posted
The thing is, stretching a little to understand is not that hard, and what is the result? Someone is welcomed into our midst who likely has new and interesting ideas we've never heard before. Hatrack has a lot of long time posters, which is great. We have continuity and a strong community because of that, but sometimes we need fresh input. It's our lifeblood, in truth. Without new people we would certainly gradually lose interest in the discussions since we all already know what each other will think on every topic under the sun.
So not only do we gain a potentially excellent contributor and member of our community, but we influence them in the long run to write better. You don't learn by wishing, you learn by doing. Each new person we send packing because their standards of spelling and grammar aren't up to ours is a person who will not have the benefit of hanging in our forum where they will without fail learn over time how to write more persuasively and effectively.
Certainly my writing (such as it is) is much better because I practice by writing dozens of little essays (i.e. posts) every week as a part of our discussions. If we scorn and offend these new people, most of them quite young, what will be the end result on them and on us? How many newbies with bad spelling have later gone on to become cherished members of our community?
Spelling is something that is processed differently in different brains. Ability to spell well is not in any way a marker of intelligence, nor is it correlated to level of effort. My brilliant little brother, to give one example, has spent untold effort on spelling over his lifetime and still spells terribly whereas I have easily with no effort at all spelt better than him our whole lives. If there's any correlation with level of effort it's backwards. Those who are given the gift of brains that can spell don't have to expend any effort while those who aren't do.
I understand that people are afraid of hordes of barbarians at the gates, afraid that the entire spirit of the forum would change for the worse in some way. However, if there's anything I've learned in my 11 years at hatrack, it's that it changes. Nothing can remain the same forever. We either accept change and welcome it, or we die. The biggest change I would love to see happen at hatrack doesn't have to do with intellectual standards nor with writing quality nor yet with grammar and spelling. The change I yearn for most is a change of spirit to one that is warmer and more welcoming, generous, magnanimous, and reflects our deep and abiding love for all people, particularly the young.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I, personally, don't have a deep and abiding love for all people, especially the young. In general, I wish the young would grow up. I am perfectly happy for Hatrack to stay a place populated primarily by adults and unusually mature younger people. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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ElJay, with your recent post in aspectre's hurricane thread, and the one above, it makes me believe that it was people like you that gave my brother the frights. Even though I agree that the decent writing part of Hatrack is a big part of being a good contributing member, I second Tatiana on this:
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: The biggest change I would love to see happen at hatrack doesn't have to do with intellectual standards nor with writing quality nor yet with grammar and spelling. The change I yearn for most is a change of spirit to one that is warmer and more welcoming, generous, magnanimous, and reflects our deep and abiding love for all people, particularly the young.
I'm not saying Hatrack should run a preschool class on "How to be a Hatracker", but giving someone the benefit of time, and a true, hearty "Welcome!" can be huge in allowing them to become a part of this community.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Aug 2007
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It's funny how our superficial readings of people can be wrong. For instance, ElJay is one of the classiest people I know, and genuinely generous, as opposed to just liking to proclaim her virtue.
We can't defend what happened to your brother, because we don't know who he is. I, for one, will not grant that he was mistreated or is owed an apology without some evidence on the matter. Frankly it seems a bit manipulative to bring it up without giving us enough details to evaluate what really happened. In my experience, far more people feel mistreated than actually are. Hell, I feel mistreated by Hatrackers from time to time. I feel like nobody likes me and nobody reads my posts. But in my less self-absorbed moments, I can admit that it's mostly in my head--and that it's actually quite a ludicrous claim. This doesn't stop me from genuinely feeling this way from time to time. I think a lot of people convince themselves that they have been mistreated in the same manner.
