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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Ways to ensure I do not give you money if you* panhandle at my exit (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Ways to ensure I do not give you money if you* panhandle at my exit
The Rabbit
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In the US so many of the homeless suffer from mental illness that I try very hard not to judge anyone on the streets harshly. I've heard many anecdotes about the cadillac driving beggars, but I strongly suspect they are myths and that most of the people pulling tricks like standing one day and sitting in a wheel chair the next are likely to suffer from some type of mental illness or deficiency.

In the US, if you suffer from serious psychological problems your chances of ending up in prison or living on the streets are frighteningly high. They are the lepers of our era which I find deeply tragic.

I try to give generously to homeless shelters, food kitchens and other charities that offer help to these people. I figure this money is likely of more benefit than the loose change I might put in a beggars cup. But I also give change to beggars if I have any available. If I were better organized, I'd remember to move some change out of my purse and into a pocket when I know I'll be walking in an area with panhandlers. I don't feel safe pulling out my wallet when there are beggars around.

I know there are some homeless people who are too paranoid to accept help from shelters and the like. I'd rather give my loose change to someone who didn't need it than fail to give to someone who really did. There aren't really that many beggars in the areas where I've lived and it would hardly break me to give them all my loose change.

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Javert Hugo
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I have heard that as well - something 90% of the chronically homeless have deblitating mental issues. In the 80s there was a serious effort to get the mentally ill out of hospitals and on their own, but what happened in a lot of cases was that they were shoved out the door and left to fend for themselves.

I think about all the people that function only because of the medications, and it's not a big jump to imagine that if one were poor and sick, it's not a very long road to being homeless.

You know that saying "At least you have your health"? I think for me, it is more applicable to having your mind. Being mentally ill is probably my worst fear - I can handle anything in life, because I can trust myself. If I can't do what needs to be done myself, I know where to go for help. If that was taken away - if my brain was no longer trustworthy to myself - that's an absolute nightmare.

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Dagonee
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quote:
I know there are some homeless people who are too paranoid to accept help from shelters and the like.
Rabbit, you are very right about that. Eve and I tracked down the group that fed Eve's brother in the months before he died. Their whole operation was to bring meals to homeless people on the streets, which meant they could reach the many that would not go to shelters or soup kitchens for any reason.

The whole issue of mental illness in this country is heartbreaking to me. I know there are many who can't get the treatment they need. There are also some - anecdotally, many - who end up on the street despite the willingness of their families to pay for treatment. Without involuntary commitment, I can't think of anything that would have saved Eve's brother. The whole family has beaten themselves up unmercifully about the right words they could have said to convince him to enter treatment. Perhaps such words existed, but it's not a failing to be unable to have discovered them.

So barring a revelation about the right way to convince him, forcing him seems the only alternative. And making involuntary commitment easier scares the willies out of me from a civil liberties perspective - it's far more abusable than the criminal justice system is.

You do well to remind people of the mental illness aspect of much homelessness. Part of the problem is an inherent discomfort with mental illness that I'm not willing too judge too harshly.I think it would be better if such discomfort did not exist, but I can understand where it comes from even while wishing it weren't there. Reminders like the one you gave are always good, though.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
I have hitchhiked myself on several different occasions. Once when we had a tire blow out on the Navajo reservation,
Can I just say that if you've gotta be stranded and hitchhike from necessity, the Navajo reservation is a good place to do it.

I had a good experience when we needed help at the Navajo reservation when we were on our honeymoon-- not hitchhiking, but a cool experience.

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The Pixiest
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I'd give money to the litter guy. He's doing something. He's working in a way that benefits everyone.

We have slugging out here but we don't call it that, we just call it Carpooling. There are lots of places, especially in the east bay, to pick up carpoolers to SF or SJ. Traffic here is possibly the worst in the nation so getting to use the carpool lane is a huge boon. Though things have gotten a lot better, traffic wise anyway, since the Dot-Bomb.

Still, I wouldn't do it. I'd never put myself in harms way like that.

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fugu13
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*nods*

Organizations like Dagonee mentions are very important, and participating in them can be very eye-opening.

I was a team leader and later on the board for a student organization that was very similar, fixing food that we would then bring to the homeless in downtown Saint Louis, after which we would go to a shelter and help them serve the food they had prepared.

The range of what it means to be homeless is astounding, but most of the persistent homeless (who are luckily the minority) have some sort of mental or physical health issue, frequently the former.

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Artemisia Tridentata
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quote:
People seem to be more willing to pick up hikers trying to get back to their cars than they are to pick up generic hitchhikers.
I was driving to an Army Reserve school in Dublan CA, several years ago. It was early in the morning, Fathers Day and the family had gone to Grandma's for a vacation while I studied. I took the route over Tioga Pass and through Yosemite park, as I didn't have to be at school until mid-day. Just outside of Lee Vining I stopped for a large pack with a thumb sticking out. The hiker turned out to be a very attractive young lady who had attempted to hitchhike to San Francisco to see her Father, but had fallen short of the goal just outside of the park. I took her to Hayward where there is a BART station, and she was able to get to Dad's house on time. When I called my Bride to tell her I was safely at school, she asked how many times I had stopped to nap. I explained about the "Beautiful Blonde" traveling companion. She never did believe the story. Neither did the other solders at the school. However, it's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Wussy Actor
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This scene from Sports Night (pretty much my favorite show ever and of course it was cancelled after two seasons, much like Studio 60. What do you people have against Aaron Sorkin?) basically spells out how I feel about giving to people.


