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I had my daughter vaginally so I had a question. If you have to have a "C" and if you have to have it early does it affect your milk coming in? I found out Wednesday that my son is already 7 pounds and I am only going to be 32 weeks tomorrow. The docs want me to get to 36 at least but I have gestational diabetes and pregnancy induced hypertension so we're playing it by ear. We feel very sure that it will have to be a "C" with his size and my blood pressure. I really want to nurse my son. I had a very hard time trying to with my daughter. I just never got any quantity. I gave her what I had for 6 weeks and felt like a failure. I am just worried that the odds are already stacked against me with my son. Does anyone have any answers or advice on this? And any hints on bouncing back from a "C" would be appreciated. I am a large woman and I've heard it's harder to heal when you're bigger, is this true or crap? Thanks!
Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Boon
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I am very large and my youngest was a c-section baby. Yes, it does affect your milk supply, but an understanding doctor and support will go a long way toward mitigating. Contact the LLL for advice regarding natural and perscription aids, and don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it.
The recovery after Boo was a lot harder than from the other two, but not unbearable. take all the help that's offered you, get up and move ASAP, and use pillows to cushion the incision site when getting up, coughing, or aything that will put a strain on your abdomen.
And for what it's worth, you're not a failure if you're doing the best you know how for your kids.
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My wife had a c-section 2 years ago and she had no problems w/ her milk supply. I think she delivered @ 36 or 37 weeks.
This was baby #5 (first 4 were vaginal deliveries) and she has a long history of good milk supply, so maybe she's not the best example of what you can expect!
She says the first 3 or 4 days were the worst as far as c-section pain. Still very sore after that, but she didn't feel as though she was going to pop open and spill guts all over the place every time she sneezed!
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I really recommend contacting LLL if you're planning to breastfeed. Breastfeeding can be difficult without support. I speak as a concerned dad who was very involved with the whole process.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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As I understand it, the biggest stimuli for increasing milk production are nipple stimulation by suckling (triggers the release of oxytocin in the brain) and relaxation. It's hard to let down if you are not relaxed.
Using a breast pump judiciously as well as putting baby to breast can address both. The baby can take what he or she needs from the breast, you can supplement with pumped milk if needed (using an alternative to a bottle to avoid "nipple confusion" if you choose), and you can ensure sufficient stimulation of oxytocin without stressing out about whether the baby is suckling enough at any one time.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Breast pumps and supplements don't help everyone, LLL can be jerks, there's an exception to everything. But you've done it before, which is in your favor, you're motivated, you're forewarned that it might be harder this time around, and above all remember that whatever is working for the baby and you is okay, whether that's part milk and part formula or all breastfed or all formula fed (my sister in law just couldn't do it after a c-section, and that's okay, too. My cousin-in-law just couldn't do it after weeks of lactation consultants, supplements, pumping, and praying after a vaginal birth. Guess what? They both have healthy, happy babies today.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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dawnmaria, I had a micropreemie with an emergency C-Section and I was able to pump for 3 months until I had to stop because of medication I was taking. Here are some things that worked for me:
-Pump right away, as soon as the nurses tell you to. It will make your stomach feel sore, but my incision never hurt when I pumped.
-Rent a hospital-grade pump. You can probably rent one from your hospital. I highly recommend the Medela Symphony. It's much better than the Lactina.
-Speak to a lactation nurse. There should be one at your hospital. If the baby has to go to the NICU or a Progressive Care Nursery, there may be one there, too. Your OB may also be able to recommend one. They can help so much. My lactation nurse was also a NICU nurse and was Aerin's admitting nurse. She was awesome.
-I took Fenugreek and Blessed Thistle, which worked okay. They're just herbal supplements, so you can get them at a drugstore, but check with your doctor before taking them. My doctor also gave me Reglan, which worked extremely well.
-I'm going to recommend that you NOT contact LLL. I had a horrible experience with them, one that I would never wish on my worst enemy. I'm sure not all of them are bad, but I wouldn't take the chance. I, personally, will never, ever have anything to do with them again.
-Drink lots and lots of water - at least 64 ounces per day. I was always parched, so this wasn't a problem for me.
-I know it's hard with a toddler, but try reading a magazine or doing something fun while you pump. It used to take me 30 minutes to pump, so I would even watch t.v. if I was home. It really helped. You don't need a special pumping bra - I used to just hook my nursing bra over the cups and it held them in place just fine and left my hands free.
