posted
My next door neighbor has decided to build up the slope in his back yard to pour a concrete pad which he intends to build a shed on. That's all hunky dory but, while he's built a hefty rebar-reinforced concrete retaining wall for the downslope portion of his pad, he's using our 1/2" slat cedar fence for the side wall.
Seeing our fence bulging out from the weight of the gravel backfill he was using, we suggested that this was not such a great idea. I came home today to find that he'd dug out the gravel, laid cinder blocks against the fence and filled those with gravel. I'm still rather underwhelmed.
Does anyone here have the expertise to tell me whether I should be worrying about this? Everything I've read about cinder block retaining walls indicates that they should be on concrete footings, filled with concrete and reinforced with rebar. His are sitting on earth and filled with gravel.
He didn't seem very interested in talking about the matter. We intend to call the city tomorrow to see if there's anything they can do for us.
posted
Odds are high that he can't legally build a shed using the fence as part of the structure. Or build anything against the fence which affects its integrity. Also many localities have a minimum clearance distance between any buildings and the property line. Additionally, there often are public easements/rights-of-way to allow for electricity/telephone/etc companies' access through the property which forbid building anything permanent (other than a fence) within several feet / couple metres of the property line (or at least one of the sides).
Depending on the size, it may not be legal to build that shed without a permit. Especially if the shed is permanent (ie hasn't been specificly designed to be taken apart to be moved) or the pad is of such size and construction as to be considered permanent (ie one would have to destroy the pad to remove it).
In some localities, building a pad larger than a legally-given maximum-size in-and-of-itself may trigger the legal necessity of informing the relevant governmental body that the property needs a new appraisal for property tax revaluation.
posted
Can you provide some more info? How high is the fill placed against your fence? Why gravel and not sand? What kind of concrete retaining wall is he using on the downslope? Does the retaining wall allow drainage or is any water that builds up suppose to drain through your fence?
I'm an engineer by the way.
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posted
It's about 4' above the base of the fence at the highest point. No idea why gravel, not sand. On the downslope, it's an 8" thick, 4' tall concrete wall with some rebar sticking out the top. I wasn't there when it was put up so I don't know what the rebar structure is like inside or if there is any sort of footing at the base, but there's one vertical piece of rebar coming out about every 5 feet. I didn't see any provision for drainage, so I assume the water will be coming my way.
We told them last night that we need a commitment from them to work with us to get a proper retaining wall built or we would need to have a city inspector come out to put our minds at ease that his current design was safe. After expressing their annoyance at receiving an ultimatum, they agreed to not go any further on this until we work something out.
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posted
I'd have a city inspector come out regardless. You don't want that kind of work done, when it could affect your property value, unless the guy has a permit to do it properly.
And if it doesn't get documented now by the city, and you are aware that it is happening, you may have less legal recourse later should something Very Bad happen.
It's one thing if they decide to do electrical work on their own and burn their own house down, but causing a possible landslide onto someone else's property is Not Cool.
(and the fact that his first design was so crappy means he doesn't know what he's doing.)
(I'm only a civil engineer by osmosis, as I've lived with one for my entire life, I'm really a chemical/mechanical engineer.)
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posted
I've got a fairly good sense of what constitutes an adequate retaining wall at this scale, so as long as he's willing to follow my advice, I'm willing to look the other way on permitting and inspection because at that point the perceived risk of collapse will have fallen below the risk of alienating our neighbors.
I may still pay a for private engineer to come out, but bringing a city inspector out may cause more grief for both our neighbors and ourselves than is necessary. We both have a few zoning and code violations in our yards, but not anything that compromises safety. For instance, we have chickens in our yard - not allowed in our city. He's got a concrete pad poured on designated wetlands.
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posted
What aspectre and BannaOj said, especially these:
quote:Odds are high that he can't legally build a shed using the fence as part of the structure [but I'd add -- "without your permission"]. Or build anything against the fence which affects its integrity.
quote:I'd have a city inspector come out regardless. ... And if it doesn't get documented now by the city, and you are aware that it is happening, you may have less legal recourse later should something Very Bad happen.
