posted
After seeing a remark to that effect for the zillionth (possibly not a real number) time over at the Amazon.com customer reviews...I thought I'd ask:
When reading a work of fiction, how many people here put 'coherent theme' first and foremost as a standard for enjoyment?
I like themes, but I rarely judge a story as good or bad based on a theme. Or lack thereof.
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posted
By "theme" do they mean "plot"? I see this in film comments all the time, too. And I think it is a less relevant standard in film than it is in books.
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posted
The pacing in this thread could use some work, there is no identifiable climax or resolution. Also the dialogue is too plain, it could use some pep, or at the least some wit.
The protagonist is hard to empathize with.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: The pacing in this thread could use some work, there is no identifiable climax or resolution. Also the dialogue is too plain, it could use some pep, or at the least some wit.
The protagonist is hard to empathize with.
In addition, the occasional run on sentence mars the thread's grammar.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
It seems to me like looking for "coherent themes" in literature isn't really very high-level appreciation of the works. I think most good books can't be boiled down to a "theme"/lesson/message although they may contain them.
I couldn't say there is a coherent "theme" to my life, so I won't judge books badly if they don't have one.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: By "theme" do they mean "plot"? I see this in film comments all the time, too. And I think it is a less relevant standard in film than it is in books.
In middle school/early high school teachers were always trying to get us to write about the "theme" of the book we read. I think they meant something like the "main message" of the book, but whenever we found one, it seemed to be a one-sentence summation of the book, and I don't think a good book can be encapsulated like that.
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posted
If it really shows up a lot in Amazonian reviews, as you say, it's probably because people, remembering their high school English class, know it means something.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:To produce a mighty book, you must choose a mighty theme" writes Melville in Moby-Dick. In a letter to Nathaniel Hawthorne, he confirms that the mighty theme "that impelled" his "book" was "the pervading thought."
quote:In middle school/early high school teachers were always trying to get us to write about the "theme" of the book we read. I think they meant something like the "main message" of the book, but whenever we found one, it seemed to be a one-sentence summation of the book, and I don't think a good book can be encapsulated like that.
I agree. In fact, many writers have made their themes quite incoherent, intentionally, in order to promote discussion. "Moby Dick" is certainly an example of this, but maybe the best example is "Slaughterhouse 5."
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: The pacing in this thread could use some work, there is no identifiable climax or resolution. Also the dialogue is too plain, it could use some pep, or at the least some wit.
The protagonist is hard to empathize with.
In addition, the occasional run on sentence mars the thread's grammar.
Not to mention the wanton self interest. It's almost as if the thread is speaking to itself, and ignoring the presence of viewers.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think a movie should tell a story, and if the theme or plot is muddy it makes the movie less enjoyable at times. That is not to say that it HAS to be crystal clear....I like ambiguity at times....but if I can't make heads or tails of it, then I probably didn't enjoy it muck.
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posted
Personally, I think that another of the problems with this thread it the gratuitious sex. I mean, look at what's going on in the above post! I does nothing to advance the thread at all. It's just there to satisfy the prurient desires of the author, I'd say.
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posted
My husband and any Jatraqueros who have ever been around me after about 12:30 at night can probably tell you ALL about how my mind works. *leers*
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Well, since they're nudists I'm just glad they're not playing flag football. That could get messy.
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Nope I'm afraid you holding up a sheet of paper with the lyrics does not create music, and therefore we are still bereft of diagetic music in the thread.
I'd be amazed if we somehow got extra-diagetic sound. In fact I am not sure that is even possible.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I wasn't trying to... whatever.
I was just informing you of the lyrics.
I liked the lyrics.
But I WAS hoping somebody would be clever enough to produce diagetic sound in the thread. It's the film nut in me I supppose.
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posted
Self-referential threads are never to be believed. They just don't tell the truth! Every post in them is untrue.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I'd just like to point out that, though this probably wasn't what you referring to, I think the complaint can be valid for certain kinds of non-fiction books. If I read a self-help book that has no coherent theme, I'm demanding my money back. For example.
I went to a physics lecture the other day (a community event, I'm not talking about a class here). The speaker was semi-engaging (which is pretty good for a physics lecture I suppose) and he has some interesting facts in what was obviously an interesting research project; but he seemed to just bounce from random topic to random topic. I left feeling gypped (well not really, since it was free); like he hadn't made any point, hadn't altered my view in anyway, he'd just given me a few random factoids from all over the board. I think it's important for some things to have coherent themes.
Of course you're obviously talking about fiction, in which case that's hardly a requirement of good prose.
posted
The worst thing one of my high school teachers ever did to my writing was suggest that fiction is supposed to (or perhaps, does, whether such is the author's intention or not) have an overriding moral or theme.
A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. If the characters, plot, and/or descriptions carry us through in our reading, that should be enough. It doesn't need to be the umpteenth iteration of Man's Inhumanity to Man or Local Boy Makes Good or what have you.
My snark cortex says that some Amazon readers don't want to exercise themselves on works that don't have "THEME" in big neon letters spelled out for them.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Hmm. While specifically placing a theme, and doing it on purpose, tends to lead to really annoying stuff...
man's inhumanity to man, so to speak, is one of the most interesting subjects, and there's just so much material in that genre! Humans harming other humans, and thus causing suffering which has repercussions years or decades later is an interesting plot point, to me at least.
I mean, you could make some truly good stories with those kinds of actions as a base.
Then again... I'm thinking of it as a plot point, part of the story itself, that is, part of the causal chain from earlier to later actions, and they're quite interesting.
A story without people being jerks to each other even a bit tends not to be interesting... because conflict with other people tends to be the best kind of conflict, at least in my view.
Er, yeah. Am I even thinking of the same thing you're thinking of...?
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
My girlfriend's 11 year old read a book last year for a book report, something about a good witch in a contest held by a wizard to cast the evilest spell to win his hand in marriage. Part of the report had to include the theme of the book, and if the teacher explained what a theme was, she didn't do it very well.
So how do you explain theme to an 11 year old non-reader? Lesson learned, moral of the story, etc... Except there didn't seem to be anything like that in the damn book. The good witch (I assume she was good, since she wore a white dress on the cover) didn't regret casting the winning spell, a resurrection of an evil wizard. She didn't decide the whole competing to marry this guy thing was silly in the end, and as far as I remember nobody faced any consequences for their evil actions. Finally, after emailing the teacher with our quandry, she sat down with the 11 year old and decided on the theme involving a side plot orphan character who helped the good witch, which kinda admitted that there was no theme, really.
I don't know who I'm griping at,really. The author for writing a morally empty book for kids old enough to need to know things like morals, the teacher for insisting on teaching themes but not explaining it or assigning books that actually have identifiable themes, or the kid for not reading enough? Eh, there's enough gripe to go around for everyone. At least she likes Buffy and Veronica Mars.
Posts: 10 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Actually, with that one it looks like the emoticon on the left his highly amused by the soles of the feet on the emoticon on the right.
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