-Remember, it's okay not to nurse. If it turns out that you can't, it does not make you a failure as a mother in any way. Your baby will be fine. Aerin did just fine on formula after my supply ran out and the odds were steeply stacked against her.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I am going to call a pump rental place tomorrow so I have everything lined up and can just send Hubby over when the time comes. I am going to try not to stress over this, just be as prepared as I can. I figure anything I can give my little guy will help his immune system. I am hoping for the best case scenario and am not going to freak if it doesn't happen. If I can give him the 6 weeks I gave his sister I'll be happy. She's a pretty healthy little girl!
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It gives me warm fuzzies when I hear about dads getting so involved in the post-partum care details.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Val, It makes me sad to hear about men who can't be bothered to care about things like that.
So you drive a truck, can throw a perfect spiral, and know how to use all your power tools w/out drawing blood; who cares. I want to see you change your kids poopy diaper w/out puking!!!
That's a REAL man!
When we were expecting our first, I attended a breast feeding seminar with my wife. There was one other father there in a group of about 15 expectant mothers (and he thanked ME for showing up when it was over!) As we left, I spotted 3 or 4 fathers who had been waiting out in the hall the whole time. I think they all got an earfull on the way out!
Posts: 692 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:I'm going to recommend that you NOT contact LLL. I had a horrible experience with them, one that I would never wish on my worst enemy. I'm sure not all of them are bad, but I wouldn't take the chance. I, personally, will never, ever have anything to do with them again.
I'm going to second that recommendation. It's been fifteen years and I still get upset and angry thinking about the LLL people at the hospital I delivered. Not only that, but my experience and Mrs. M's doesn't seem to be that uncommon, I hear from people ALL the time who are nothing but critical of LLL, and I'm talking about people who are pro-breastfeeding, but anti-LLL. That organization needs to work on its PR. Even the nurses at my hospital spoke disparagingly of them, calling them "breast nazis" and telling me I had the option to refuse them entry into my room, and with my second and third deliveries I made that clear from the outset and no nurse ever questioned why. In fact, with my second child, when I said LLL was not allowed in my room, the nurses' response was "Oh, you've had run-ins with the breast nazis before, I can tell."
I don't know if it's a regional thing or what, but I do hear horror stories an awful lot. You'd think an organization that well known would try harder to make sure the front line people who have contact with new mothers aren't such witches.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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And it's really sad because they have great educational materials, and I know some really great LLL reps-- but you're right, the majority of my encounters with LLL have not been positive.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I don't have any experience with c-section, but I've done a ton of self-education on breast feeding. I've been toying with the idea of becoming a lactation consultant. Anyway...the advice for nursing after a c-section is exactly the same as the advice for nursing after a vaginal birth. Put the baby to the breast as soon as possible after birth and keep on nursing on demand, even if that demand comes in clusters and seems constant. I've spoken with many women who have successfully breast fed after a c-section. Hospitals are, for the most part, becoming more understanding and if you tell them you intend to BF, they can (assuming no complications) get you the baby to nurse in the recovery room within an hour of birth.
Milk can take up to a week to come in...it did for me and I did a vaginal birth. I can assure you my son was fine, even if he lost a smidge more weight than the books say he "should" have. (He lost about 10% of his birth weight...my doctor had us come in for frequent weight checks but said things were still fine.) I say this because while milk can take 2-7 days to come in, after most normal deliveries you'll probably see it in the early half of that and with a c-section it might be towards the middle or late half. It should be all right.
Kelly Mom is my favorite resource site. Here is their c-section page:
If you do decide you need to supplement for any reason, I highly recommend staying away from bottles due to nipple confusion. You can finger feed or use a dropper instead.
I'm a regular at an on-line BF support group that you're welcome to come to for support or commiseration if you need it: www.babyfit.com (It's got a lot of pregnancy and parenting resources...scroll down the community tab for the BF support group.)
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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And while you're at it, stay away from Girl Scout leaders, pediatric dentists, and labor&delivery nurses. I've had horrible experiences with them. Also cell phone customer service representatives.
Edit: and don't let your kids take history in middle school. I've heard more horror stories about middle school history teachers than all of the above, plus LLL, combined.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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You know, I didn't even know until this thread that women sometimes have trouble breastfeeding after a C-section. I had an emergency section, but didn't have any problem with nursing. I think my milk came in after about two days, although my memory is a little bit fuzzy from that time period.