I have no engineering background whatsoever, but I'm officially Appalled at the Moxie. What a nasty thing for you to have to deal with.
It's so embarrassing to have to work to get across to someone that he or she is, y'know, being a rotten, inconsiderate, appalling jerk.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I may still pay a for private engineer to come out, but bringing a city inspector out may cause more grief for both our neighbors and ourselves than is necessary. We both have a few zoning and code violations in our yards, but not anything that compromises safety.
Sure, I can see your point. I would draw the line at safety, too.
I wonder, though, what will happen to your property value if the washoff creates a serious problem in your yard. Once the matter is done, it would be awfully hard to get it fixed. That's why I think (in my uneducated, knee-jerk opinion ) that at least a private formal inspection would be worth it. I think he should pay for it, or at a very minimum, split the cost with you.
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posted
Make sure that the private engineer isn't legally bound to notify the city in the case of structural code violations.
The concrete pad poured on designated wetlands will give him major problems if he tries to sell the property, that's for sure. (You aren't in Illinois are you? I know about wetland headaches in detail in this state)
I guess it depends on your location, obviously you are rural enough to be able to get away with chickens in your yard to begin with. Chickens, however, are easilly removable items, concrete structures are less so. And if he's encroaching on city property easements you could have problems when selling your own house.
quote:It's so embarrassing to have to work to get across to someone that he or she is, y'know, being a rotten, inconsiderate, appalling jerk.
Especially when this neighbor has been so great until now. When we got in a tiff with another neighbor recently (and tiffs are not a problem for us, that was the only tiff in 10 years living here), he organized a cul-de-sac barbecue to help us get over it. The other party to that tiff didn't show up, but it was a very nice gesture.
Unfortunately, this neighbor tends to react kind of emotionally to adversity and has trouble separating his frustration with the situation from those who bring the situation to his attention.
He also doesn't have a lot of money, which has been a sore spot for him recently as he wants his wife to be able to quit her job and take care of their new baby at home, but they cannot afford for her to do so.
So now, he sees us as unreasonable bad guys who are making him dig deeper into his empty pockets to resolve something that he doesn't view as being a problem in the first place.
I can completely understand his position, but that doesn't make it any easier to get through to him.
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posted
Ahhh. Well, I will send you all the good, patient, bottomless-well-of-fortitude vibes I can. Good on you for walking the hard path: addressing the issue, but still maintaining perspective and respect for his dignity.
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posted
We're in Utah. We've observed a few home sales along the wetlands in this neighborhood, and have been party to one other than our own. Most people seem to be unaware of the wetlands restrictions and I don't believe that any inspections of wetland compliance have been required prior to sale. My sense is that someone would have to complain to trigger regulatory action.
We are pretty rural, at least our backyard is. Everything to our south/west is pasture and wetland until you get to the lake about a mile away. I am reasonably confident that there are no city easements long the sides or rear of the property.
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Ok, get the private engineer to come in, and the drainage situation is really bad then have him report it city instead of you. That way you are the good guy because you paid for the opinion out of your own pocket, and then the city and the engineer become the bad guys, and you can commiserate with him over how stupid the city laws are.
Gives you just enough distance that hopefully he won't blame you directly quite as much. AJ
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posted
While I am not a civil engineer nor a landscaper, all of my experiences with retaining walls (actually walls of any kind) is that they need concrete footings (at a minimum).
The most worrisome thing to me is the drainage situation. Any type of modification to the base topography of a yard needs to account for (or preserve pre-existing) drainage away from structures (including the footings of walls).
It sounds like having the city come take a look at it is probably your best option, since this guy seems to be inexperienced and uninformed.
[edit:] Do you happen to know anyone who is a landscaper or civil engineer that could perhaps offer advice to you and your neighbor?
quote:While I am not a civil engineer nor a landscaper, all of my experiences with retaining walls (actually walls of any kind) is that they need concrete footings (at a minimum).
