conversation/discussion in the general society.
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quote:But if the position seems silly to you, why not ridicule it?
What is the benefit of ridiculing it?
I can tell you the costs: Sometimes things that seem silly to you end up being true. Ridiculing things prevents you and others from seeing clearly whether they are true or not, because it encourage people to not take those things seriously.
On top of that, ridiculing hurts the feelings of those who believe in the thing you are ridiculing - and encourages them to ridicule things you believe in. People tend to enjoy ridicule when it is against something they don't like. But ridicule often goes the opposite direction. Some fundamentalists often ridicule science, for instance. Even more so, some ridicule atheists. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: But ridicule often goes the opposite direction. Some fundamentalists often ridicule science, for instance. Even more so, some ridicule atheists. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
If they find things to ridicule, then yes. That's what I said.
Now, I'm not talking about ridiculing from ignorance. Sit down. Look at what they are saying, and then look at their reasons for saying it.
Then, if you find their point or reasoning to be silly, I would say feel free to ridicule it.
Maybe I'm taking the "South Park" stance here, and a lot of people disagree with that. But I think ridiculing an argument will bring attention to it.
For example, some people ridicule atheists. Fine. That just makes me interested in finding out what they think is silly, and decide for myself whether or not I agree with them.
If you ridicule my beliefs or positions or ideas, it makes me not take them for granted, which I think is always a good thing.
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posted
I think ridicule can be a useful weapon against injustices of power when used in a very directed, controlled, and relatively uncommon way (think the satire of Jonathan Swift or Mark Twain). But in regular day-to-day use, it seems to polarize and exacerbate the problem, and it often comes off as small-minded, egotistic, and petty, rather than as a stinging and effective rebuke.
I struggle with this more and more as I get older, though. I am becoming more small-minded, egotistic, and petty all the time, and an exasperated, hands-thrown-in-the-air approach of sniggering ridicule seems more and more appealing to me. This seems to be a fault with me, though, not the world. *rueful
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
On the topic of ridicule, I disagree that it is universally inappropriate.
Anytime you say, "I think its ridiculous that you....etc" you are ridiculing something. Sometimes people do need to be stopped in their tracks and be told that what they are doing is ridiculous.
If I am having a bad day, and have a chip on my shoulders and for some reason we enter a restaurant or somebody else's home and I am still carrying on, I would need somebody to say, "Hey, BB we are in a restaurant, the way you are acting is pretty ridiculous and immature, try to show some class please."
What if a person's position is, everyone else is a clod, and far beneath me, everything I do is the definition of correct, why even my farts smell divine whilst other's smell putrid. It does not always work this way, but those people benefit most from a person whose opinions they repspect ridiculing them.
There must be a billion chic flicks where the pompous guy is brought down by a simple girl who has little to no regard for how they do things and openly mock how their world is.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I realize the guy who made that page is doing it for ridicule but I don't see how anyone can laugh at that. It's horrible. Especially the one at the top of the page where the woman didn't understand her gay son and told him exactly what other people had told her to say and he killed himself.
That's not funny. That's terrible. It's terrible for the boy most of all, but it's also terrible for the poor mother who thought she knew exactly what to say only to have it be completely wrong and end up costing her her little boy!
The ones about people wanting to kill atheists... or kill gay people... Those aren't funny, they're SCAREY!
How is any of that funny?
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There must be a billion chic flicks where the pompous guy is brought down by a simple girl who has little to no regard for how they do things and openly mock how their world is.
I can't think of any. Unless you and I have very different definitions of open mockery. I would say that ridicule and openly mocking things tend to be the actions of the pompous character in such films, not the "simple" one.
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quote:There must be a billion chic flicks where the pompous guy is brought down by a simple girl who has little to no regard for how they do things and openly mock how their world is.
Not sure what you're trying to get at here. Obviously "a billion" is an exaggeration, but other than that, what exactly are you trying to say? I was thinking maybe you are making reference to a broader meme that gives rise to stories like The Emperor's New Clothes, but then you bring the whole male/female thing into it and I kind of lost your point.
Back to the ridicule thing, I think there might be a bit of a problem with open mockery. Telling someone they are being "ridiculous" is not the same as actively mocking them -- i.e., actual ridicule. At least not in my experience.
