posted
(First off I don't wish to persue the typical are Mormons Christians argument, I am lumping them together because both groups accept Jesus' words as gospel.)
I noticed that the topic of the whether Christians ought to judge others came up and kmbboots mentioned that it might be an excessive stretch in topic from the original thread. Since I judged this comment to be accurate I decided to create a thread where the topic could be discussed, possibly with tangeants to follow.
Obviously Jesus' admonition, "Judge not lest ye be judged." Is the first scripture that comes to mind. I think subsequent verses are VERY valuable in articulating Christ's point.
So was Jesus' purpose to discourage Christians from judging their neighbors? I certainly can agree that more then a few people in human history have been hurt deeply by the judgemental natures of others. I'd go so far as to say that some have been driven to commit suicide because of judgemental behavior.
It is quite important that it is understood that in the original scripture Mormons believe an omition was made somewhere in the translation process. I can't look up Joseph Smith's translation but from memory, "Judge not lest ye be judged," after correction by Joseph Smith becomes, "Judge not unrighteously lest ye be judged, but judge righteous judgement...etc"
But even if we take away Joseph Smith's translation I still believe the scriptures when taken as a whole say that we must first cleanse ourselves of iniquity before we judge anything. Perhaps even because we are all sinners it is not given to us to judge others and how God feels about them.
I personally believe that God in his effort to make us like Him wants us to learn to have judgement. That is that we can discern and see things as he does. Like all good attributes this takes practice through application. Unfortunately God does not have an office where he grants us a license to judge after passing some sort of examination, and therefore just about anybody can pass judgement, and indeed everyone does.
I think where most people jump the gun or miss the mark is that they try to treat God as the baliff and set themselves up as judge. For example, "God is going to send you to hell for what you did."
I don't believe Christians have any leg to stand on when they deign to say what God is going to do. It says many times in the scriptures that God's way is not man's way, and that his ways are nigh impossible for us to comprehend.
I don't believe however that that means God does not want us to try.
You don't have to practice by going around pushing your judgements on others and trying enforce those views. But you are expected to learn to see the evidence and decide what it all means.
If say you find that honesty is the best policy, then you've got a start. That does not mean you jump to the conclusion that all lying is wrong because then you are not, "Judging righteous judgement."
When it comes to observing other people's actions and passing judgement on them, I think the most important thing to remember is that it is not for you to pass your own judgements off as God's will, or even absolute truth. But it is to everyone to observe, and to glean wisdom from all that happens.
I think that if we try to simply not judge anyone, we do ourselves a diservice. We fail to identify the motives behind an action, and that can be very damaging as well. For example if you fail to judge what prompts a sibling to act the way they do, you might fail to identify yourself as part of the problem, and in that situation I think you are partially liable for any damage done.
Anwyay that's my schtick on judging, I'd love to hear believer's and non believer's take on Christ's words.
posted
No to mention, "by their fruits you should know them." The point of that one is that you can know good people by how they act. Hardly a non-judgemental approach. But, yes, I agree that the judgement has to be based on righteousness and wisdom.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I think that the concept of "stewardship" is important here. Take lying. Let's say, lying to get out of trouble.
Do you have stewardship over your neighbor, who you hear laughing about how he lied to his boss to get out of trouble? No. So you leave it alone. Do you have stewardship over your child, who tells you that the dog broke the lamp when you saw him knock it over? Yes. So you take appropriate action to teach your child why lying is wrong.
But you don't think, "That lying little brat!" (Unrighteous judgement.) You think, "My child whom I love has lied, and therefore must be taught not to lie, and the consequences to which lying could lead."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I'd go so far as to say that some have been driven to commit suicide because of judgemental behavior.
I think, in terms of the history of Christians judging people, the juedged being driven to suicide is pretty low on the causes of death.
When I was a - red letter - Christian, the message seemed very clear to me. Jesus's message seemed to me to be a personal one. Ultimately, if you followed it correctly, there really isn't even a need for a prohibition against judging other people. If you had judging others as a major concern, you were obviously doing it wrong. Your focus in that case would really be on the wrong thing.