Some types do not. The "gravity wall" type which uses blocks which have a lip at the back can be built on compacted gravel, but they work on a different principal than concrete or masonry walls which must be physically coupled to a concrete footing.
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posted
A 4-ft wall is not that big, but the way he has it now isn't going to hold. Even the concrete block wall on the back isn't going to last that long if he only has rebar placed every 5 feet. You're right in knowing that you're fence isn't going to do the trick. BTW, a wall footing is there to support the weight of the wall itself and prevent setting. It doesn't really keep it from overturning. For a concrete block wall, I would recommend it, but I put in a wall using retaining wall blocks and didn't bother
It's hard to say anything about possible drainage problems. If the natural ground is pretty sandy, any water might just infiltrate right into the soil below the fill and never affect you.
If you have an engineer come out, will your neighbor listen to any suggestions he might have? I would recommend that you look for a geotechnical engineer.
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quote:If you have an engineer come out, will your neighbor listen to any suggestions he might have?
We won't let him go forward until we feel it is safe. If an engineer tells us it's unsafe, we will tell the neighbor to fix it. Our only real leverage, beyond appealing to his good nature, is the threat of bringing the city out. So far that seems to be effective.
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posted
Another suggestion... if you have a digital camera, take lots of pictures. You can use those as evidence later should you need to. But try to do it without the touchy neighbor observing, if possible.
posted
I did a careful reading of the city zoning code and found that no accessory buildings are permitted within three feet of a property line. With that, I can shut him down completely on this project if I need to as his ultimate goal is to build a shed on this pad. Also, there has to be 6 feet between buildings and he already has a shed just adjacent to the pad.
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posted
In theory, even if one is not notifying the city, one should attempt to follow the code, otherwise he will almost certainly have to pay a penalty to the city should he try to sell his house.
(The freestanding garage of the house we purchased was too close to a property line and the seller had to pay a pretty hefty fee to the city as a result.)
quote:Originally posted by MattP: My next door neighbor has decided to build up the slope in his back yard to pour a concrete pad which he intends to build a shed on...(H)e's using our 1/2" slat cedar fence for the side wall.
Let him build the shed. Then, remove that section of the fence. Pretend that someone built a tiny little branch of Home Depot just for you.
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posted
He's using the fence for the side wall of the retaining wall, not of the shed itself. The shed will be rising well above the fence. It'll look aweful, but that's a separate issue.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: In theory, even if one is not notifying the city, one should attempt to follow the code, otherwise he will almost certainly have to pay a penalty to the city should he try to sell his house.
I agree. It could even be worse. They have the authority to require that he remove the shed. That could be much more expensive than a potential fine.
Anything that I build that is going to be of substance will definitely be built to code, even if I'm not going to bother with permitting. I'm a big fan of fixing problems when they are cheap, and it's usually cheaper to do things right at the beginning.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Another suggestion... if you have a digital camera, take lots of pictures. You can use those as evidence later should you need to. But try to do it without the touchy neighbor observing, if possible.
AJ
Excellent suggestion, as MattP noted. And this will brand me as a paranoid crackpot (unclean! unclean!), but if the timing is at all an issue, put the front page of a current newspaper in the photos.
However (ah, the trials of paranoia), this can make you seem a dingbat and be used against you as evidence you knew sumpin' was fishy about that shed. Casual "oh hey, my kid happens to be standing in front of that shed the neighbor is building!" photos might be better for all sorts of reasons. Can you get your kids to play in the sprinkler in that side of the yard?
*tips tinfoil hat
quote:Originally posted by MattP: Anything that I build that is going to be of substance will definitely be built to code, even if I'm not going to bother with permitting. I'm a big fan of fixing problems when they are cheap, and it's usually cheaper to do things right at the beginning.
I like the cut of your jib, sir.
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quote:He also doesn't have a lot of money, which has been a sore spot for him recently as he wants his wife to be able to quit her job and take care of their new baby at home, but they cannot afford for her to do so.
So now, he sees us as unreasonable bad guys who are making him dig deeper into his empty pockets to resolve something that he doesn't view as being a problem in the first place.