ADDED: I believe that on some rare occasion Hatrack as a community has been rude to newcomers. Far more often when this is claimed to be the case, however, it is actually the newcomers who were themselves rude and inconsiderate, and cry that they were mistreated when Hatrack fails to acknowledge their superiority in the way that they want. Nearly every example I can think of falls in this category. Specifically, I can't think of a polite person with poor spelling who was shunned. I can think of quite a few churlish people with poor spelling who had their spelling criticized, though. And it's indicative of how much Hatrack really is welcoming and open that each time some jackass cries about being treated harshly, Hatrack goes into spasms of guilty navel-gazing, to determine if there really is some spark of truth to the claim.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by landybraine: Tatiana, what a great post.
ElJay, with your recent post in aspectre's hurricane thread, and the one above, it makes me believe that it was people like you that gave my brother the frights. Even though I agree that the decent writing part of Hatrack is a big part of being a good contributing member, I second Tatiana on this:
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: The biggest change I would love to see happen at hatrack doesn't have to do with intellectual standards nor with writing quality nor yet with grammar and spelling. The change I yearn for most is a change of spirit to one that is warmer and more welcoming, generous, magnanimous, and reflects our deep and abiding love for all people, particularly the young.
I'm not saying Hatrack should run a preschool class on "How to be a Hatracker", but giving someone the benefit of time, and a true, hearty "Welcome!" can be huge in allowing them to become a part of this community.
(edited to add this):
Maybe I was a bit strong against you ElJay, because as I look, you gave me a nice, hearty "Welcome" and have yet to attack me. I think your hurricane post just ruffled my feathers a bit. Posts: 99 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: How many hurricane threads do you really plan on starting?
Obviously, I'm an idiot. Yes, it was not ElJay, but El JT de Spang, and I offer my apologies to ElJay once more.
As to what I thought was wrong with El JT de Spangs' post, I felt like there was no need for this. Aspectre was putting info out there for people who wanted it. If you don't care, then why post negativly was my thought. I'm of the mindset that you don't need to critisize if it doesn't affect you. Aspectre posting about hurricanes was in no way harming anyone.
And as for my brother and his posts, I was more using that example as to why I think it was important to me (and him) to wait until posting. I also said I believe it was a learning experience for him. I will not give examples of his posts because I believe that in his case, he was able to take what happened and get something good out of it. With my brother, it worked out that something not so good had a good ending. (Him brushing up on his writing) It is no longer an issue, and he plans on joining again when he feels more comfortable.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Point taken, Tom. I just thought it was rude, and coupled with my confusion of who said what, I felt it warranted a response. Unnessesary rudeness happens to be my biggest pet peeve. I just don't understand why some people have the need to be rude, instead of just chalking it up to "Why bother?"
Posts: 99 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Specifically, I can't think of a polite person with poor spelling who was shunned.
You know, neither can I.
(e.g, we've had several people come here who speak English as a second language, and some noticably non-fluently, and I can't recall any oafish behavior towards them -- quite the opposite, really)
Did your brother come in with both guns blazing, [landybraine]***, or was it a gentle introduction of himself? [Edited to add: not that his being impolite would have justified any and all sorts of reactions to him, just trying to get a better picture of what happened(although it would be all that much clearer if we knew his screenname)]
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***Edited to correct my conflation of two names -- whoops, my apologies
posted
Much better wording morbo. I had been called a stalker in threads and on hatrack chat just before I posted that.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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landybraine, unnecessary rudeness also happens to be one of my biggest pet peeves. Obviously, however, people can have different interpretations both of what is rude and what is necessary.
I do, however, how a policy of always giving newbies the benefit of the doubt, and offering a welcome and carefully phrased friendly advice if it seems warranted. It is extremely unlikely that your brother found me frightening, if he only posted here a few times. Although of course it's possible.
You said you weren't saying you thought we should run a preschool, but for a long time there were several threads on what you might call beginning Hatrack etiquette that were bumped periodically or people referred to if it seemed likely that they would find them helpful. I'm not sure why the practice dropped off, but I think it might have happened when we started getting new members at a much faster rate. The other problem with them, of course, is when could Hatrack as a whole ever agree on what good thread etiquette is?
