posted
It's been a little while now since I realized that, really, there's no God.
I guess it's time to look at what's happened.
The first thing I've noticed is how much simpler things are.
Really!
No complicated religious problems to tackle nor troubling questions about why God would allow evil. No dealings with the problem of a God that would act within a world in which the laws of nature are pretty solid, and show no evidence of changing on anything's whim. No more questions about divine mysteries or the contradictions between the many religions. No more worries about the fact that ancient Greeks really believed in their gods, that equivalent miracles to the ones in the Christian faith occur in other religions, etc. I don't need to ignore the clear and obvious answer that has been staring me in the face for years anymore.
Speaking of which, I notice a distinct dissapearance of cognitive dissonence, doublethink, etc in my mind.
I no longer need to hold two contradictory sets of ideas about the world, and try to stitch them together into a coherant whole. In my heart there was always a nagging feeling, doing so, an objection running through my mind, saying "wait, this doesn't make any sense!"
I'm not lying to myself anymore. No more does my subconscious mind yell out at random times, "There is no God, you idiot!" Forcing me to ignore myself or say a small prayer, basiclaly saying, "no, that's not what I think, God!" The discomfort I've been feeling for years in church, when people talk about God and their beliefs, etc, is no longer shoved into the back of my mind. My forcibly subconscious objections are no longer forced away. I'm free.
I guess that's the main thing. I'm free of it. It's gone, that last vestige is gone. As soon as I realized the tools of rationalism, the things Carl Sagan spoke about in his books and which I already mostly knew, I threw out every single other supernatural belief as the obvious bunk it was (psychic phenomena, ghosts, vampires, UFOs, all of it) it was only a matter of time before I finally allowed myself to look at religion in the same manner.
The concepts I had before, the creation of a God I could worship, was a God that was fundamentally different than the God many people worshipped anyway. The evil, vindictive bastard who was so insecure he'd throw people into eternal torment because their honest attempts to believe in him were inaccurate? I never believed in such a being anyway.
But the God I'd created, the God I could say "would be worth worshipping" was a creation of wishful thinking alone. He wasn't supported by the Bible anyway, and the Bible wasn't written for us regardless.
My moral concepts were totally unrelated to those of Christ or Paul or the Old Testament God anyway, just the same way most of our moral concepts aren't.
But I can be honest about it now. The Bible could be used to support my views if I cherry-picked verses, sure, but if you cherry-picked another way, you could support slavery, the annihilation of all people other than your specific group of Christian faithful, and all sorts of other evils.
Not saying that's the moral of the Bible, but people can and do use it that way.
What moral use is a book whose moral message depends entirely on what you want it to mean? What you already believe is right? It's not a very good justification, since it can justify anything if you use it from the right angle.
That's my observation. I could be wrong. But the purpose of mentioning that is to show my realization, true or not, that my morals aren't based on it.
My point with that last bit is that, really, I'm not turned evil now. My beliefs in right and wrong, good and evil, still stand. They just... don't need a god to support them. They still work just fine without it.
It's a relief, to notice that in myself. I haven't suddenly become something else.
However.
The dark side of this little deal manifests itself. Some people think of me as something else. Some people think of me as an evil entity now, because I'm being honest and no longer lying to them and myself.
A friend of mine's parents almost certainly would never let me speak to my friend again, if they found out. My friend almost stopped speaking to me (but didn't, and doesn't even find anything ill of me. I was so glad to know that!)
My parents? I don't dare tell them at this point. Certainly not while I still live with them. The rest of my family? They'd disown me as a pariah.
And everywhere on television and books and the media, I see people hostile towards my very existence. I notice it, and it pains me. I realize, they hate me! Why? Because I disagree with them! Some of them would reall ylike to see me dead, to see me suffer, because of that.
Maybe my sense of morality is different than theirs, but that sounds like evil to me. Yet even so, many would treat me ill because I disagree, if I didn't keep it a secret from all but my closest, most trusted friends.
It would become difficult and painful very quickly.
If I was less tired right now, I'm sure I could make something more complete and eloquent. But right now I'm going to go to sleep.
I'm sure I'll continue later, and probably discuss it with people.
To sum it up... it's liberating, to allow myself to see things honestly.