Dan: (knocking on open door) Isaac, you got a second?

Isaac: Sure. What's on your mind?

Dan: (comes in and sighs) You make a lot of charitable donations, don't you?

Isaac: I try.

Dan: Who do you give your money to?

Isaac: I used to donate money to the Democratic Party.

Dan: Not anymore?

Isaac: Well, you get your heart broken enough times, you learn your lesson.

Dan: Who do you give your money to now?

Isaac: I give it here and there. There are plenty of good causes.

Dan: That's the problem.

Isaac: Hmmm. Danny, every morning I leave an acre and a half of the most beautiful property in New Canaan. I get on a train and come to work in a 54-story glass highrise. In between, I step across bodies to get here. (sits behind desk) Twenty, thirty, fifty of 'em a day. So, as I'm stepping over them, I reach into my pocket and give 'em whatever I've got.

Dan: You're not afraid they're gonna spend it on booze?

Isaac: I'm hoping they're gonna spend it on booze. Look, Danny, these people, most of them, it's not like they're one hot meal from turning it around. For most of them, the clock's pretty much run out. They'll be home soon enough. What's wrong with giving 'em a little Novocaine to get 'em through the night?


I hope posting this doesn't sick the intellectual property cops on my butt.

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Wussy Actor
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Plus the line about the democratic party cracks me up.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Someone could feasibly kidnap me on the way home, or on the way to work; but that could happen anywhere, I guess.

For me, the convenience of slugging has overcome the theoretical dangers of it.

Being in someone's car gives them far more opportunity than being in my own, or walking down the street.

You're not a woman. [Smile] I am a big girl (in both senses) and I can take care of myself. But I would be very wary about getting in a car driven by a man I do not know.

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Tatiana
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I love that scripture that Scott quoted! I give to all panhandlers. I regard it as a superstition. If I always give to panhandlers, I won't ever have to BE a panhandler. It's my bargain with karma. [Smile]

Same with waiters, and hotel housekeepers. I am a generous tipper to anyone who performs any sort of personal service for me. Also, I straighten up so the hotel housekeepers don't have so much to do. Somehow my mother instilled in me the understanding that your true worth as a person is more honestly reflected by what the people who serve you think of you than by what your bosses think. I try to be a grateful and sensitive servee. [Smile]

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ClaudiaTherese
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I always remember the studies that have established the effectiveness of cigarette smoking as a (partial) self-medication for schizophrenia. It's cheap, can be bummed from other people, doesn't require paperwork or a regular prescription, and it helps with the psychosis. [Frown]

Mental illness is hard, hard stuff.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
I always remember the studies that have established the effectiveness of cigarette smoking as a (partial) self-medication for schizophrenia. It's cheap, can be bummed from other people, doesn't require paperwork or a regular prescription, and it helps with the psychosis. [Frown]

Mental illness is hard, hard stuff.

I just edited a medical journal where one of the articles was schizophrenia and smoking. It said those with schizophrenia were something like 5 times more likely to be smoking (and chain smoking at that) then the average person in America.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Yes, indeed.

Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone who panhandles has mental illness (or schizophrenia in particular), or that those who do have it and smoke are purely doing it to self-medicate. I don't mean to imply anything of the kind.

What I do mean to say is that I am never sure what reasons a homeless and/or panhandling person has for smoking, and I hesitate to attribute it purely to recreation, given what has been established about its use in mental illness and the prevalence of such mental illness in this population.

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DDDaysh
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Well, the scariest thing that ever happened to me was when I was like 20. My friend and I had gone to dinner, and it was dark when we got out. This guy came up to us with this sob story about not being able to afford a bus ride home. It was dark, and we had to cross the street to get to our car, so he was kinda freaking us out. Neither of us had any cash on us (or we probably would given it to him just to get him to GO AWAY), and we told him so. Then he pulls out a machine and says "Hey, I can take credit cards". At that point, we ran, and my friend pulled her pepper spray out of her purse while I unlocked the doors.

However, I generally DO feel sorry for homeless people. I like that here in San Antonio, alot of them don't just beg, but they sell papers at the intersection. At least it's an honest job, right? When I do have cash in the car, and it seems safe, I'll try to give it to them, but that's not often. What I do try to do is have bottled water in the car (also helps avoid paying for fast food drinks) and sometimes some sort of dried snack as well. I try to offer them a bottle of water and a snack. If they take it, I know they're sincere, and will probably do the same thing if I see them again. If they don't.... well, then I figure they really aren't in THAT big of need, and I avoid rolling down my windows at that intersection.