A private word to a person to help them avoid embarrasment in a social situation is not the same as ridicule -- which to me implies something like openly (publicly) calling attention to their behavior or statement and making fun of it.
I believe some things are actually worthy of ridicule, and -- just my personal bent here -- people who put themselves up above others and then display their ignorance or lack of morals/ethics/knowledge, etc., are often worthy of open ridicule. Especially (actually almost exclusively) if they are in some position of authority such as an elected official, a high-level government or corporate person, or perhaps high up in a church hierarchy.
But basic "folks" who aren't necessarily doing anything like trying to run other peoples' lives or affect public policy, or get us into some mess or another...well...it just seems mean-spirited to me.
I wonder why I have no trouble ridiculing politicians for things that I wouldn't ridicule your aunt Sally for, though. I suppose I'll have to join CT and call that a personal failing. I should refrain from ridicule or dish it out without regard to a person's station in life, I suppose.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I realize the guy who made that page is doing it for ridicule but I don't see how anyone can laugh at that. It's horrible. Especially the one at the top of the page where the woman didn't understand her gay son and told him exactly what other people had told her to say and he killed himself.
That's not funny. That's terrible. It's terrible for the boy most of all, but it's also terrible for the poor mother who thought she knew exactly what to say only to have it be completely wrong and end up costing her her little boy!
The ones about people wanting to kill atheists... or kill gay people... Those aren't funny, they're SCAREY!
How is any of that funny?
I agree with this. The first post (and the thread linked underneath it where the religious people comfort the mother of the boy) have now succeeded in making me utterly depressed. I do have to wonder whether the mother's a real person though and whether her story is made up or not... I noticed she doesn't have that many posts on that board. I hope it's just somebody's dumb idea of a joke.
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posted
Snail -- I think the invective heaped toward this woman (although she'll probably never read it) on the mocking site is pretty nasty too.
The original thread on the Christian site appears to be gone. The one where people are trying to comfort her after her son's suicide appears to still be up, and, well...naturally, people are saying things to try to "help" her, without really thinking about the feelings of her dead son.
It's all extremely sad.
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posted
It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
DKW: I could probably come up with movie scenes that demonstrate this but I am not sure we have seen the same movies.
But I should mention that I see ridicule and mocking to be in the same vein, not identical mind you but I would feel comfortable with saying that, "to ridicule" indicates mild to moderate mocking.
We will conjure up a generic movie scene.
Nice down to earth girl and pompous man who is with her come to a pond. Girl says, "hey lets be spontaneous and go for a wade in the knee deep water!" Pompous man of course rebuffs her and she leaps into the water, the man recoils as the splash nearly gets a few dropletts on his expensive clothes." Girl laughs at the man's behavior (which in of itself is a mild form of ridiculing it) and what do you assume the girl is going to do next?
If you thought she splashes him playfully, then your mind works like mine To me though she is ridiculing his overly serious manner.
Benjamin Franklin once published a piece where he took the vast numbers of titles that existed for members of royalty and the clergy and applied them to folks found in the Old and New Testament. The contrast was that people in the bible as important as say the virgin mary were (in the bible) merely referred to by their names, whereas a preacher from Boston might be called, "The right good reverend Cotton-Mather," and to not use that title was considered rude. The purpose of the piece was obviously to ridicule the pompouse and prideful clergy/royalty of both Europe and America.
Perhaps my way of seeing things is not your way, but I think ridicule certainly has a place, and not an always unfavorable one.
----
On a seperate ridicule related subject,
I would be very interested in folks take on one occurance in the Bible. Elijah has setup that contest with the priests of Baal and whoever conjures up fire from heaven wins, and the true God of heaven is revealed. Elijah mocks and ridicules the priests the entire time they are making their attempt.
Is this an instance of justified ridicule? Prophets are certainly not perfect, but it seems strange that God would honor Elijah's request for fire if he disagreed with Elijah's mocking. The fact he mocked them is simply stated without any moral judgements made on the action. I myself have thought often about whether Elijah was right or wrong to mock the priests. I've yet to come to a conclusion. I'd love to see how others see that scenario.
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posted
It's okay, Damien.m. This is probably a live-and-learn sort of thing, and she (if she is real) probably won't see this thread. It is a useful reminder that many times we don't have the full picture, though.