In regards to breastfeeding classes, my husband and I were the only ones who signed up for a particular session. It was kind of odd to have the instructor talking to just us.
I have no experience with LLL because I didn't need any help. However, I definitely want to second the use of their website at the least. It has a lot of good information.
posted
I have a friend who just didn't have a good milk supply, but she was able to nurse and supplement. While this idea is anathema to conventional nursing wisdom, there are some cases. If you can find a professional lactation consultant, I would reccomend that. Support groups are nice, but there are apparently obvious signs that go with this problem.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: I have a friend who just didn't have a good milk supply, but she was able to nurse and supplement. While this idea is anathema to conventional nursing wisdom, there are some cases. If you can find a professional lactation consultant, I would reccomend that. Support groups are nice, but there are apparently obvious signs that go with this problem.
I don't think this is anathema to conventional wisdom. Maybe some nazi breast feeders, but really, it's a good compromise solution under a lot of circumstances -- not just low supply (which happens in less than 1% of women) but also with a return to work and no way to pump while there. Some breast milk is always better than none.
That said, I HIGHLY doubt that the initial poster will need to supplement, even at first, since she has had success before. There are scary stories out there but really, you can nurse with a c-section just as well as vaginally. Maybe the milk takes a day or two longer to come in...MAYBE...but you may or may not even notice. Educate yourself but don't scare yourself! Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with your snarky post, dkw, but if you think we're being unfair to an organization that, just by the informal survey on this board, has similar problems all across the country, then I would beg to differ. We're not talking about collections of isolated incidents, but rather what appears to be a defect in the way LLL trains their people. If a cell phone company had bad reps because that's the way they trained them, then yes I'd warn people away from them too.
We're all referring to what we have seen as a pattern in the way this organization relates to new mothers. A pattern. That's significant enough for those of us who've been hurt by them in the past to speak up to other mothers about. A new mom is in an emotionally fragile state, and she does not need people haranguing her about her choices about what to do with her baby. Especially when those people don't really seem concerned about the welfare of the mom and child, but rather promoting their own agenda. I don't want the poster or any other woman here to go through what I did, and I WILL speak up about it any chance I get if it will help avoid that experience for even one other woman.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Belle -- I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with the LLL and I have seen that many others have had bad experiences as well, but many others have had good experiences. Every local group is different and it can be a beneficial resource. You're right -- new moms are vulnerable but there is no one resource that is always going to be pure. One of the WORST resources I have seen in general for breast feeding support are pediatricians. If the baby hiccups weird, half of them want to start the babies on formula. Also, I've heard many horror stories from lactation consultants and had a very bad experience with one myself. (She actually averted her eyes and left the room when I was in the hospital, asking for help with latching, and I started to nurse my son.)
When I went to the LLL, I found them to be a very nice group. My biggest problem with them, and the reason I did not continue going, was that they all had their kids at the meeting and it was too loud. They did do their best to answer questions, going out of their way to look up the answers if they did not know them off the top of their heads.
We all need to keep our eyes and ears open and use our own best judgment when it comes to raising our children, even during the vulnerable stage. It is a shame that there isn't much consistent support out there -- not from doctors, nurses, lactation consultants, or the biggest BF support group in the world -- however these can all be resources and I would never dismiss one because of a tendency for bad experiences or I would have to dismiss them all. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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As a complete outsider to the breastfeeding game, I went to the LLL site.
As far as I could tell, the articles cobbled together from responses in the forums were pretty helpful.
The official articles all sounded the same "Breastfeeding, yay!" note. One on this one woman's infant's failure to gain weight was heavy on the "I refuse to use formula because motherhood is not about taking the easy road and I want to be best mother I can; therefore, breastfeed.", which made me pretty uncomfortable. - The article on comforting a mother whose baby had died said to focus on how great it was to breastfeed the baby while it was still alive.
It is definitely an advocacy group - definitely there to answer "how to" and not "Should I?". If you keep that in mind, I'll bet they could be pretty helpful.
[ July 16, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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dkw, I found your post very hurtful. Particularly since I did state "I'm sure not all of them are bad," in my post.
Micropreemie moms have a very hard time nursing. Here are some things the LLL consultant said to me:
-"Low milk supply is a fallacy. It's just an excuse to quit. Any woman can breastfeed if she really wants to. Having a preemie is no excuse not to breast feed." -"Your baby has no chance without breast milk." -"Don't listen to the doctors and nurses - they're not supportive of nursing mothers." -"Good mothering is about breastfeeding, not about doing what's easiest for you." -"You should be pumping more often." (This was the day after Aerin was born and I was spiking a fever and dropping my pressure so much that they almost had to take me to the ICU.) -"I hope you're planning to co-sleep." When I told her that my baby wouldn't be coming home for months, she said it was okay if I start when she comes home. You NEVER co-sleep with a micropreemie - it's very dangerous.