Yet, it's also sad. Because the majority don't agree with me. Bringing it up with any random stranger has a good chance of me being thought at least mildly ill of, if not treated incredibly negatively. My family, whom I know, would react rather badly.
It's lonely...
But even so. I've been lonely most of the time anyway. The society of my peers never thought all that well of me, and I was always isolated them at the very least psychologically.
So really, this is par for the course.
I wonder if I'll have any difficulty with marriage, since the studies show that about 50% of the American public would look ill upon their children marrying atheists...
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Interesting and very cool! I should write a companion piece for this. We could put them both together and publish them as one article.
I was around 36 when I abandoned atheism after meeting God. Life is much better for me now than before. No time for detailed reasons why, though. Got to get ready for work.
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posted
Why feel sad for him? (her?) He sounds plenty happier now that he is sure of his belief. I can feel happy for people who find religion and are happier for it. Why can you not feel happy for he who loses it and is happier for it?
Megabyte: If you're community is that intolerant it makes me worry for you for more reasons than simply the one you mentioned All I can say is hang in there. Come college you'll be fine. I've been an atheist all my life. And, growing up in a college town, I've never had any trouble at all with people being perfectly accepting of my belief. And in fact, a large portion of the people I've met were fellow atheists. That or people who payed lip service to one religion or another out of habit, but if pressed were really agnostic.
Religion never made sense to me. Most of the things you've described I've felt and recognized since day one. All of the worlds religions contain a great number of contradictions. If you take them as a whole, religion itself is one big contradiction. The only belief I know of that doesn't contradict itself is one in the universe's natural laws, sans god or any supernatural power.
The catch though, is that we do not know all of the universe's natural laws. And some of our guesses at them don't work all that well yet. Means you get to live with a lot of doubt.
The saving grace is that a belief in natural laws that are discoverable by science allows for this doubt, in fact it encourages it.
Is the belief, in part, faith based? Yeah, I have to admit it is. I have faith that the universe has natural laws, and that we can discover said laws through science. And, just as with people who have faith in one god or another, that just feels true to me.
However, the things science has thus far unearthed serve as strong rational reasons for my belief. And they are, as a whole, a hell of a lot more consistent than any of the worlds religions. And unbelievably more consistent than the world's religions as a whole.
So, while my belief is currently based a little on faith, there is hope that it will one day not need that. And the more science discovers of the world the less it is shored up by faith, and the more it is supported by reason. Which is something no religion can offer.
Hmm... didn't mean to go off on that. Oh well. I guess my conclusion would be: don't worry megabyte, you are very much not alone. And welcome to the faith of reason Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Your story is close to mine, though I was a bit older and I'm not quite as sure of the response of my family if I were to tell them.
All I would recommend is that you don't lie. If asked point blank, tell your family. But don't offer the information. I think waiting until you go to college or move out, at least, is the right way to go.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I have neuroticism and conflicts in my relationship with God, the same as I do with my husband and my children, because to me He's real, and to him I'm real, and our relationship can be complicated.
There was a time I resisted everything that was not rational because life seemed to painful otherwise. It's probably weird that I think of "Fortress around your heart" as a song about Jesus.
quote:There were times you thought or even wished that I was dead...Then let me build a bridge, forever fill the chasm, and let me set the battlements on fire.
It gets a lot easier when you get a little older and realize that you don't have to give a rip what other people think Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:What moral use is a book whose moral message depends entirely on what you want it to mean? What you already believe is right? It's not a very good justification, since it can justify anything if you use it from the right angle.
Almost anything of sufficient complexity or length could be read in many different ways, and understood to mean many different things. It's just the nature of the written word. That's why the Catholic Church holds to the theory of Authority, which allows the maintenance of a consistent, though gradually and constantly improving, understanding and interpretation of the Bible.
quote:My moral concepts were totally unrelated to those of Christ or Paul or the Old Testament God anyway, just the same way most of our moral concepts aren't...
...My point with that last bit is that, really, I'm not turned evil now. My beliefs in right and wrong, good and evil, still stand. They just... don't need a god to support them. They still work just fine without it.