If he is short on money, then why the heck is he building a shed? The materials aren't diamonds and saffron dust, but they aren't free, either.
Is he a hoarder that needs more room as he accumulates more stuff from sinking deeper into untreated depression that prevents him from making decisions about what to get rid of?
(That's my childhood encapsulated in a single sentence.)
---
Edited again to answer: Nope, don't answer that. The question amounts to idle gossip. So, a nutcase and a gossip -- my, my, am I not progressing magnificently? *rueful look
quote:If he is short on money, then why the heck is he building a shed? The materials aren't diamonds and saffron dust, but they aren't free, either.
I thought the same thing. His house is pretty small and had been owned by a single woman for several years. She got married to this guy and he moved in within the past two or three years and they had a baby together. The garage had already been converted into a living room, so they have no proper garage space for storing the misc. junk you usually put there.
I understand why he wants a shed, though I don't know how he's financially justifying it. I also want a shed and I make a lot more than he does, but I can't financially justify it at this point.
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posted
I want a shed and I don't even have a yard right now. They're just darn useful things, and the smaller your means the more you can use one...to store the stuff that more successful people can put in their large basements or garages. Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I would love a shed. I am currently living in an ~360 square foot apartment (including the kitchen, bathroom, and closet). Heck, I'd be thrilled with anything. Give me another shelf on the wall, and I'd dance a jig.
But from my (crabby, misanthropic, surly, and crackpotly) perspective, a shed is the sort of thing that if you can't afford to build it safely and without endangering your neighbors or their property, then you just don't get one.
They are useful -- renting things is often more expensive than just buying them on sale or secondhand. But really, there is little we cannot do without, and much that (I think) we'd be happier without. And this guy apparently already has one shed ("his ultimate goal is to build a shed on this pad. Also, there has to be 6 feet between buildings and he already has a shed just adjacent to the pad."), which surely would suffice for the necessities (lawn mower, rake, basic car stuff). Ah, well, who am I to say. I'm just busy getting indignant on MattP's behalf. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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I looked closely at the wall again today. It turns out that the cinder blocks that he's placed do not go all the way to the bottom of the fence. There's about 10" of gravel along the entire base of the fence, then cinder blocks the rest of the way up. The cinder blocks are not secured in any way, they are just stacked on each other and filled with gravel.
When we talked to him and his wife this evening, they rattled off a list of 6 people who they had described the wall to, with varying degrees of engineering experience, who had all, they said, signed off on it.
Given that the neighbors were unaware of the bare gravel under the blocks (they suggested we could go ahead and remove that fence panel - right), I doubt anyone that they spoke to understood exactly what was going on.
We insisted that an impartial engineer sign off in person. He's going to have his uncle (yeah, I know... just wait), who allegedly has been an engineer for 20+ years. Should he claim that it's safe, I will remove the fence panel in his presence. Simple physics says that 10" bottom layer of gravel will pour out, the blocks will drop, and a great deal more gravel will follow them out.
We also plan to call the city inspector in the morning to seek his advice.
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posted
OK, so the blocks he placed not only don't go all the way to the bottom, they're only stacked up? Stacked blocks do not resist soil pressure. Blocks that are mortared don't do that great of a job at that height without some type of reinforcement.
<-- his wall would not even be able to withstand this
quote:When we talked to him and his wife this evening, they rattled off a list of 6 people who they had described the wall to, with varying degrees of engineering experience, who had all, they said, signed off on it.
Then have any one of them actually sign and seal, as a Professional Engineer, a letter detailing what the design is and that it will work. I have a feeling none would do that.
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posted
That's beginning to be what I would consider going to far, considering that it would not cost you anything to call a city building inspector.
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posted
The thing is that I'm not convinced that the city is going to do a rigorous evaluation. When the city builds retaining walls, they contract the work out to a large local engineering firm.
Because it's not technically a code violation to build a wall under 4' tall using whatever methods you feel like using, the city inspector can just say "if it fails and encroaches on your property, he has to pay for it." We already know that.