This woman badgered me for more than a half hour before the nurse came in and chased her out. When she left, I cried until I threw up. Then my pressure dropped and I passed out. It was the last thing I needed after giving birth to a baby that wasn't expected to make it at that point.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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It sounds like they are great for those who know they want to breastfeed. However, way too single-minded (from stories and from the website) to be consulted in the decision of whether or not to breastfeed. Most of the statements Mrs. M quoted can be found on the website in the materials for the volunteers. I doubt she was an isolated incident - it looks like she was quoting the party line.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: dkw, I found your post very hurtful. Particularly since I did state "I'm sure not all of them are bad," in my post.
Micropreemie moms have a very hard time nursing. Here are some things the LLL consultant said to me:
-"Low milk supply is a fallacy. It's just an excuse to quit. Any woman can breastfeed if she really wants to. Having a preemie is no excuse not to breast feed." -"Your baby has no chance without breast milk." -"Don't listen to the doctors and nurses - they're not supportive of nursing mothers." -"Good mothering is about breastfeeding, not about doing what's easiest for you." -"You should be pumping more often." (This was the day after Aerin was born and I was spiking a fever and dropping my pressure so much that they almost had to take me to the ICU.) -"I hope you're planning to co-sleep." When I told her that my baby wouldn't be coming home for months, she said it was okay if I start when she comes home. You NEVER co-sleep with a micropreemie - it's very dangerous.
This woman badgered me for more than a half hour before the nurse came in and chased her out. When she left, I cried until I threw up. Then my pressure dropped and I passed out. It was the last thing I needed after giving birth to a baby that wasn't expected to make it at that point.
I'm so sorry you had to go through this!
I like Kelly Mom much better as a web resource. I posted the link and I want to reiterate it. The LLL is a bit single-minded. I think they can be great for women with normal issues, such as a c-section, but I can't believe they said those things to you.
One of these days, I should put together my own breast feeding site. I'm passionate about it -- but not a nazi. What I would have told you was to do the best you can, pump as often as you can, and that any amount of breast milk you can give your baby is good. Not to mention the fact that you were sick was probably interfering with your milk production! Sheesh....please save me from zealots and people who see the world in black and white!
I hope your baby came home healthy. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I didn't like the consultant who came to help me at the hospital- not sure if lll or not. She was so obsessed with rules. She told me I would never succeed if I didn't follow them. I didn't and once my mom showed up and my milk came in, we figured everything out. My husbandwas also very actively engaged in everything. Before my mom came, we sat up trying to figure out a position that would work for the baby and he was reading the breastfeeding books and looking at the diagrams and trying to set up pillows. It was very sweet. He also changes diapers more than I do (I take care of putting it in, he takes care of when it comes out).
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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My "favorite" LLL encounter was with the woman who came in unannounced while I was trying to sleep, I had said no one but family visitors but she just walked in, and started chatting me up about breastfeeding. Now, I had no problems breastfeeding Ems. None whatsoever. I told her that I was fine, thanks, she could leave her pamphlets and go because I was trying to rest. She pressured me to attend the LLL-run breastfeeding class. I politely declined (I should mention that I had a cracked coccyx and was in incredible pain every time I sat, stood, or tried to walk around.) She got very huffy and told me, "Fine, then, when you fail and find you can't breastfeed because it's not as easy as it seems, you'll call us."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mrs. M, I found your earlier post very hurtful. And I could quote just as many stupid statements made to me by my L&D nurse. Including while I was in active labor, which I think is probably just as vulnerable a time as right after the birth. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but to generalize that across all LLL reps when you know we have at least one who is an active member here was, in my opinion, quite rude.
Yes, there are lots of horror stories. And they are much more memorable than the "I had a problem and the LLL leader answered my question and everything cleared right up" stories. I'd bet the latter are more numerous, though.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: "I had a problem and the LLL leader answered my question and everything cleared right up"
*raises hand* - yep, I was one of those who would say that. They helped me a great deal. Not that I had major problems, but I did have questions and a good supply of LACK of knowledge, and my LLL contact helped me immensely.
