posted
China is attempting to preempt the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama via a law requiring government permission to reincarnate.
This could conceivably lead to 2 Dalai Lamas: one pre-certified by the Chinese government, the other chosen by Tibetan monks. Kind of like the Pope/ Antipope fights between the Holy Roman Emperors' choices and the Church's choices.
The only fair and rational way to settle it: a pay-per-view Cage Match when the Lamas turn 18. Dibs on the action-figure concession.
Thomas Wolfe was right: reality is far stranger than fiction.
quote: China regulates Buddhist Reincarnation By Matthew Philips Newsweek Aug. 20-27, 2007 issue - In one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is "an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation." But beyond the irony lies China's true motive: to cut off the influence of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual and political leader, and to quell the region's Buddhist religious establishment more than 50 years after China invaded the small Himalayan country. By barring any Buddhist monk living outside China from seeking reincarnation, the law effectively gives Chinese authorities the power to choose the next Dalai Lama, whose soul, by tradition, is reborn as a new human to continue the work of relieving suffering. At 72, the Dalai Lama, who has lived in India since 1959, is beginning to plan his succession, saying that he refuses to be reborn in Tibet so long as it's under Chinese control. Assuming he's able to master the feat of controlling his rebirth, as Dalai Lamas supposedly have for the last 600 years, the situation is shaping up in which there could be two Dalai Lamas: one picked by the Chinese government, the other by Buddhist monks. "It will be a very hot issue," says Paul Harrison, a Buddhism scholar at Stanford. "The Dalai Lama has been the prime symbol of unity and national identity in Tibet, and so it's quite likely the battle for his incarnation will be a lot more important than the others."
posted
No offense if you're not into the whole non-brevity of life thing.
Given China's draconian history of enforcing their "One Couple, One Child" policy, they could force Tibetans to sign a document affirming that their unborn children are NOT the Dalai Lama. Or something similar.
Which wouldn't prevent a reincarnation but might count as a bizarre propaganda victory, at least to a totalitarian.
Who knows what they plan to counter a neo-Dalai? When you attempt to legislate the sublime with the ridiculous, anything is possible.
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posted
So, is it possible that the parents of the future reincarnated Dalai Lama could just lie and say he isn't? What would they do if the Dalai Lama broke the law?
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posted
I wonder if there is good job security in enforcing a law that can never actually be proven to have been broken, ever Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Savetibet.org has a much more complete article on China's permits for reincarnation, including an English translation of the law. It's not just about the Dalai Lama like I thought, but other lesser lamas too (called "living Buddhas" in the law. )
quote: Article 10: When the reincarnating living Buddha is installed, a representative of the approving authority shall read out the documents of approval, and the corresponding Buddhist Association shall issue a living Buddha permit.
Living Buddha permits shall uniformly be issued by the China Buddhist Association and reported to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.
Article 11: Persons and units who are responsible for being in contravention of these measures and who without authority carry out living Buddha reincarnation affairs, shall be dealt administrative sanction by the people's government religious affairs departments in accordance with stipulations in the "Regulations on Religious Affairs"; when a crime has been constituted, criminal responsibility shall be pursued.
posted
I have the feeling that Buddha would laugh his chubby little belly off at the thought that someone might need permission for Enlightenment. Or for reincarnation. Maybe there will be a cosmic sense of irony, and the new Dalai Lama will eventually be born to a pair of Buddhists--in America. They won't find him for years.
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quote:Originally posted by Morbo: This could conceivably lead to 2 Dalai Lamas: one pre-certified by the Chinese government, the other chosen by Tibetan monks.
It's even trickier than all that. A key player in the usual selection/discovery process for the Dalai Lama is the Panchen Lama, and there are already two of those: the Chinese government's choice, and the Dalai Lama's choice... the latter of whom is in Chinese custody.
quote:Maybe there will be a cosmic sense of irony, and the new Dalai Lama will eventually be born to a pair of Buddhists--in America. They won't find him for years.
As I remember, the Dalai Lama made an official statement declaring that he would never be reincarnated inside the People's Republic of China or any territory controlled by them.
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posted
If either Dalai Lama attempted to settle the dispute with a cage match both would be disqualified from being the de facto Dalai Lama.
This is not surprising to me, but the Newsweek article was sufficiently hostile towards the Chinese government to the point that I need not add anything.
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quote:Originally posted by Epictetus: ... he would never be reincarnated inside the People's Republic of China or any territory controlled by them.
Of course he has exactly as much say in this as the Chinese government does
Actually for about the last 600 years it has been believed that the Dalai Lama controls to some extent, possibly completly, the body he reincarnates into.
