quote:Originally posted by steven: "Parents do NOT have to let CPS or the police in without a warrant.
Parents have the right to know why CPS is visiting, but not who called.
Parents have the right to RECORD all interactions with CPS/the police, even with a warrant."
Speaking to these quotes, and to the original post, Wow, holy shizzle.
I live in rural North Carolina. This kind of stuff flies around here like a lead kite. No Social Services person would risk their life with this sort of thing. They'd get shot pulling this.
I'm not saying there aren't some stupid parenting practices going on here, just as there are elsewhere. But could the stuff not wait until daylight?
Whatever. Wow. Big culture shock.
I saw a classified ad from the Social Services HR department in the local paper about 5 years ago. "Wanted--Social Service worker. Will visit families in-home to determine welfare of children. Car and bachelor's degree required."
I had a supervisor at a recent job who, prior to moving here, had been a CPS worker in New York City. I would never have expected her to say this, but she seemed to feel that the chances of being shot/beaten on a CPS visit were so much higher here than in NYC that she decided to changed careers.
I don't know. We're not that bad, IMO. I've never shot anybody.
Maybe its something in the water.
*must resist urge to make a comment about food*
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I have seen some of my 'net friends have CPS called on them for parenting practices that are legal in the enlightened state of Washington, but not in all states, so I have absorbed a bit of what parent's rights are.
I think those are all legal everywhere in America, although you have to fight for it more in some states than in others.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I just got the most infuriating call from a man who did not seem to understand the phrase "get a warrant."
He apparently thought that arguing with me and defining the mission of Chidren and Family Services was going to help change my mind.
And he also said that "police officers can enter anyone's home at any time for any reason." When I defined "probable cause" for him, he seemed dumbfounded.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I was just really frustrated at his seeming uncomprehension of the definition of "probable cause".
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I wonder how much is really difficulty in comprehension and how much is seeming difficulty in comprehension. Either way, sucks for you. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I truly can sympathize with you, KQ. Someone made unfounded calls about my family to CPS 12 years ago, and again seven years ago. These calls happened 500 miles apart. Both times it was done simply for vengeance.
For us, the children, it was one of the scariest experiences of our lives, but our parents kept a lot of the details hidden. I think it was because the investigation was even worse than we could have imagined.
Hugs all around, and keep fighting. They'll have to be satisfied that there is no abuse or whatever, but you clearly know your rights, so their harassment will end when they see that you won't back down from the fight.
Edited for redundance
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: And he also said that "police officers can enter anyone's home at any time for any reason." When I defined "probable cause" for him, he seemed dumbfounded.
It absolutely boggles my mind that he would say this.
I'm so sorry that you're still dealing with this whole situation, kq. It sounds terrible.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I think he's used to dealing with people, well, not quite so educated as me, who are more afraid to stand up to authority figures than I am.
While I'm not afraid to stand up for my rights, I hate being in this situation, it takes a toll on me. I was so upset after speaking with him that I had an asthma attack and had to use my inhaler.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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kq, I understand completely. I don't do well in such situations, either. Not that I've ever dealt with CPS, having neither lived in the US nor never having had children, but you get what I mean. I usually end up with migraines. Asthma attacks suck. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I was thinking that you might want to schedule an appointment with this person's supervisor or the chief/sheriff in charge of whatever law enforcement agency sent people to your door.
While I support the folks doing jobs like CPS and law enforcement, I don't like it when they try to run roughshod over people's rights. It gives them a very bad name in the community, I think, and isn't really worth the time savings they get from it, in the long run.
I'm glad you are not caving in.
I hope they decide you aren't worth the trouble.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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One possible area of confusion is that police officers have the right to request access to a house at any time for any reason. This guy may have internalized this lesson very poorly. Which doesn't excuse him at all, of course.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Unfortunately, CPS doesn't seem to have a process for saying, "Oh, ok, well, never mind."
Once the case is triggered, it seems to have to go through the entire process before it goes away. This includes the follow-up visits, and parenting classes or meetings. I don't know if getting an attorney and going to court over it would help or hurt. Here in our small rural community, I usually recommend that the innocent victim follow through and cooperate with the visits and inspections to get the case to end as quickly as possible.
The most recent one I have been involved in took about 2 months to process. A neighbor in a low-income housing community falsely reported because the mother wouldn't let the neighbors take her wireless phone to their apartment and keep it for hours. There was an initial visit, fortunately during daylight hours, and two follow-ups with enough notice given to allow for a good housecleaning. After the third visit, the case was closed and noted with no evidence of abuse or neglect.
I know good parents who have lost their children to the foster system, one cooperating and several resisting the investigations, and it scares me. You are in my prayers. I wish this had not happened to you.
Posts: 1379 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Unfortunately, CPS doesn't seem to have a process for saying, "Oh, ok, well, never mind."
I think they do in some states/areas. Not here, apparently. And the guy I got stuck with is an IDIOT (or at least acting like one.) He seems not-quite-fluent in English, too. The night worker was much more polite and less belligerent-- and spoke better English.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I too would normally go with the path of least resistance, but this situation is different. They clearly got a bad tip, it sounds suspiciously like it came from a mentally ill person from the immediate family who has a temporary grudge, and the suprise visit turned up some dirty dishes.