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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LLL can be very helpful. But they often go from "Most babies can be breastfed" to "Your baby can be breastfed." without much more than faith. I have seen it many times, often directed towards women have successfully breastfed multiple children. I have rarely seen a LLL leader say, "You know, this might be something more serious."
My cousin's 6th baby was intolerant to all milk proteins and had to be fed soy formula. The LLL leader came into her room uninvited. We informed her that we were all set, and that between the women in the room, there were over that had been 20 babies breastfed. But the LLL leader acted like she had something to prove, and refused to leave.
If someone seeks out help, that is a different story.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jun 2006
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dkw, I'm going to have to call you on this. I think your reaction was much more hurtful, not to mention spitefully sarcastic and was totally uncalled for.
Here is exactly what Mrs. M said:
quote:I'm going to recommend that you NOT contact LLL. I had a horrible experience with them, one that I would never wish on my worst enemy. I'm sure not all of them are bad, but I wouldn't take the chance. I, personally, will never, ever have anything to do with them again.
She is talking about her own experience. She is relating what happened faithfully and sharing what she feels - she even admits that she's sure not all LLL consultants are that bad, but that she doesn't want a new mom to take the chance she'll get one that is.
She relayed her experience, related examples, and gave her opinion. All of which is perfectly called for in a thread where someone requested advice from people with experience and Mrs. M is definitely someone with the type of experience the OP asked for.
Your post however, was completely uncalled for in a thread like this. It offered nothing other than sarcastic criticism of Mrs. M, myself and others who were trying to help. You are the one being hurtful, and I admit I'm surprised because usually this is not the type of posts I expect to see from you. I always look forward to your posts because they're thoughtful and respectful of other posters. This case seems different, however. You seem to be angry at us for sharing our opinions and our experiences in a thread that asked for exactly that. I'm sorry, but I'm confused as to why you have such a problem with what we've done here. Not one word I've posted has been untrue, or posted out of malice but rather with an intent to help and give information that I think is valuable and will be of use to a new mother. Mrs. M did the same.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Belle, I’m sorry that you see it that way. I had first written a non-sarcastic post, but I deleted it because it seemed to me potentially more hurtful. I am not "angry" at you for anything, but I see a huge difference between sharing one’s own experience and recommending someone NOT consider a potentially helpful resource because one’s own experience was negative. My experience with the L&D nurse really was every bit as negative as the stories related here. The woman chewed me out while I was in the pushing phase of labor because I didn’t do things the way she told me too. And I had good reasons for the way I wanted to do it, which were in writing and approved by my doctor. And I’ve heard similar stories from dozens of friends. But I’m not about to recommend that dawnmaria not allow any L&D nurses at her birth.
I have been on the other side of that – and I think you have too. Not being given a chance because someone’s previous association with a group that I am a part of was negative. And it doesn’t hurt any less to add the amendment “Oh, I didn’t mean you. You’re an exception.”
Side note – I find it quite bizarre in these stories that non-hospital employees were able to walk into people’s rooms on a maternity floor at all. Or were these LLL people also employed by the hospital? In every maternity unit I’ve seen you needed a key-card to get in.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: Side note – I find it quite bizarre in these stories that non-hospital employees were able to walk into people’s rooms on a maternity floor at all. Or were these LLL people also employed by the hospital? In every maternity unit I’ve seen you needed a key-card to get in.
I've been wondering that, too. A lactation consultant on the hospital staff was able to come in and proved how incompetent she was, but the LLL was a group I had to call.
On the other hand, they let some Bible-thumping pain in the *** come in to "pray with us." I didn't want to be rude, but I did not want her there and did not understand why she was able to just wander through the maternity ward to pray with people.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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When I went to the doctors today for my lesson on how to mix and inject insulin, I spoke with the nurse about the breast feeding questions I've had and she was very helpful.(As have all of you! ) I wondered how my body would know to start making milk if I had a C and didn't let it figure it out by delivering. She explained that the trigger is the expulsion of the placenta. I learn something new everyday. And she talked about some of the herbal remedies to take that have been mentioned in this thread already. I am feeling pretty good about this now thanks to all of you. The booby fairy never really visited me with Leslie but I didn't know all I know now so I am very hopeful for Jack. Now if I can just find my pump! We're packed up trying to sell our house and moving out in about 3 weeks so I don't know where it went to! I've got 4 weeks to find it! The rental place is asking for about as much as one costs!
Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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As far as breast vs. formula vs. raw goat or cow, I offer up a study I once read that I hope someone here can reference. The study mentioned that the mother's milk composition changes as the baby grows, and the nutritional composition will vary according to the baby's needs from day to day, IIRC.
Can anyone reference that? We were told that in childbirth class with the most-highly-recommended childbirth teacher in Chapel Hill, but I'd still like to see a reference, please.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by steven: As far as breast vs. formula vs. raw goat or cow, I offer up a study I once read that I hope someone here can reference. The study mentioned that the mother's milk composition changes as the baby grows, and the nutritional composition will vary according to the baby's needs from day to day, IIRC.
Can anyone reference that? We were told that in childbirth class with the most-highly-recommended childbirth teacher in Chapel Hill, but I'd still like to see a reference, please.
This is a complex topic...I don't know how deeply you wish to delve into it. Short of going to a medical library and finding research papers on it, the truth is that this is just a known phenomenon. Anywhere you go, one of the listed benefits of breast milk is often that it changes in composition to meet your baby's growing needs. In fact, one of the cautions LLL has against sharing breast milk is that if you don't find a baby near the same age the composition may be wrong for that baby. Not only that, but immune factors travel through the milk and these change on a daily basis as the mother comes into contact with new things the body has to take care of. The composition of milk for premies is drastically different than that for term babies.
Here are a couple of articles I found on the composition of human milk that may have some of what you're looking for:
quote:Originally posted by dawnmaria: When I went to the doctors today for my lesson on how to mix and inject insulin, I spoke with the nurse about the breast feeding questions I've had and she was very helpful.(As have all of you! ) I wondered how my body would know to start making milk if I had a C and didn't let it figure it out by delivering. She explained that the trigger is the expulsion of the placenta. I learn something new everyday. And she talked about some of the herbal remedies to take that have been mentioned in this thread already. I am feeling pretty good about this now thanks to all of you. The booby fairy never really visited me with Leslie but I didn't know all I know now so I am very hopeful for Jack. Now if I can just find my pump! We're packed up trying to sell our house and moving out in about 3 weeks so I don't know where it went to! I've got 4 weeks to find it! The rental place is asking for about as much as one costs!
Just FYI...a lot of people don't know this but it is possible to induce lactation without even being pregnant. I'm not saying you should, but adoptive breast feeding can and is done. I learned that when I was struggling through a growth spurt with my son and I figured heck...if THEY can do it then I sure as heck could! Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: Side note – I find it quite bizarre in these stories that non-hospital employees were able to walk into people’s rooms on a maternity floor at all. Or were these LLL people also employed by the hospital? In every maternity unit I’ve seen you needed a key-card to get in.
I've been wondering that, too. A lactation consultant on the hospital staff was able to come in and proved how incompetent she was, but the LLL was a group I had to call.
On the other hand, they let some Bible-thumping pain in the *** come in to "pray with us." I didn't want to be rude, but I did not want her there and did not understand why she was able to just wander through the maternity ward to pray with people.
The LLL people at the hospital I delivered Emma at had "baby level" badges (you had to have a clearance and a badge with a specific color, different from badges on other wards in the same hospital, or be a signed-in visitor, to be on the maternity ward at the hospital I was at.) They said "Volunteer's name, VOLUNTEER, La Leche League." They were there, apparently, 1) to teach the breastfeeding class for new mothers and 2) to assist mothers because they only had 2 lactation consultants, both of whom worked only part days, and this was a hospital where about 40 to 60 babies were delivered, every day.
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quote from Christine--"This is a complex topic...I don't know how deeply you wish to delve into it."
Right. I guess what I understood the study to imply (again, I didn't look at it myself, merely heard about it in childbirth class) was that, if you were to start lactating and breastfeeding or even just expressing milk for a child, the milk composition would change to match their nutritional needs from day to day, as long as your nutritional needs were met. Also, I took it to imply that if you were expressing for/breastfeeding one baby of, say, age 2 or so, and then stopped and immediately, the next day, started expressing for another child of a much younger age, let's say, 1-2 months old, that your milk would change composition in response. Is that what studies imply/say?
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quote:Originally posted by steven: quote from Christine--"This is a complex topic...I don't know how deeply you wish to delve into it."