It's nitpicking, but "most of our moral concepts aren't" seems like you're trying to speak for people beyond just yourself, who you couldn't possibly have any knowledge of what people's moral concepts are to do with. Also I'd be interested to hear about your beliefs that once included a god, but now don't (and you don't mention a revolution in your thoughts on morals) and still stand on their own. Beyond a situation where you once believed "some things are just right and wrong, and God doesn't want to do evil," and have now changed that to "some things are just right and wrong, and you shouldn't do wrong things", I can't see quite how such a change would be possible.
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posted
True enough. I haven't turned into a Godless heathen, running rampant in the streets and laughing at the plight of the wicked. Wait, hold on. Yeah, I have. Moderation schmoderation!
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posted
oh yeah, p.s. it sounds like you're surrounded by numpty mofo (is that too close to swearing?) religious people, excluding your family of course, who have reasonable justification for being worried about the end path of the immortal soul they believe you have, - but a place where any particular random stranger, on finding out you were an atheist would range from "being thought at least mildly ill of, if not treated incredibly negatively"
I geniunely cannot think of a single place in England where that would be the case.
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posted
Andrew W: I can't speak for 0Megabyte, but I'll be happy to relate my similar situation.
My old way of thinking was "God has rules about what is right and what is wrong, and we should follow those rules because God said to."
This became something more along the lines of, "In order for society to function, people must behave in certain ways. There is no Platonic Good which must be followed, nor Evil which must be avoided. There is no need for a divine set of rules.
There are ways of acting which benefit myself and others, and I should strongly consider acting in those ways in order to bring myself and those around me the most positive life possible. I should likewise encourage others to act in similar ways, for the greater benefit of all."
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quote:Originally posted by Andrew W: I geniunely cannot think of a single place in England where that would be the case.
Welcome to America!
Which is not to say that America is completely like that. But we are such a large country that Megabye could very well live somewhere the size of England containing mostly the people you mentioned.
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quote:It gets a lot easier when you get a little older and realize that you don't have to give a rip what other people think
In moderation.
I don't know, Mormons don't seem very moderate in this regard.
France has been quite Atheist friendly for a good long while, at least it seems so to me. Fundamentalist Christians feel persecuted quite often as well. Not enjoying cultural dominance is not the same as being persecuted.
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posted
Atheists get to have the most entertaining answers to metaphysical questions:
quote:There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Courtesy of the late, great Douglas Adams.
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quote:Atheists get to have the most entertaining answers to metaphysical questions:
Only the humorous atheists. Dawkins and Harris don't have many entertaining answers, though Dawkins does like to quote Adams.
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I have been struggling with religion for years. I have honestly tried for a very long time to believe. I was and still am to most people a professing Christian. I have even argued for Christianity on this forum, but I always had doubts, I couldn't figure out why I didn't want to share my faith with others. Then one day I figured out it was because I didn't really believe. I wanted to, but when I was honest with myself I didn’t really believe. I have seen no evidence of a personal, loving God as described in the New Testament. I have seen no answered prayers that were anything more than what I would call a coincidence. I have prayed for faith and the only answer has been silence. I have begged God to change my heart and nothing happened. So now I have pretty much given up on the topic.
Like some of you I have not told my family or friends, most of whom are born again Christians. I don’t want them to worry about me. It would break my mothers heart to know I didn’t really believe. I am not worried my family wouldn’t accept me, they would, but they would keep trying to save me. I also worry my ”coming out” would shake some of their faith which gives them comfort and purpose. I wouldn’t want to be the cause of that.
So for now I still go to church to keep up the act, and also for the social function of it. I still show up to work on the church outreach programs, and help out when I can because I believe the work they are doing is a good thing even if it isn’t God inspired.
Obviously I still struggle with it, but since I have given up on it I find I am somewhat happier. At least I am not arguing with myself as much. I hope to someday reach the same level of peace with my beliefs as Omegabyte has described.
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posted
At the risk of sounding smug, I am so grateful that my parents had no religious "expectations" of me or my siblings. They raised us to find our own path and then supported whatever that was.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: At the risk of sounding smug, I am so grateful that my parents had no religious "expectations" of me or my siblings. They raised us to find our own path and then supported whatever that was.