What could they possibly get from scheduled follow-up visits? It's a waste of their supposedly limited resources. It's a waste of kq's time. AND it is disruptive to her family.
On top of that, people have lied to her (whether intentionally or not) and been rude.
There is a point where the average citizen simply must say "STOP" to our government if we are going to retain any rights at all. If not in a case this obvious, then when?
If, some of the above is flat wrong -- e.g., kq's brother isn't really the "tipster," then maybe they'd have some reason other than "process" to keep visiting. But really, if all of that stuff is the way this really got started, then they are closing in on harassment, in my humble opinion.
Again, I'd say that getting some legal advice in your local area might be prudent. I'm sure there are lawyers around who can tell you just what the limits are, and what you're in for if you decide to fight versus cooperate.
The fact that this bozo is likely to continue to call you at odd hours, or inconvenience you until you submit to his will makes me think that there should be some sort of civilian review board. If one doesn't already exist, maybe you could help to start one.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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If they give me any kind of trouble or keep threatening me (he's made implied threats about removing my children if I don't let him in twice, now), I will be calling Legal Aid.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Oh, man, if CPS came to my house... eek. We're in the middle of moving all of our furniture to the basement so that we can refinish the floors. Our house is a COMPLETE disaster inside and out.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Wow, ketchupqueen -- what an annoyance to have to deal with when life is far too complicated already! Especially with kids 'n all. How are they taking it, by the way?
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:If they give me any kind of trouble or keep threatening me (he's made implied threats about removing my children if I don't let him in twice, now), I will be calling Legal Aid.
How "implied" were they? If they were at all explicit - if he connected asserting your rights with removal of the children - I'd call legal aid now. Any charitable interpretation I might have put on his lack of knowledge of due process is gone if he made that kind of threat.
I might demand the name of his supervisor, too, but I'd probably want to talk to someone with experience with that particular CPS office first, just to find out how vindictive they are.
I'd also ask someone locally what the rules are for recording conversations and find out if CA a one or two party consent state. Based solely on your descriptions here, this guy strikes me as possibly vindictive and dishonest.
My inclination on this would have been a meeting in the CPS office to find out exactly what the allegations are and a written commitment from CPS that following steps X-Y-Z would close the matter. Again, though, I'd want local information about the office before attempting that.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I have several friends who have lost their kids to CPS for NO legal reason and the court battle to get them back has almost destroyed their families. PLEASE KQ call an attorney now. Try to find one that is familiar with CPS and has dealt with them before. Don't risk losing your kids because someone with a little power feels you are undermining his authority. Its too risky.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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KQ: I am so so sorry this is still going on. I know its rough but stay as calm as you can throughout this situation. This guy sounds like the wrong guy to give the yelling treatment too. Its monstrous, but any treatment you give him can be unfairly linked to how you may be treating your own children.
Use your head, and if it seems right follow the advise of smarter (smarter then me that is) people on this thread. Lets hope this all just blows over and you don't have to worry about this nonsense again.
There needs to be a human decency enforcement agency, HDEA. They would give your brother a swift kick to the butt and a harsh talking to for this infraction.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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IANAL, but California is a TWO-party consent state. However, there are exceptions:
quote: In the state of California, one party consent can be applied only under circumstances in which one party is involved in criminal activity which would include extortion or blackmail.
kq, it really does sound like you should call Legal Aid now, just in case. *hug*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm gonna jump on the "call a lawyer NOW" bandwagon, KQ. This whole thing sounds really strange.
Are we absolutely positively certain that he's truly from CPS? As in, have you called them with his ID in hand and confirmed that he is who he claims to be and that he's supposed to be there at that immediate point in time? I suddenly got a bad feeling that he's trying to case the joint to see if you have anything worth stealing at some later date.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Are we absolutely positively certain that he's truly from CPS? As in, have you called them with his ID in hand and confirmed that he is who he claims to be and that he's supposed to be there at that immediate point in time?
Yes.
And I've got a call from the nurse there, too; I'm trying to decide whether to speak to her or make her get a court order for my kids' medical records.
I guess it is time to call a lawyer. But I'm just sick of it, I guess I was hoping they'd just leave me alone (he didn't say anything about another follow-up visit last time he was here.)
The implied threats were pretty implied. He was careful about that.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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You certainly need a lawyer now. The implied threat is enough of a problem to need the counsel.
My parents stuck to their guns and used all of the legal aid and knowledge they had, and they won. Weaker people would have given in. You aren't weak.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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This is all very surreal. Basically, all it takes for a law-abiding, loving parent to be in danger of losing their kids is one, hateful, vindicative report?
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Wow, I've been away from hatrack and missed this. I hope things can be easily resolved KQ. This just sounds really awful. At first I thought I'd misunderstood what CPS meant b/c I thought surely not *that*.
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Wow. All I can say to this is that I'm sorry you're going through it. What an awful situation!
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And to answer your initial, title-question: a crazy person, or a total asshole. Not trying to be flippant there.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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If something else happens, consider contacting the Home School Legal Defense Association. Their theology is out to lunch, but the legal service they provide for homeschoolers is extremely valuable. http://www.hslda.org/Default.asp?bhcp=1
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