That's something that keeps me up at nights. I still grit my teeth over silly and thoughtless things I did years ago that harmed somebody.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote: That's something that keeps me up at nights. I still grit my teeth over silly and thoughtless things I did years ago that harmed somebody.
I too grit my teeth occasionally when I think about things you have done that harmed people Claudia *shakes head* Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It is depressing, isn't it? I am most upset about one that was completely unintentional, but I fear was insulting beyond belief. It wasn't the worst, but I can't believe I did it.
I've mentioned it here before -- the time I insisted a young middle-schooler I was meeting to tutor was, instead, his mother. (He looked like a short, middle-aged woman to me, and I kept addressing him as Mrs. So-and-so and asking where his son was. It took me a couple of -- very public -- minutes to process that he was, in fact, the son. Oh, good grief.)
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quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: Is there any evidence that a young-earth creationist actually said that? Or that it was anyone that other yec's listen to?
I was there a few months ago when this popped up on IIDB. The person who posted it there claimed to have been discussing evolution on ChristianForums and that the posted quote was in response to something he said. So there are not many people who could be lying about it. You could probably still trace it to the source.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: BB, you claimed that there are "a billion" examples of something, but you are unable to come up with one?
I'm afraid I don't accept a "generic" example that you made up as evidence of anything.
*sigh* ok how many do I have to list before I am justified in using "a billion" as hyperbole?
edit: The Sound of Music Mary Poppins My Fair Lady Step Up Save The Last Dance
Or did you want me to pick one movie and cite one example? Because I'd rather not outline one only to have you respond with, "Well that's just one movie."
double edit: and I did not say I could not come up with one, I didn't want to take shots in the dark hoping you had I both happened to have seen the same movie.
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quote:Originally posted by the doctor: Snail -- I think the invective heaped toward this woman (although she'll probably never read it) on the mocking site is pretty nasty too.
Probably. I didn't read those. To be honest I can't make myself to feel much sympathy towards her, but I still don't think she ought to be mocked, especially in a situation such as her sons death.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
It does seem like the quote is a bit over-the-top. Most of the time, when I see the second law of thermodynamics argument, people using it don't realize that an outside source of energy allows for the local decrease of entropy of a system. I'd be surprised if someone was aware of this aspect of the second law but didn't realize the sun is the source of that energy.
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posted
If those are your examples I stand by my assertion that you and I have very different definitions of open mockery. Also, aparently, "simple girl" and "chic flick."
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Ah. The discussion - again, this is according to my memory of a conversation a couple of months old, and second-hand - went on with the atheists pointing out the Sun, and the creationist giving reasons why the Sun didn't count.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: If those are your examples I stand by my assertion that you and I have very different definitions of open mockery. Also, aparently, "simple girl" and "chic flick."
Well it is hardly helpful when I am the only trying to layout what the words mean to me and merely having you take pot shots at it.
I could lay out a perfectly crafted essay on this topic and then have you respond simply,
"If that's what you think, then we disagree."
I suppose that's fine, but was there really a point to challenging what I said, if you were looking to simply disagree with my perspective in the end?
Perhaps you could state why you think my description of "ridicule" is not the best description?
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posted
"Ridicule" means to intentionally make someone the butt of humor. It is, by definition, contemptuous and derisive. The same holds for "open mockery," although to a lesser extent.
What you seem to be describing seems more like teasing, which can be either vicious or good-natured depending on various factors. (Although I can't remember any character doing even that in Mary Poppins.)
Regardless, "If that's what you think, then we disagree" is what this is going to come down to, whether you write a well-crafted essay on it or not. And that was all I wanted clarified -- whether you are using the words in a different way than I would or whether you have seen a bunch of movies that I haven't that would indicate a meme of (what I would also call) open mockery. The first appears to be the case.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
Actually, what I said was that telling someone they are being ridiculous and ridiculing someone are different.
Here's the difference:
Option one: You are being ridiculous, you should stop.
Option two: Ha! Look at <person> everyone -- what an idiot! He doesn't even know how to use a knife and fork! I bet he drinks by lowering his head to a water dish and lapping stuff up! HA HA
Posts: 61 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
I'm not sure why it would be strange. It's similar to saying something is stinky as opposed to stinking something up yourself.
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Fantastic! That has made my day, thanks.
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To me though she is ridiculing his overly serious manner.