If I ever end up having my own family, that's what I plan on doing. I'll explain to them what I think, but they won't get any force from me.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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CMC: "God doesn't have to be what someone else thinks it is...
You can still see things honestly with God in your life.
I don't hate you, I just feel sad for you."
Your first sentence seems to understand slightly.
The thing that I don't think God is, is real.
And the reason I can't see things honestly with God there is because, deep down, I belive he's not real, and to use God in any way would be inherently dishonest. For me to say it would be a lie.
As for feeling sad for me... don't. I wasn't broken up when I realized for certain that Santa Claus isn't real, either. I just went "oh! I kinda already figured. Hmm, that settles it, cool. What interesting information on how that idea came to be!"
Of course, sure God might exist. But so might Santa Claus and the celestial teapot orbiting Jupiter. You can't absolutely disprove them, after all.
But I'm reasonably certain that none of them are real. But for any of them, give me some proof and I'll go, "hmm, really? I can't argue with that! Cool."
It's quite nice, though, not worrying about it anymore. My mind doesn't get caught up in stupid nonsensical things that don't make sense, and that I know don't make sense... because I can recognize that they're meaningless and spend my time on other thoughts.
Tatiana:
"Interesting and very cool! I should write a companion piece for this. We could put them both together and publish them as one article. "
That would require me to be a better writer, though, I'm sure.
Alcon:
" If you're community is that intolerant it makes me worry for you for more reasons than simply the one you mentioned "
To make it clear: It's not like I live in Texas, or in the Bible Belt.
However, I live in Spokane, and as others have said, it's pretty darn conservative.
As for the general public, sure there are others that have my views. But based on a combination of the beliefs most people tend to possess here, and random chance, I don't dare just mention it to a stranger, because, well, Christians don't react well, at least not conservative Christians.
It's not so much that I go out anyway, it's that I know how people were when I was a Christian, and it's too much of a hassle to go out and take that risk with every new person I meet.
As it is, btw, I've been in college, and will probably be moving away within the next year or two when I'm done with my BA, probably on film, the thing I find myself most passionate about.
I'm not a young kid, I could support myself if I wished, but instead I go to college.
At least, I'm not a young kid anymore, but when I started here a few years back I was!
"However, the things science has thus far unearthed serve as strong rational reasons for my belief. And they are, as a whole, a hell of a lot more consistent than any of the worlds religions. And unbelievably more consistent than the world's religions as a whole."
Yes. Isn't that the truth?
The thing about religion, everyone recognizes how silly other peoples' beliefs are. However, when it comes to theirs, even if they're just as silly, many refuse to see it. When you hear about some random tribe's beliefs in witches that have extra organs in their bodies which fly out and wreak havoc at night, it's hard not to smile. For a Christian, hearing, say, that a literally fatherless man, who also happens to be his own father, floated up into heaven bodily... a Christian won't look at that as odd at all. But any other religion would.
It's like people turn off... no, people DO turn off their rational abilities when it comes to these beliefs they were taught as children. I know I did!
Pooka: "I have neuroticism and conflicts in my relationship with God, the same as I do with my husband and my children, because to me He's real, and to him I'm real, and our relationship can be complicated."
Eh? You mean your relationship with your husband, or with God?
Because, it's so strange how, now that I accepted what I felt was true, how nonsensical that seems to me all of a sudden.
Or maybe I'm just confused? ???
Andrew: "Almost anything of sufficient complexity or length could be read in many different ways, and understood to mean many different things. It's just the nature of the written word."
Perhaps. At least if you throw in a bunch of books of different sources, from people who have differing and contradictory beliefs that happens. It's hard to interpret Moby Dick in as many ways as, say, the Bible.
The problem is, trying to gain any moral knowledge from the Bible is not going to go well. If you read the whole thing, you'll see a dozen competing moralities.
Of course, the Ten Commandments? They weren't for us. By "Thou shalt not kill". it meant, "Thou shalt not kill Jews, but the heathens? Have at it."
That was a matter of course, and so obvious to them they didn't bother to say it, as it was a basic assumption. My how times have changed.