Right. I guess what I understood the study to imply (again, I didn't look at it myself, merely heard about it in childbirth class) was that, if you were to start lactating and breastfeeding or even just expressing milk for a child, the milk composition would change to match their nutritional needs from day to day, as long as your nutritional needs were met. Also, I took it to imply that if you were expressing for/breastfeeding one baby of, say, age 2 or so, and then stopped and immediately, the next day, started expressing for another child of a much younger age, let's say, 1-2 months old, that your milk would change composition in response. Is that what studies imply/say?
Not exactly...the composition change seems to be based on length of gestation and time since birth. So, for example, if you stopped nursing your 2-year-old and then borrowed a 1-month-old from a friend (KI don't recommend this) then your milk would still be 2-year-old milk. However, if you got pregnant again your milk would return to newborn milk for your own newborn. If you tandem nurse (nurse an older child and a newborn) you are, in effect, giving the older child milk that is more suited for a newborn.
Also, the milk doesn't change much due to the nutrition of the mom. Even a mom on a poor diet makes good milk for her baby -- although her own health is doubly at risk because her body will, for example, take calcium out of bones to make sure the baby is getting enough. One of the studies I quoted did indicate that the fat content of milk can vary based on mom's diet, though.
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I guess what I am asking is, if the child is already eating solids, and suddenly goes from eating a diet that's say, high in calcium and low in magnesium to the opposite (I picked those at random), will the mother's milk change in composition similarly, to balance that?
"Even a mom on a poor diet makes good milk for her baby"
actually, I've read that on an extremely deficient diet, this isn't true. Calves will die if their mother isn't getting good enough feed. Also, I've read of cases like this in humans in extreme circumstances. But never mind that.
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dkw, I get what you're saying and appreciate your clarification of your points. The difference, as I see it, is that while yes, some L&D nurses may not be the best, and you apparently had one that wasn't, there is no national organization of L&D nurses that trains their people to push certain points and tactics like LLL does.
Looking back at my first post, I admit I was too strong when using a word like "witches" - that was inappropriate. But I stand by everything else that I said and I do not recommend the organization to anyone, not just based on my own personal experience, but based on what apparently appears to be their agenda and the way they've trained their volunteers to push that agenda. While I admire their goal - certainly no one can argue that breast feeding isn't the best source of nutrition for babies - I do not admire the extent to which they take that and the way they treat women who have decided, for whatever reason, not to breastfeed.
Hospitals DO allow them in, and they have a reputation at my hospital (and apparently at others) for bullying new moms, especially those who've chosen not to breastfeed. It sounds as if those that have sought help from them have had better experiences. Maybe the best way to solve the dilemma is to quit allowing them to have access to women who do not request their help. Let them be on call, for whenever someone requests help with nursing, and not give them carte blanche access to maternity floors. In other words, I should not have had to make a point to exlude LLL from my hospital room. Rather, they should not be going into ANYONE'S room uninvited.
I do know there is at least one lactation consultant on this board, and I have nothing personally against her - I realize this may be hurtful for them to read, but at the same time I won't back down from saying something I feel to be the truth just because someone associated with that group may be listening. Someone who cares about their profession would, no doubt, want to hear about the perception others have so that maybe they can work to change that perception. I said in my first post that LLL may want to re-think how they train their volunteers and consultants who go into hospitals. I stand by that, I think it would be a great idea for them to do that and work on how they speak to new moms. Because this approach is apparently counter-productive - it certainly was with me. I was unsuccessful breast feeding my first and didn't even try with the subsequent babies, one of the main reasons why is that I didn't want to have to deal with any lactation consultants because my experience was so negative. I would think anyone associated with LLL would want to avoid that response in people, and so would be willing to listen to criticisms so they can improve things.
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I'd find the latter hard to believe, since it would imply psychic breasts. Which, while arguably teh awesome, probably don't exist.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I guess what I am asking is, if the child is already eating solids, and suddenly goes from eating a diet that's say, high in calcium and low in magnesium to the opposite (I picked those at random), will the mother's milk change in composition similarly, to balance that?
"Even a mom on a poor diet makes good milk for her baby"
actually, I've read that on an extremely deficient diet, this isn't true. Calves will die if their mother isn't getting good enough feed. Also, I've read of cases like this in humans in extreme circumstances. But never mind that.
LOL... I think Tom got it with his "psychic breasts" comment! No, they're good but not THAT good!
The changes to milk, like I said, are based on a lot of factors, but primarily gestational age (different milk for premies) and age of babies (different for toddlers vs newborns). It is also based on season, region, time of day, and it is different from mom to mom. Also, the immune factors constantly change as moms come into contact with new bugs and need to fight them off for themselves and their baby. No one fully understands the why of these changes, although they seem to work because time and time again breast milk is proven to surpass formula for infants.