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Dagonee
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quote:
I like that here in San Antonio, alot of them don't just beg, but they sell papers at the intersection. At least it's an honest job, right?
Not always. It's fairly common for someone to take all the newspapers out of a machine after paying for one, then selling the papers. Invest 35 cents, make several dollars.

I have no idea what percentage of people who do that are homeless or would otherwise be pan-handling.

Edit: wanted to add that CT's points about self-medicating are very well taken and important to keep in mind.

[ July 15, 2007, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]

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vonk
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I like the guys that sell papers in the morning. I pretend they're Newsies and whenever I'm not watching they sing and dance. It must be such an exciting life. So I try to buy their pape's when I can.

Also, around here you can tell who's legit by the dingy Houston Chronicle aprons they wear. I guess they could steal them, but you gotta start trusting somewhere.

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Icarus
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Rabbit, JH, and Dag make excellent points about mental illness and homelessness. I have a very close relative who is homeless and mentally ill. We tried to help, but couldn't really. We tried Baker Act-ing her, but on one occasion the state decided she wasn't a danger, and on another occasion they (the hospital) felt she was, but ultimately decided it wasn't worth the hassle of continuing to pursue commitment when her court-appointed lawyer got a couple of delays (sorry, I can't remember the legalese). It was a tragic and eye-opening situation.

I wish I had something of substance to add to this conversation, but all I have is my personal anecdote.

Some of you are nicer people than I am. I used to be more generous, but I kept having family members tell me it was stupid to give to pan-handlers. I resolve to be more generous.

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MrSquicky
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A couple of friends of mine are part of an organization that runs programs for the homeless.

My friends have made the point, which they say are backed up with fancy studies and everything, that giving money to beggars not only leads to a more negative outcome than donating the same money to shelters or programs (such as theirs *nudge* *nudge*), but it can be worse in terms of effect than not giving money at all.

My solution, when someone asks me for change, I decline and then donate the amount of the change I have in my pocket to my friends' program.

I have been known to offer people food (most take it) and I'll keep a public trans token on me for people who actually look like they've gotten stuck and need to get somewhere (I've had that happen to me and it really sucks).

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Dagonee
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Squick, if you get a chance, could you find a link to some of those studies? I can't come to a firm conclusion on this myself, and additional info would be helpful.
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MrSquicky
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I'll ask them and see what they have.
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Dagonee
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Thanks!
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
My friends have made the point, which they say are backed up with fancy studies and everything, that giving money to beggars not only leads to a more negative outcome than donating the same money to shelters or programs (such as theirs *nudge* *nudge*), but it can be worse in terms of effect than not giving money at all.

Squicky, If you have a chance, I'd also be interested in looking at those studies. I'd like to see what kind of controls or comparisons they did. I'm concerned that such studies might have a built in bias because those who are homeless because of substance obuse or severe mental illness are less like to seek or accept help from such organizations. I also suspect that giving to a beggar who is mentally ill will likely have a different outcome than giving to one who is a heroin addict or one who is a teenage runaway.

With that said, I'm fully in favor of organizations that help the homeless and the poor and try to give generously to them. I'd simply like to know how solid the evidence is supporting the idea that giving to beggars is worse than not giving.

[ July 17, 2007, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Wendybird
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I personally have decided when I have the spare change I give it. I'm not going to be judged on what they decide to do with the money only for what I decide to do with what God has given me. I have given food as well. I even made some Christmas treats one year and took them to the "regulars" on this one corner. I had a friend who gave a woman who was on the corner some clothes for her kids. Personally, I give what I can give and then let it go. What they use it for is on their heads. (I do also give to charities as well when I can)
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Dagonee
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I basically agree up to a point. However, there are some reasons to make a judgment based on likely use.

For example, if one only has a certain amount to give, then giving it to someone who does not need it prevents giving to someone (or as much) who does need it.

More importantly are those instances where providing the money will enable self-destructive behavior. I haven't arrived at a solid conclusion about where responsibility lies in that situation, but if one has the means to tailor one's giving in a way that reduces self-destructive behavior, including means of discernment to allow that judgment to be made more reliably, those means ought to be considered. In that sense, I think we are responsible for how donations are used, because we are deciding how to use what God has given us.

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Mucus
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Wendybird: I would also add that some of us give for reasons quite separate from whether or not we will be judged by a deity.
In that case, it makes sense to at least have some idea as to whether one's donation is effective if only to efficiently allocate resources.

General: I will also add (although BlackBlade implied this on the first page) that outside of North America that child slavery and forced begging still exists. I myself suspect that I encountered this many times in Beijing and Shanghai in areas where many foreign/rich tourists go.

While this is probably not what Squick referred to, outside of North America one must be careful. In these cases, a donation may very well cause harm (directly) and (indirectly) subsidize an industry that profits by exploiting many.

Quick Google links:
http://www.unicef.ca/portal/SmartDefault.aspx?at=1429
http://www.seameo.org/vl/combat/6chap1.htm
(under child beggers and solicitors)

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