"hat's why the Catholic Church holds to the theory of Authority, which allows the maintenance of a consistent, though gradually and constantly improving, understanding and interpretation of the Bible"
You assume the Catholic Church has any special knowledge or expertise. The Bible's views are contradictory, there's no way around that detail. And the Catholic Church is not by far the only church, any many, many others view the Church as completely wrong.
With no less evidence to support them, either!
Anyway:
"It's nitpicking, but "most of our moral concepts aren't" seems like you're trying to speak for people beyond just yourself, who you couldn't possibly have any knowledge of what people's moral concepts are to do with."
We find slavery abhorrent, in any explixit form.
The Bible says nothing anti-slavery whatsoever. In fact, some of the contradictory moralities explicitly like it. Others can be interpreted, perhaps, to mean we shouldn't have slaves, but it requires someone who already believes that to interpret it that way.
That's the sort of thing I mean.
And as Javert said, in response to your other post: Welcome to America!
kmboots: "Megabyte, do you want to move in with me and Strider? "
*blinks* While I appreciate it, I don't think that's necessary... I'm a college student and everything, I'm 20 years old, and it would be a hassle anyway. Thank you, though.
SC Carver: "I hope to someday reach the same level of peace with my beliefs as Omegabyte has described. "
Heh. Well, I do notice that there's no more turmoil. When telling other people in person, it can be sometimes hard to give them an adaquete answer.
But there's no internal questions. No more internal dichotomy. I have plenty of emotional stuff in other areas. But in religion, it's totally gone.
It's like... one time, I spoke to a bunch of Mormon missionairies, several times over a week. In the end, after all the complicated converstions about religion, God and the Mormon faith, and how important it was for me (to them) to see their views... well, I finally realized 'you know, I don't need this stress. This stress, this worry, this attempt of theirs to make me feel guilty and wrong and warn me of turmoil... I don't need it!' was a very uplifting feeling. Discarding unnecessary emotional baggage, acrued over several rather intense days of conversation.
The same sort of thing happened in general with God in general.
Or, to be more accurate.. due to the timing of the event, it discarded most of the baggage period, of religion entirely. I realized it was unnecessary and too complicating, emotionally. And when I finally discarded religion, I realized... I'd already thrown it all away, at that and other times. Nothing had been left of it but my desire to believe.
Anyway... thank you, and I havent' gotten to all your responses yet, sorry!
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:As it is, btw, I've been in college, and will probably be moving away within the next year or two when I'm done with my BA, probably on film, the thing I find myself most passionate about.
Oh cool. I really had no idea, so I guessed if you were living at home (which it sounds like you are..?) you weren't at college. Wrong guess obviously.
Well, when you do move out, just head to a less conservative area. Which if you're going into the film industry you're pretty much set, least ways from what I've heard about it. Good luck!
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I had a similar experience to 0meg, though it was more gradual I think. I'd spent several years contemplating the nature of God and spirituality, prayed a number of times (and in a number of manners) and eventually tired of what seemed like a futile exercise.
I gave it little thought for a few years and when I came back to the subject, I did so from a more critical perspective. I evaluated, in as much depth as I could manage, the histories of religions. I compared their doctrines, their practices, and their evidentiary claims.
I came to a few conclusions:
* There was no way to verify any religion's evidentiary claims. Mormons, for instance, suggest that a sincere prayer will evoke an unmistakable and distinct response which indicates the truth of their doctrine. I never received such a response, but even if I had, how could I determine that the response originated from outside myself? If I could determine that, how would I determine that the source was benevolent? How would I determine that the source, if benevolent, was the God that Mormons worship? I'm not picking on Mormons here. This same problem exists for many religions.
* The major religious organizations seemed to be obvious artifices of human origin. They did not seem consistent with the character of the God(s) which they preach of. They are ostentatious and overly ritualized, with much more pomp and circumstance than should be necessary for man to commune with his maker(s) and understand the purpose of this life.
* I found a strong sentiment that information that contradicts the doctrine of a religion should be avoided by the practitioners of that religion because of the possibility that their faith may be weakened. The idea that one should not evaluate new information because it may cause someone to decide that their previous position was incorrect is abhorrent to me, particularly when these institutions spend a great deal of their time trying to present new information to people with the intent that a conversion will result.