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posted
*shrug* The Chinese government has believed for roughly a week or so that it can control lama reincarnation in China. However, since the length of time for a belief has very little to do with the validity of the statement, both assertions seem equally plausible to me (with lack of any evidence either way).
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posted
In his wisdom the DalaiLama had forseen this event long ago, and has already preincarnated as RichardGere.
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posted
Thanks for the info, Shmuel. I followed your link. According to wikipedia, the Panchen Lama recognized by the Dalai Lama is the youngest political prisoner in the world, arrested by the Chinese when he was 6 and held ever since. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima
It's just pathetic when a government sees a 6 year old as a threat.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Tibet is the source of the ten major rivers in Pakistan, India, Burma*, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, and China. Somehow I can't see the US giving up control of the Mississippi&etc to a group of monks.
* The military dictatorship's choice of "Myanmar" is as irrelevant as calling the UK "Hogwarts".
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug* The Chinese government has believed for roughly a week or so that it can control lama reincarnation in China. However, since the length of time for a belief has very little to do with the validity of the statement, both assertions seem equally plausible to me (with lack of any evidence either way).
But certainly you can see that if there is truth to who the Dalai Lama is, it's more likely that HE would have control over that sort of thing then the Chinese government. But hey I'm all ears to alternate theories as to why the Chinese can control it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug* The Chinese government has believed for roughly a week or so that it can control lama reincarnation in China. However, since the length of time for a belief has very little to do with the validity of the statement, both assertions seem equally plausible to me (with lack of any evidence either way).
But certainly you can see that if there is truth to who the Dalai Lama is, it's more likely that HE would have control over that sort of thing then the Chinese government. But hey I'm all ears to alternate theories as to why the Chinese can control it.
Blayne, there's your cue!
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posted
Honestly, this seems like a very feeble attempt by the Chinese Government, it won't make much of a difference in the way Buddhism is taught or practiced. All this means is that Living Buddha's just have to keep their mouth shut when the decide to reincarnate...who's to be the wiser?
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posted
Coincidently, it seems far more profitable to decide the Dalai Lama with a Reality TV show contest than a cage match. Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Morbo:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug* The Chinese government has believed for roughly a week or so that it can control lama reincarnation in China. However, since the length of time for a belief has very little to do with the validity of the statement, both assertions seem equally plausible to me (with lack of any evidence either way).
But certainly you can see that if there is truth to who the Dalai Lama is, it's more likely that HE would have control over that sort of thing then the Chinese government. But hey I'm all ears to alternate theories as to why the Chinese can control it.
Blayne, there's your cue!
I'm not touching this with a 50 foot pole, I have my opinion on the matter and all I can say is: "politics"
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posted
From the thread title, I totally thought this was about some online game. I'm actually slightly disappointed . . .
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posted
As someone who was raised Tibetan Buddhist (no longer practicing) and knows a number of exiled Tibetan monks, this issue touches a sensitive area for me.
I think all I want to say is that BlackBlade is doing a bang-up job of analyzing the issue, and is displaying a really admirable respect for the religion. You have the respect of a complete stranger, for what it's worth.
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quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: The Dalai Lama is coming to my campus this semester. In case you were wondering...
Hobbes
He came to my campus just a few months before I got back from my mission. Apparently student turn out was low when he visited.
Dan: That is VERY interesting that you were raised in that faith, I'd love to hear more about that if you are comfortable elaborating. There is alot that is very beautiful about it Tibetan Buddhism. I'll take respect anytime I can get it Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
If we're boasting, the stop at Purdue is just because he'll be spending quite a bit of time in Bloomington . Of course, we have unfair advantages: a Tibetan Buddhist monastery, a Tibetan Buddhist temple, the Dalai Lama's older brother, and one of the largest populations of Tibetan Buddhists in the US.
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They're the world's most fearsome Gelug prieeeeests! They're the satvas of compassion from the eaaast! When the evil Chinese attack, These Tibetan boys don't cut 'em no slack!
Buddha brought them to bring libertyyyy! (He's a phat cat!) Lobsang Gyaco reads Gêdün Gyaco's poetryyyyy! (That's a fact, Jack!) Jamphel Gyaco liked to brood; (Gimme a break!) Dainzin Gyaco is such a party dude! (PARTYYYY!)
Probability 1: (reincarnation exists) * (reincarnation in the Tibetan Bhuddist sense exists) * (guy who claims to be lama actually is a lama and has control over the process) Probability 2: (reincarnation exists) * (a compassionate afterlife will stop reincarnating people in Tibet if the Chinese decide to play whack a mole)
For me, both possibilities are near enough to zero, that I consider both to be roughly equal and it is not immediately obvious which one I would estimate to be more probable.