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In addition, the relationship you are supposed to have with others is one of love and of helping them. As part of this, you may find a need to judge their actions, but judging the person themselves is, to my view, inconsistent with this relationship.
For example, the concept of "good" and "bad" people is, in my view, antithetical to Jesus's teachings.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Squick, you've hit it on the nail; I think we all have enough to deal with in our own lives and hearts that we shouldn't have time for judging others-- only serving them and lifting them up.
Not that I'm perfect in that respect. But I'm trying.
Of course, when you're on a jury, that's a different case. But I mean in our own lives.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
That is a good summation Mr S. It's nice to read such an extensive post by you, and to agree on every point.
Incidentally what would you identify (or judge if you will) the more likely reason for somebody to commit suicide as I mentioned in my post?
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posted
I think you misunderstand the suicide thing. I meant that it ranked pretty low as compared to setting people on fire, enslaving them, torturing them to death, etc. that came from Christians judging people.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I agree that MrSquicky did a pretty good job there, though I think it valuable to touch on an aspect that you brought up BB: Observations leading to greater wisdom etc...
I believe that we shouldn't judge the spiritual righteousness of others. However, it is both beneficial and necessary to judge people on a constant basis in your life.
Example: If a man breaks into your house at night waving a weapon around, then I think it appropriate to judge him a danger (at least at the moment) and base your actions on this judgement.
Similarly we by nature judge others for characteristics such as trustworthyness, reliability etc. Now it's helpful not to attach these characteristics to a larger judgement i.e. "Jane is trustworthy, therefore she is a good and righteous person." while Jane may in fact have any number of flaws in other areas of her life (not for us to delve into) all we know is that she is trustworthy, so maybe she's a good person to confide in.
Additionally, as brought up, sometimes it's in the person's best interest if you judge them. If I determine that some quirk of John makes him very uncomfortable around Jane, then it would probably be best to keep them apart (at least until we know more).
Where I find this often a struggle is in the work environment. I've known any number of people who may be perfectly nice people, but are not necessarily good workers. Sometimes this is also an issue such as even a good worker and seemingly good person who may not be available because of a sick loved one etc etc.
The trouble is, if you don't allow the nice or otherwise burdened people to slack at work then perhaps you are seen as heartless. but if you do allow them to slack, then it makes everything harder for everyone else.
So if anyone has any thoughts on that issue I think it would be interesting and potentially useful.
(if I've strayed too far from the initial topic just let me know)
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:I still believe the scriptures when taken as a whole say that we must first cleanse ourselves of iniquity before we judge anything. Perhaps even because we are all sinners it is not given to us to judge others and how God feels about them.
I feel, unfortunately, that historically many people who would claim to have cleansed themselves of iniquity- or at least, made substantial public claim of such- made judgements that led to enormous tragedies. In communities, religious or otherwise, human nature and the tendency to want to divide "those like us" from "those not like us" often brings an incentive to grant an ability to judge to someone who might be seen as a stalwart of the community but might be otherwise lacking.
Yet we judge. We must. We make decisions that this is positive and this negative, this helpful and this harmful. And sometimes, we're wrong.
I've explored this theme a bit in writing, and one of my thoughts was that the best one could hope for in one who judged is someone with no external stake in the outcome of the judgement. In real life, however, I suspect such a level of impartiality is all but impossible to find.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Anwyay that's my schtick on judging, I'd love to hear believer's and non believer's take on Christ's words.
Since you asked, I believe there is a kernel of wisdom in the phrase from Jesus. If I were to elaborate, I would expand on the idea to be "Feel free to judge people, but definitely do not do anything to them physically based on that judgement, lest they do the same to you."
It is really just a variant of the Golden Rule, no?
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quote:I think, in terms of the history of Christians judging people, the juedged being driven to suicide is pretty low on the causes of death.
No, I think it's definitely in the top ten, at least if you look at estimates of how many people are gay and what proportion of suicides are young people. If after that we want to look at the crusades and sectarian clashes, and then various forms of witch hunting, I guess those might come out on top. But I'm less certain about the witch hunting.
Just as much as someone needs not to judge someone they have no stewardship over, folks don't have to accept the judgement of those who don't serve them/have responsibility for them. We are commanded not to judge, but also not to take offense. Taking offense comes from the hunger for approval, which when it is sought from the wrong sources will of course cause unhappiness.