* I found that the strongest correlation between individual circumstances and religion was geographic/familial. Mormons usually have Mormon parents. Catholics usually have Catholic parents, etc. People don't evaluate everything and settle on the best choice, they claim to evaluate everything and settle on what their family, culture, and upbringing predict they will settle on. There are exceptions to this rule, but those are the minority absent heavy proselyting efforts.
* I also learned a lot about what the human brain is capable of. I learned about the various ways in which we come to believe things and the processes by which we tend to resist contradictory evidence and view neutral data as supporting our existing beliefs. It's a bit disconcerting how mailable our concept of reality can be and how commonly that concept can be demonstrably false. Given that, I became biased heavily in favor of accepting those things which are demonstrably true.
As these and other ideas gelled, I just gave up on religion all together. I decided that if there was a just and benevolent creator God up there somewhere then I owe him thanks for giving me this brain and some responsibility for the conclusions that it has reached. If he wants to reach me, he knows how to do it.
In the mean time, I don't make any provision in my life for God. I just treat people well and hope the favor is returned. I've achieved a remarkable peace since I settled into this position. I wonder if it's the same peace that a religious person feels when they "give in" to the other side of the conflict that I had experienced.
posted
"If he wants to reach me, he knows how to do it."
Yes, precisely.
I'd not mind at all if God did reach me. He certainly could, if he was God. But... I can't assume he exists anymore than I can Santa Claus.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I'd not mind at all if God did reach me. He certainly could, if he was God. But... I can't assume he exists anymore than I can Santa Claus.
And to head off an anticipated response - Yes, we know the bit about having to ask to get an answer, having to be open and receptive, having a "broken heart and a contrite spirit", etc. I've been down that road and it sounds like 0Meg has too.
Apparently there's a bit more to it than that, and there's only so much time one can spend on a difficult and frustrating task which apparently doesn't quite work as reliably as some people think.
Besides, I can't possibly spend hours on every religion's "get in touch with God" ceremony and still have time to go to work and raise a family, so I'm not inclined to give any one approach a disproportionate amount of my time.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: Besides, I can't possibly spend hours on every religion's "get in touch with God" ceremony and still have time to go to work and raise a family, so I'm not inclined to give any one approach a disproportionate amount of my time.
If you never sacrifice a fatted lamb to mighty Zeus, you'll never gain his strength in battle.
I'll feel bad for you when your lack of faith allows the armies of Poseidon to overwhelm your shores Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: Besides, I can't possibly spend hours on every religion's "get in touch with God" ceremony and still have time to go to work and raise a family, so I'm not inclined to give any one approach a disproportionate amount of my time.
If you never sacrifice a fatted lamb to mighty Zeus, you'll never gain his strength in battle.
I'll feel bad for you when your lack of faith allows the armies of Poseidon to overwhelm your shores
I sacrificed a fatted mosquito to Zeus once. No strength, but I did get a really nifty hat.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Depends. If it was handed to me by a missionary door to door, I'd write it off as coincidence. On the other hand if it appeared out of thin air in front of me to a little trumpet fan fare...
...I'd probably wonder exactly what I'd eaten that day and how'd I'd ended up on acid. Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
If it just appeared on my head from nowhere in response to a prayer? Um...yeah, that might just do it.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'm going to start warshipping Mars I think, with all this Zeus talk.* I mean, he's got the most famous Holst piece; also, he's "the Avenger" and any god that hangs out with Mrs. Peel is all right by me. *rimshot*
Personally, my parents when pressed would say Lutheran but we didn't go to church, so I guess it was just natural for me to not really believe. The only time I tried to read the Bible I got bored very quickly and switched to Heinlein.
I went to church with a friend once (Christian, though I don't specifically remember which branch). I thought it was fun in a cultish sort of way. Chanting all kinds of things and having this guy preach to you. I wouldn't want to do it regularly though, as it seems it would lose some of its charm.
*I know, Roman gods != Greek Gods.
Edit:
quote: On the other hand if it appeared out of thin air in front of me to a little trumpet fan fare...
I was listening to this while reading your post and the trumpet hit at exactly the same time as I read the word trumpet. Coincidence? I think not.
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posted
I've got a question after skimming through this:
Does believing in God (as we're calling whatever it is) here mean that you HAVE to ascribe to a particular religion? Couldn't you just believe and leave all the ritual behind?