However, this line of thought is essentially *irrelevant*
The real issue is that while reincarnation is unlikely, the perception of reincarnation is quite real (among the target audience anyways). Additionally, whoever made the law probably does not believe in it either. So what is their goal?
Clearly, for an authoritarian government, the issue is that alternative leaders (secular or religious) represent a loss of control. For example, this is why China insists on appointing its own Catholic bishops. They cannot tolerate people who are loyal to a power aside from their own. For reincarnation, the perception that a lama is reincarnated probably gives them some perceived authority, holiness if you will. If you restrict who can say that they're reincarnated, then you negate that perception and your job is done. Obviously, the "lama" may believe it themselves and hide that belief to survive, but as far as the government is concerned that hidden belief is no longer a problem. Especially if they use intelligence services to ensure that not only is that belief hidden from the world at large, but from other Tibetan Bhuddists. Additionally, if there are perfectly visible "reincarnated" lamas under Chinese control, then the issue becomes even more foggy.
I'm not saying that that I agree with the policy. I think any religion that claims Richard Gere as a highly visible figure and Stephen Seagal as a reincarnated lama does a pretty good job of discrediting itself. (I might also add that there are other variants of Bhuddism in India and China that seem less silly but thats a different discussion) Personally, if I was in control of the situation, I would just continue to flood the area with Han Chinese and let time do its thing.
My only point is that the policy is not nearly as silly as it sounds on the first pass when you consider the pragmatic reasons for the policy rather than thinking about it on a theoretical "is that possible" basis.
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posted
The debate seems to be a bit odd, since the Chinese gov't hasn't said they think they can control reincarnation, they've said reincarnating without permission is a punishable offense.
Similarly to how the US gov't cannot prevent people from speeding, but has made doing so a punishable offense. Discovering reincarnated people is a bit harder, but then again, the Chinese gov't probably doesn't care about reincarnations that don't announce themselves and wield geopolitical power. This is aimed squarely at the Dalai Lama, as the leader of the Tibetan gov't in exile.
Richard Gere is a highly visible Tibetan Buddhist. Are you disputing that he's highly visible, or that he's a Tibetan Buddhist? As for Stephen Seagal, keep in mind that reincarnated lamas, while not everywhere on the ground, are relatively common in Tibetan Buddhism. Also, the main thing involved in being a reincarnated lama is having additional responsibilities. Whether or not he really is one, I have no idea (especially as I have no particular religious beliefs ), but it isn't particularly far-fetched, given the overall belief structure of the religion.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:I'm not saying that that I agree with the policy. I think any religion that claims Richard Gere as a highly visible figure and Stephen Seagal as a reincarnated lama does a pretty good job of discrediting itself. (I might also add that there are other variants of Bhuddism in India and China that seem less silly but thats a different discussion) Personally, if I was in control of the situation, I would just continue to flood the area with Han Chinese and let time do its thing.
If I was a totalitarian regime bent on controlling my populace as well as my neighbors I'd probably do the same thing as well.
quote: My only point is that the policy is not nearly as silly as it sounds on the first pass when you consider the pragmatic reasons for the policy rather than thinking about it on a theoretical "is that possible" basis.
On a pragmatic level sure I can totally see why the Chinese government is doing this. I just think however that it will be completely bogus in terms of religious arguement. It's insulting to Chinese inteligence that the government would deign to pretend it can regulate reincarnation.
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posted
fugu13: I think you're misreading me and I'm not sure we actually disagree on anything, in that last post anyways. Your second paragraph is just reiterating my main point.
BlackBlade: Exactly, we are agreed on the first two sentences. As for the third, I'd have to disagree. As far as the average Chinese person, they'd probably think something like "Hey, our government is condescending to those Tibetans and messing with their religion" or even more likely, they probably not care/hear about it since it is not a policy aimed at them. I really do not think that anyone would seriously believe that the Chinese government suddenly both believes in Buddhist reincarnation and that it can control it. This is clearly a secular motivated decision rather than a religious one.
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posted
I was agreeing with you in part and disagreeing with you in part. I started the first part before having read your post.
I definitely disagree with you about Richard Gere's being a Tibetan Buddhist reflecting anything about Tibetan Buddhists. I see where you're coming from on Seagal, but think your opinion might be based on a flawed understanding of the underlying beliefs.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: The Dalai Lama is coming to my campus this semester. In case you were wondering...
Hobbes
He visited Maui earlier this year. A special building was erected for him, but so many people wanted to see him that the sponsoring group arranged 3 public meetings in the stadium in the middle of town.