What we want to determine, and I think this requires someone with specialized knowledge, is what the failure mode will be. If it's going to be gradual encroachment, we can let it go and go after his homeowner's insurance when that happens. If it's going to be a catastrophic failure, we'll have to take more immediate action.
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posted
Yeah, but since the point of building the wall is to put in a pad for a shed that is against the building code, the inspector telling him that would make the wall moot.
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posted
The inspector can't do anything about a building that isn't there yet and I can point out the setback restriction to the neighbor if I want to go that route. An explicit threat to report future setback violations might motivate him to re-engineer his wall, but that could get really ugly. I'm keeping that card in my pocket for now.
I'm hoping that a proper inspection by a credentialed expert will convince him to do the right thing. I'm also willing to be reassured by that expert that there's nothing to worry about. Either case is worth a couple hundred dollars to me. Yes, I've got better things to spend the money on, but I've also spent much more money on much less useful endeavors in the past.
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posted
I was wondering about the "why is he building a shed if he's broke" bit too. It seems counter intuitive, but I know that I am firmly in the "N" camp of Meyers-brigs and not the "S" camp at all.
The "wall" isn't really a wall, but a foundation component, to a larger structure and I think that needs to be emphasized with any and all city inspections. It has to be viewed in that light, not as a "wall" unto itself.
And most cities contract out the work to an engineering firm, so that isn't unusual, but there should be at least one engineer employed by the city itself, if it is a large enough city, to ride herd on the contractors.
quote:Originally posted by MattP: We insisted that an impartial engineer sign off in person. He's going to have his uncle (yeah, I know... just wait), who allegedly has been an engineer for 20+ years. Should he claim that it's safe, I will remove the fence panel in his presence. Simple physics says that 10" bottom layer of gravel will pour out, the blocks will drop, and a great deal more gravel will follow them out.
I'd suggest that if it (by some bizarre alignment of the planets) manages to hold up temporarily, then have that uncle sign off on hard copy of plans as zgator suggests ...
quote:Originally posted by zgator: Then have any one of them actually sign and seal, as a Professional Engineer, a letter detailing what the design is and that it will work. I have a feeling none would do that.
... and make sure he signs it with the correct job title (zgator, would the proper title be "Professional Engineer"?).
Minimally.
Get someone's sweet bum on the line in writing who has something to lose, either by falsifying credentials or by being later proven wrong by gravity. At least then there is something to take to small claims court (goodness forbid) should catastrophic damage or irreconcilable differences occur.
quote:Originally posted by MattP: We also plan to call the city inspector in the morning to seek his advice.
Great. That too. Even if he/she can't comment on a building not yet made, there might be some useful advice to get.
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quote:... and make sure he signs it with the job title correct (zgator, would the proper title be "Professional Engineer"?)
Licensed professional engineers have seals that indicate the nature of their license. They are supposed to use these seals on any document which they take professional responsibility for.
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posted
Even if it isn't stamped with a seal, a signature of a professional engineer where he puts the letters "P.E." after his name, is generally legally binding in the engineering sense.
To clear what's currently being used as storage space inside the house to make room for the baby: babies grow past crib-sized. Besides, stacks of stuff become ever more dangerous as a child learns to crawl, then toddle, then climb.
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posted
If you don't mind where it's being built, seems like it'd be as cheap or cheaper to buy the extra materials needed to build the shed in the manner that you would feel comfortable with than to hire an engineer.
I mean spending money yourself to force another person to spend about an equal amount of extra money just seems wasteful.
Think in terms of building that wall facing your property as being the same as improving your own fence. It ain't exactly, but thinking of it that way makes it more pleasant to spend the cash. And spending a little cash to help out a neighbor is a LOT more pleasant than having friction with that neighbor.
posted
I've offered to help him get a proper wall built. He is not interested. This is and always has been a very personal thing for them. We are doing everything we can to not make that the case for us as well. For us, it's about the wall. For them, it's about us.
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) that at least a private formal inspection would be worth it. I think he should pay for it, or at a very minimum, split the cost with you.
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<-- his wall would not even be able to withstand this ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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