That's sort of what I do...
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by cmc: I've got a question after skimming through this:
Does believing in God (as we're calling whatever it is) here mean that you HAVE to ascribe to a particular religion? Couldn't you just believe and leave all the ritual behind?
That's sort of what I do...
Sure. Lots of people do that, but I didn't really have any imperative to go in that direction. I went looking for... whatever... and just didn't find it. Of course, having given up on the institutional religions, one is left up to oneself to discover what the method for finding... whatever... is.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cmc: I've got a question after skimming through this:
Does believing in God (as we're calling whatever it is) here mean that you HAVE to ascribe to a particular religion? Couldn't you just believe and leave all the ritual behind?
That's sort of what I do...
The way I figure it, if there is a God but no corresponding correct religion, he already knows that there's no evidence for him, so he won't mind that I don't believe in him. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:But there's no internal questions. No more internal dichotomy. I have plenty of emotional stuff in other areas. But in religion, it's totally gone.
I'm happy for you. Really, I am. But I'm also quite envious, to be perfectly honest.
It's been about four years since I finally realized I no longer believed in any kind of god. It hasn't really made things any easier for me. I'm not less stressed. I don't feel free or enlightened. I don't have any fewer questions about the world or life or existence. If anything, I am now more stressed, more worried, less certain in what I believe. I'm not by any means a total nervous wreck, but I do spend a significant amount of time nearly every day contemplating just what it means to exist in a world where there is no God. It's essentially incomprehensible for me. I fear I will never find my purpose in this world. I fear I have no purpose. I fear I will lose everything I cherish. I fear death. I fear nonexistence.
The probable nonexistence of God has done little but complicate my life. Not that I would willingly go back to believing now. I do take some comfort in having come to this realization.
I just can't imagine how it can be so easy, so freeing, for so many of you.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I just can't imagine how it can be so easy, so freeing, for so many of you.
I had never been committed to religious explanations of purpose and promises of reward/everlasting life/etc. Having never put any real stock in that, the final conclusion that there was nothing to it wasn't distressing. The freedom I felt was, I think, primarily from the "what do all these religious people know that I don't?" feeling that I had. After concluding that the answer was "nothing", the conflict went away and I felt... free.
posted
Well, a certain comfort with the idea of nothing after death helps. I for one am kinda looking forward to just going to sleep and never waking up in about 60 - 80 years (hopefully not sooner, but so be it if it is).
Also a comfort with doubt. And the fact that I feel like I have a purpose, not based on any sort of god or divine. The purpose is one I've given myself and involves what I want to do with my life (see humanity off into space, in one way or another).
Add to all of this a cheerful acceptance of the idea that humanity just is. We're not anything more special than any other brand of life, save for the things we've managed to accomplish. Our only purpose in existing is existence itself -- that and reproducing so that humanity as a whole continues existing and evolving.
*shrug* I guess some people would find all these concepts discomforting, but they all make sense to me and frankly I find comfort and happiness in them. I really, honestly don't fear death with out an afterlife. Or death at all. The idea of nothing after you die, it's kinda comforting actually. It's just going to sleep, with out having to worry about anything ever again. I like sleep
And here's the other thing: if there truly is a benevolent god somewhere out there, much like what many Christians believe in, is he really gonna hold it against me that I just couldn't believe in him? Honestly, if he's a truly omniscient and benevolent god I can't see him holding my non-belief against me if I other wise live a basically good life. And if he's not a benevolent god, well, I'm screwed anyway. As are we all.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Religion frustrates me. It has beautiful aspects to it, such as great music, moral values, but it gets tainted and corrupted by people who twist it for their own gain and fill it with rules and the like which make no sense to me. I don't have a real sort of religion, but i believe in something, it just wouldn't make sense t other people.
When I lost my religion as a teenager, I felt pretty free.The religion I was born in constricted me and made me feel trapped. I finally had the freedom to expand my horizons a bit.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I fear I will never find my purpose in this world. I fear I have no purpose.
To get past this, you have to realize that your purpose is your own. You choose your purpose. On one hand, this is harder than the status quo; no one's going to come up and give you meaning. On the other, it's remarkably liberating to realize that you can decide for yourself what you think is most valuable, and don't have to feel guilty about it.