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posted
Some people prefer to emulate Christ by living a Christ-like existence. There are many sacrifices that such a life entails, and an impossible goal as none of us are truly Christ.
Other people take the easier path. They try to be Christ-like by destroying Satan. These people find Satan in the lies, failings, and sins of others.
Muslims and other believers in a duality of good and evil powers do the same. Some seek to live the pious life that their religion requires. Others take a shortcut. They confuse being good with defeating bad.
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posted
Pooka, Squicky already tried to explain that that's not what he meant.
By "low on the causes of death" he did not mean "Christian judgment is low on the causes of suicide", he meant "suicide is low on the causes of death by Christian judgment"
He's not downplaying Christian judgment as a factor for suicide. He's downplaying suicide itself, saying that (historically) outright torture and murder by judgmental Christians is a much more significant problem.
To be clear, I don't think I or Squicky is trying to badmouth Christianity specifically, either. Most religions have a history of bloodshed, because most of human history is full of bloodshed.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I think you misunderstand the suicide thing. I meant that it ranked pretty low as compared to setting people on fire, enslaving them, torturing them to death, etc. that came from Christians judging people.
Ah! You may well be right.
quote:Since you asked, I believe there is a kernel of wisdom in the phrase from Jesus. If I were to elaborate, I would expand on the idea to be "Feel free to judge people, but definitely do not do anything to them physically based on that judgement, lest they do the same to you."
Or it could be the same as the verse, "2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
If a physical response is deemed necessary remember that you will be judged along the same lines one day.
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posted
I am not sure if this has been stated but I cannot tell.
I believe that this is a message on hypocrisy, one that goes along with the splinter/log metaphor...
In my opinion he was saying that one should not attack another person's deficiencies and denounce them for same unless you too wish to have your deficiencies held up in the light of day.
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"2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't think so, Dan, but I'll accept your judgment
On the mote and the beams (and I talk about this often, I know) I don't know if we see motes where we have beams or looking at motes gives us beams. I guess it depends.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: definitely do not do anything to them physically based on that judgement, lest they do the same to you."
It is really just a variant of the Golden Rule, no?
A variant, but still more like Confucius or something out of the Apocrypha. "Don't do something bad to someone else, lest they do the same to you." Jesus' words are the positive side of that idea, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Matthew 7:12) You can't cop-out and just do nothing at all (unless that really is what you wish everyone would do to you--leave you alone), which would fulfill the first notion.
As for judging, it is really important to me not to take verses out of context. The "judge not" passage is in the Sermon on the Mount, the same sermon where Jesus warns against people he refers to as "dogs" and "swine". [Another discussion thread, perhaps, but I interpret that passage to be referring to those people who, by their self-stated contempt for the Word, have become self-condemned and are unworthy to the treasure that is the gospel.] Scripture repeatedly tells believers to be discerning (I John 4:1, Romans 12:2, I Thessalonians 5:20-21, Hebrews 5:14), while also reminding us that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10), and so do not need to be judging each other now. What, then, should our conduct look like? Ephesians 4:31-32 commands, "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, together with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Later New Testament admonitions to believers say to be very careful of judging those outside of the faith, for, without the Holy Spirit in their lives, why should we expect them to be living like Christians? Our solution then is to proclaim the truth to all, not because we're RIGHT and they're WRONG, but because we've been rescued and they are lost and hurting.
Your interpretation may be different.
Posts: 354 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:No, I think it's definitely in the top ten, at least if you look at estimates of how many people are gay and what proportion of suicides are young people. If after that we want to look at the crusades and sectarian clashes, and then various forms of witch hunting, I guess those might come out on top. But I'm less certain about the witch hunting.
I'm not certain I understand what you mean, pooka. Are you suggesting that there are more Christian-related deaths from suicides, than there were from the other causes discussed?
In any case, it's an impossible question to factually argue...but given the rarity (thankfully) that suicide is, and has been throughout human history...if that is what you're suggesting, I don't think it's got much credibility.
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this comment to be accurate I decided to create a thread where the topic could be discussed, possibly with tangeants to follow.