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No, seriously. I've never heard him speak or really learned anything about him other than the fact that he was in charge of Tibet and then China kicked him out (for lack of a better term).
What's all the hubbub?
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posted
I was a bit shocked when the Dalai Lama visited my school and the student section was pretty empty. The public meeting was sold out in almost no time. Students were allowed to go for free.
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quote:It's insulting to Chinese inteligence that the government would deign to pretend it can regulate reincarnation.
Doesn't the Chinese government have a long history of issuing really stupid directives and requiring the populace to accept or at least pretend to accept them, lest they be jailed or killed?
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posted
"But certainly you can see that if there is truth to who the Dalai Lama is, it's more likely that HE would have control over that sort of thing then the Chinese government."
But then if the DalaiLama believed in reincarnation, he'd be living in Tibet. It ain't as if ya can threaten or harm someone who can reincarnate at will.
Unless you believe the Chinese can harm the DalaiLama. In which case, you also must believe that the government can control reincarnation.
Can't have it both ways.
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That you can be reincarnated at will does not mean you are safe from harm, it means you cannot permanently die, which is a completely different question, especially if for you harm involves the harm of others and of your cause. It isn't like the Dalai Lama can also magically start speaking and acting like an adult immediately after birth, even.
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quote:It's insulting to Chinese inteligence that the government would deign to pretend it can regulate reincarnation.
Doesn't the Chinese government have a long history of issuing really stupid directives and requiring the populace to accept or at least pretend to accept them, lest they be jailed or killed?
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:It's insulting to Chinese inteligence that the government would deign to pretend it can regulate reincarnation.
Doesn't the Chinese government have a long history of issuing really stupid directives and requiring the populace to accept or at least pretend to accept them, lest they be jailed or killed?
Yes, but the barriers between east and west are crumbling, and the people are gaining more power. That excuse is wearing VERY thin IMO. The people in Hong Kong see through this sort of nonsense, and they wouldn't accept it. The rest of the country needs to follow suit.
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posted
Of course the directive is particularly irrelevant in Hong Kong. Or any other major Chinese city for that matter.
Clearly, this is a policy aimed at Tibetans and to a lesser extent Tibetan Buddhists in the rest of the country, which are actually a pretty small fraction of the population. I would also add that AFAIK, Tibetan Buddhism isn't even the dominant form of Buddhism in China.
Its as if the Canadian federal government suddenly decided to declare that it would start funding national tarot card programs for people that wanted it. Its not as if people would start to think that the government suddenly started believing in tarot (I would hope). People would think something like, "haha those poor sods that believe in this crap, well I guess the government is trying to accommodate them."
Except in this case, obviously we looking at a *negative repressive* kind of accommodation. A "Really? You believe this stuff? What if we start to mess with it?" kind.
fugu13: Obviously one believer (or not) does not really sink the religion. I do however, get a creepy Scientology-like vibe in the way that the two actors are (or perhaps, were in the 80s and 90s) at the forefront of their publicity. This really was not my main point, more of a digression.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: "But certainly you can see that if there is truth to who the Dalai Lama is, it's more likely that HE would have control over that sort of thing then the Chinese government."
But then if the DalaiLama believed in reincarnation, he'd be living in Tibet. It ain't as if ya can threaten or harm someone who can reincarnate at will.
Unless you believe the Chinese can harm the DalaiLama. In which case, you also must believe that the government can control reincarnation.
Can't have it both ways.
The Buddhist (or Tibetan Buddhist, if it differs) concept of reincarnation is a very complicated concept, and you're drastically oversimplifying it . It's not as if the reincarnations are simply the same person in a new body. Each person has their own mind, their own personality, their own likes and loves and dislikes. Their own life. They are karmically twined with those that came before them, and, especially in the case of highly realized persons such as the Dalai Lama, they often remember fragments of previous lives.
So, of course it is possible to harm Tenzin Gyatso. It's also possible to kill Tenzin Gyatso. And he will be dead. He will be reincarnated at some point, and a new Dalai Lama will be born who will be karmically linked to Tenzin Gyatso, and remember some of being Tenzin Gyatso. But he won't be Tenzin Gyatso.
Furthermore... directly following the invasion of Tibet, there was a lot of work to be done, most of which would not easily be done by a young, confused and inexperienced Dalai Lama. I don't see how it was remotely unreasonable for the existing Dalai Lama to therefore make an effort to survive the invasion in order to help work for the welfare of his people and of Tibetan Buddhism in general.
Disclaimer: As a staunch atheist, I no longer believe any of the above details about reincarnation are literally true. But I felt that this view needed to be represented.Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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