That said, the idea of oblivion after death scares me. But it scares me. And part of the point of oblivion is that there's not going to be any of me left to mind not being around; at the very point at which I'd encounter the horror of nothingness, I'd be unable to experience stuff. So I try not to worry about it, since it's almost definitionally irrelevant.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I say I believe in God. Sometimes I ask myself, "do I really believe?" It's a complicated question. I have my doubts, in fact, people who believe with certainty that they know one way or the other seem almost a little insane to me. How can you not have some doubts no matter which side of the fence you're on?
But these are the things I do know: when I need or want something desperately in my life my first instinct is to pray for it, and I wouldn't bother if I didn't think there was some value in doing so. I also know that if I ever do reach the conclusion that I no longer believe in God, the prospect of a world without a meaning or a purpose, and no existence after death, doesn't actually bother me. I don't need a reason to exist, I just do. And if death is just the complete end of existence, it's not like not existing will be unpleasant. Think of all those eons of not existing that we experienced before we were born! In fact, sometimes it's the idea of an afterlife that scares me a little. Even if it's Heaven, have you ever really thought about living for ever.... and ever... and ever... and knowing that you'll ALWAYS exist, even if you grow tired of it all?! Sometimes when I lie in my bed at night I really think about the concept of eternity and it's a little bit unsettling. However, I tell myself that if Heaven is real, existence there is so perfect that one never grows tired of it or wants it to end, and it's just that my human mind can't conceive of it now. Here's hoping I'm right!
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
"t's been about four years since I finally realized I no longer believed in any kind of god. It hasn't really made things any easier for me. I'm not less stressed."
Normal things are just as stressing, to be sure. Just... no stress from religion on my end. No worries about God or what God wants or anything.
" I don't feel free or enlightened. I don't have any fewer questions about the world or life or existence."
I still have tons of questions. However, they aren't about religious things, but about the concrete. "How does the sun do x?" That kind of thing. And if there are no answers, well, I'll be patient.
"If anything, I am now more stressed, more worried, less certain in what I believe. I'm not by any means a total nervous wreck, but I do spend a significant amount of time nearly every day contemplating just what it means to exist in a world where there is no God. It's essentially incomprehensible for me."
To exist in a world where there is no God isn't too hard. Just look around! That's the world with no God. A universe that acts exactly as it should if it was completely neutral to our existence, our sufferings and our joys.
We just are. The chances of you existing were unbelievably low... but you did come into existence, since the chance was not zero. You don't have to do anything special in such a world.
Just exist, and enjoy the fact that it was you that came into existence, and not one of a million other potential people that did.
In other words, congradulations! You won the lottery! You can do as you will, do as you enjoy, so go and do that and enjoy that.
"I fear I will never find my purpose in this world. I fear I have no purpose. I fear I will lose everything I cherish. I fear death. I fear nonexistence."
There is no intrinsic purpose. But that's okay. I'd rather not have a purpose assigned to me by an outside agency anyway.
Choose what you want to do with your time, and do it. The time is yours to do with as you please, yes?
In this world where the universe doesn't care, nothing will ever last forever. Entropy will eventually rule the day, and, in the far future, there will be nothing but nearly static void.
The fact is, you live now, you exist. You won't always, but you do now. Chances were you wouldn't have existed at all, but you get to. Clutch it tightly. But you won't have a choice when you lose it. You have a choice of what to do now, though.
As for nonexistence... you didn't exist for billions of years. That wasn't so bad, was it? This will just be that again, and once again, not so bad.
"The probable nonexistence of God has done little but complicate my life. Not that I would willingly go back to believing now. I do take some comfort in having come to this realization.
I just can't imagine how it can be so easy, so freeing, for so many of you. "
eh. You get used to it. Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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All I can say is hang in there. Come college you'll be fine. I've been an atheist all my life. And, growing up in a college town, I've never had any trouble at all with people being perfectly accepting of my belief. And in fact, a large portion of the people I've met were fellow atheists. That or people who payed lip service to one religion or another out of habit, but if pressed were really agnostic. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And welcome to the faith of reason ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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