posted
That reminds me of when I went to Atlanta, where people would commonly go out of their way to offer directions...and then pester you for bus money until you either pay them to leave you alone or outrun them.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I agree with enforcing English in schools--learning the language should be a priority for young immigrant children who don't speak it yet. Accomodating these students with a bilingual education undeniably hampers their ability to absorb and learn English as a primary tongue.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: Accomodating these students with a bilingual education undeniably hampers their ability to absorb and learn English as a primary tongue.
"Undeniably?" I deny it!
All the studies I've seen (and a couple years back, when this was a huge issue in my state, I saw a LOT) indicate that bilingual education not only helps students learn English faster, it keeps them from falling behind in subjects like math, science, and social studies. The majority of students with severely limited ESL skills who are "immersed" in an English-only classroom drown.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I sincerely doubt that a native English speaker would think those professors spoke with a perfect accent.
Rabbit, were the professors you worked with linguists? Specifically, linguists who teach phonetics? That might explain it -- you need to have a very good ear for sounds if you specialise in teaching it. The people I'm referring to are exceptions to the norm, I'm not challenging that. But they spoke with a perfect English accent(yes, it was confirmed by native speakers).
ETA: it involves hard work in the labs, for a number of years, listening to the sounds and trying to discern them, and repeat them, and on top of that you need to have a talent for it.
[ September 06, 2007, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Kama ]
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
As anecdotal evidence, I can say that bilingual education definitely hampered my ability to learn English. Of course, it did not help that Cantonese was my first language and the two official languages being taught were English and French.
I guess my point here is that I suspect that bilingual education only helps learning English if the second language is actually the one spoken at home.
For the rest of us, it can really be a big waste of time that would better be spent somewhere else, like more English education, math, science, etc.
quote: The majority of students with severely limited ESL skills who are "immersed" in an English-only classroom drown.
This does not match my experience either, given that ESL as implemented in Ontario is essentially immersion in English with supplementary extra ESL classes (taught only in English) to teach grammar, vocabulary, etc. (And then required classes on top to teach the second official language, French)
posted
Note my qualifier: "with severely limited ESL skills." Is that really true of the population you are describing?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm completely sure that we fit the group described in the_Somalian's post to which you are responding, "young immigrant children."
I interpreted your "with severely limited ESL skills" as being essentially the same, but with the caveat of limited or no English exposure at home. We definitely fit that group as well, given that my area was dominated by Asian immigrants whose parents often could not speak English very well at all.
So I think we fit the group you're describing, although you may need to define that group a bit more clearly before I am sure.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I support making English the only language in which the U.S. government is required to conduct business. In areas where there's a large population that speaks another language, government offices could conduct business in that language as well if they thought it would make things simpler. But it seems it would be a huge unnecessary expense to require every sign and document throughout the U.S. to be in both English and, say, Spanish just because some areas of the country have a large Spanish-speaking population.
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't think the government is required to conduct business in Spanish right now, though some local governments might require themselves to (which is the same as doing it to make things simpler, since they can always reverse their decision), so it seems we're good on that count.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Even states that have passed English Only laws, like Utah, have allowances for anything health and safety related, which for some reason includes any publications that generate revenue for the state. It's a pointless gesture, in my book. Throw in the associations of many languages with a religious tradition, and it starts to make me queasy. And who determines what is English? The Scrabble people? We'll wind up with a language academy like the French.
I mean, what's with having an official language that is named for another nationality? It places people of English descent on a different level from those who are not.
P.S. If we were to establish American as a language, part of its character would have to derive from the Webster's dictionary, where the form of language is determined democratically. Maybe. Mostly, I don't think we want a Federal Agency telling us how to talk, not because I'm an iconoclast, but because Federal Agencies are not famous for their clarity and style.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I thought that if you learn one language well, picking up the second isn't a problem, within reason, and that the major problem occurs when the child doesn't learn any language well because the parents don't speak the primary language very well, either. For example, I have a friend who was raised by Ukrainian academics, moved here in later elementary school, switched over perfectly, and it was because he spoke his parents language with such precision. I know that anecdotes aren't worth much, but when you have a few friends who study theory, and another who blithely tells his story and it fits into the theory, I figure it may be relevant.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Irami, I have heard the same thing. However, I think it depends partially on how closely related the languages are as to whether your hypothesis will work. Languages that have similar sounds may be somewhat easier, while languages that are less related (for example where tonal or gutteral inflections are much more important) are more difficult, both to hear and to speak.
posted
It also depends on the individual. I have friends who can pick up other languages easily and do so for fun (!), and others who (like me) find it very difficult.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
There seems to be a tone of, “You are being a mean and nasty bully if you want to require anyone to learn English.” That is not just the tone of some on this thread, but the tone of those who opposed the “Official English” propositions that have been proposed in Arizona over the last several years. (I’m more familiar with the AZ issue than the broader subject of this thread.)
But consider this: English is the defacto language of international air traffic control and maritime shipping. It is the defacto language of international commerce. At least two major countries I can think of strongly encourage, if not outright require, their people to learn English. (China and India) There may be many other countries that do this. I’m not sure.
Yet here in the good old US of A, we allow generations of people to get by without learning English. I don’t think we are doing them any favors. Oh sure, they can get by working at minimum wage at places like MacDonald’s and El Polo Loco in places like Phoenix, Tucson, and El Paso for the rest of their lives. But forget about getting a job that involves anything to do with any company that deals internationally - at least any job in that company except the lowest level at minimum wage or less. Janitors usually don‘t need to learn English. (And think about this the next time you call some company for customer support and end up talking to someone who has a marked Indian accent.)
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for doing whatever it takes to get immigrants and their children the help they need - translators, bilingual ballots, bilingual signs, bilingual education, etc. to help them get the help they need and help to smooth their way. But, at the same time, I’m also all for getting them whatever encouragement and help they need to learn English as fast as they can. If they are going to live in the USA they are going to be way better off if they learn English. It may not seem fair, but it is reality.
I also think that schools throughout the USA ought to have languages other than English required subjects. (British-American folks like me would do well to learn other languages.)
As to whether or not English ought to be the official language of the USA, I don’t know. One thing I do wonder about, however, is this: Is having a common language in a country divisive or uniting? I know of countries which have multiple languages. Does this tend to unite the people or divide them into conflicting factions?
My own gut feeling is that when people can’t understand each other it tends to be divisive. I’m also not convinced that having a common language will automatically make them get along with each other. But I have the feeling that it does help toward that ideal.
But then I’m no expert on the subject so I just don’t know for sure. But I do wonder about it.
So anyway Hobbes, that's my opinion and rant on the subject. For what it is worth. Posts: 631 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Samuel, I think requiring others to learn English is a good idea (if you give the resources they need to do so) but that's not the issue here.
Instead, making English the "official" language will just punish people who don't know English, and take away the help they already get to help them learn.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Samuel, I think requiring others to learn English is a good idea (if you give the resources they need to do so) but that's not the issue here.
Instead, making English the "official" language will just punish people who don't know English, and take away the help they already get to help them learn.
It's obviously common sense for immigrants to learn English if they want to suceed and assimilate, but how do we "require" anyone to learn English at present? I also still don't see how making English the national language punishes anyone, or why it requires reducing the resources available to help people learn.
And once again... what help do we provide to Chinese, Indian, African immigrants? Doesn't favoring one immigrant language over others send the message that some immigrants are less valued?
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