As to the extremely poor diet part...yeah...that's true. It has to be really bad, though. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Hospitals DO allow them in, and they have a reputation at my hospital (and apparently at others) for bullying new moms, especially those who've chosen not to breastfeed. It sounds as if those that have sought help from them have had better experiences. Maybe the best way to solve the dilemma is to quit allowing them to have access to women who do not request their help. Let them be on call, for whenever someone requests help with nursing, and not give them carte blanche access to maternity floors. In other words, I should not have had to make a point to exlude LLL from my hospital room. Rather, they should not be going into ANYONE'S room uninvited.
I would expand (or maybe tweak) that a little bit. If hospitals are giving a group official access as volunteers (perhaps because they can't afford to have lactation consultants on staff but want to offer that service) then the hospital is responsible for training and supervising the volunteers, the same as with candy stripers, the book delivery folks, and the volunteers who staff the information desk.
A similar example -- one of our local (religously-affiliated) hospitals doesn't have a chaplain on staff, instead they ask the pastors of local churches to volunteer for one or two shifts a month. The hospital provides training -- not in the religious duties, where they assume we know what we're doing -- but in hospital policy and what is and isn't appropriate when acting as a representative of the hospital. If a particular pastor feels it would be against his or her religious convictions to abide by, for example, the no proselytizing rule or to respect the patients own religious convictions then that person's volunteer service is respectfully declined.
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Hospitals may let LLL members in if they are licensed lactation consultants. And after spending the last two days with a Hatrack member who is an LLL member, it seems that the hospital *shouldn't* necessarily let them in unless they are a licensed lactation consultant. And the licensing test (not directly affiliated with LLL)sounds pretty extreme too.
If feeling overwhelmed by an LLL member in a hospital, I would first ask if they are a licensed lactation consultant before going any further.
AJ (And it will probably be a week before the board member who is an LLL consultant can respond... she's actually at an LLL national conference for the rest of this week.)
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quote:I would expand (or maybe tweak) that a little bit. If hospitals are giving a group official access as volunteers (perhaps because they can't afford to have lactation consultants on staff but want to offer that service) then the hospital is responsible for training and supervising the volunteers, the same as with candy stripers, the book delivery folks, and the volunteers who staff the information desk.
A similar example -- one of our local (religously-affiliated) hospitals doesn't have a chaplain on staff, instead they ask the pastors of local churches to volunteer for one or two shifts a month. The hospital provides training -- not in the religious duties, where they assume we know what we're doing -- but in hospital policy and what is and isn't appropriate when acting as a representative of the hospital. If a particular pastor feels it would be against his or her religious convictions to abide by, for example, the no proselytizing rule or to respect the patients own religious convictions then that person's volunteer service is respectfully declined.
That is a very good system. Unfortunately, I doubt all such systems are as well planned- and thought-out. The candy stripers at the hospital I was at were rather lacking in manners, too.
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quote:I would expand (or maybe tweak) that a little bit. If hospitals are giving a group official access as volunteers (perhaps because they can't afford to have lactation consultants on staff but want to offer that service) then the hospital is responsible for training and supervising the volunteers, the same as with candy stripers, the book delivery folks, and the volunteers who staff the information desk.
A similar example -- one of our local (religously-affiliated) hospitals doesn't have a chaplain on staff, instead they ask the pastors of local churches to volunteer for one or two shifts a month. The hospital provides training -- not in the religious duties, where they assume we know what we're doing -- but in hospital policy and what is and isn't appropriate when acting as a representative of the hospital. If a particular pastor feels it would be against his or her religious convictions to abide by, for example, the no proselytizing rule or to respect the patients own religious convictions then that person's volunteer service is respectfully declined.
That is a very good system. Unfortunately, I doubt all such systems are as well planned- and thought-out. The candy stripers at the hospital I was at were rather lacking in manners, too.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who ha a problem with them. I'll never forget the one who came in my room at 4 a.m. after I had *finally* fallen asleep about half an hour before -- she wanted to know if I needed any water. I think I may have dropped an f-bomb and I'm sure I told her that if I needed any water, I'd use the call button.
All in all, the hospital I stayed in was pathetic and I think I would have been better off going straight home after birth. I'm choosing a different one next time I get pregnant and hoping that they're not all the same.
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