Anyway, I think that joining Hatrack is very much like joining any other group. People who come in and introduce themselves and sound interested in getting to know other people generally are welcomed and have a good experience. People who come in and start participating without saying hello are judged much more on the quality of their participation. Established members are much more likely to offer tips and cut slack to new members show some politeness. Many of us do cultivate new members who seem nice and just need some "polish." But it can be incredibly draining to try to help someone meet the community standards who is obviously not interested in doing so, who barges in and starts on the "hard" topics without saying hi, and who seems to think that everyone here should change to meet their perceptions of how a forum should work rather than vice versa.
So when I say I don't have a deep and abiding love for all people, especially the young, I mean it. I think I give everyone a fair shake. I don't think everyone is at a place in their lives where they're ready to participate in this forum, and I see no need to pretend like they would be if people were just nicer to them. There are many, many places on the internet. No one place is right for everyone. This place was obviously not right for your brother at the time. I hope he's found someplace else that works out better for him right now. Hatrack also wasn't right for one of my very best friends, who was an adult when he found it and participated for awhile but just was never fully comfortable here. I was sad to see him go, but I didn't think his criticisms were entirely valid.
----
Thanks for the kind words, Joe.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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breyerchic, I'm sorry, but I am not going to give out my brothers sn for a few reasons. One, he got wind of this thread and is a bit miffed that I was talking about him at all. He said he does not want to be the poster boy for what he didn't even consider to be something that offensive. Two, he plans on coming back and would like to start fresh when he feels more comfortable in his own abilities. I'm sure everyone can understand wanting to let go of what you were that you didn't like, and focus on what you are now.
So, I am sorry if it seemed like I was calling Hatrack a rude bunch of people who pick on little kids. That was not my intent at all. I will try to explain here the point I was trying to make with bringing him up at all.
quote:Originally posted by landybraine: I would say I feel like a newbie. I think the only thing I've learned from being a long-time lurker is the flow of the conversation. I've also brushed up on my writing, which is essential to being accepted on Hatrack. And rightly so. I think that's what makes this forum so great is the level of writing, and the thought that is put into it.
However, my little brother tried twice to post on Hatrack, and was not recieved well. Mainly, he was considered rude for not spelling properly, or taking time to make sure his grammar was ok. I told him to do what I did. Take your time, get the lay of the land. Learn the unspoken "rules", and then when your more confident, try again. I'm glad I waited. I'm still the same person, with the same ideas, just more confident about posting them.
The "However" in the above post should have read "incidentally" or even "On a suprising note". I was trying to convey that even though the Grammar/Spelling "police" can be scary, my brother and I both benifited from the experience of being corrected. He, having gone on to practice his writing--and me, having felt like I am comfortable enough with mine to join this community.
I tried to explain below that feeling bad about my brother's experience wasn't nessecary, as it was actually a good experience.
quote:Originally posted by landybraine: I actually think it was a learning experience for my brother. He is a very smart young man (he's 16), with a mature thought process, but he has to learn that to have his ideas come across as intelligent, he's got to present them in an intelligent way. He understood what I meant, and tried to start his own forum with his friends as a way to practice that. Alas, his friends thought it was better to take over his forum with fart jokes.
For a while there, he was wanting to write a book. Hatrack was a wake up call for him that he needs to work on his writing. So now he's taking writing as an extracurricular class at school. He's getting better and has not given up, which I think is awesome.
You guys have been great to me, and one day, I imagine it will be a family affair.
I seconded Tatiana's post below, not because I think that Hatrack is something other than this--but because this was the epitome of what I think Hatrack is, and should strive to be. I have admitted that I've been scared to post, but not necessarily because anyone has been a jerk, but because I didn't want to give the wrong impression of myself. (i.e.--a non-spelling, illiterate fool, which was my fear)
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: The change I yearn for most is a change of spirit to one that is warmer and more welcoming, generous, magnanimous, and reflects our deep and abiding love for all people, particularly the young.
Like I said, this took a turn I wasn't going for. Do I have examples of people being jerks because of spelling and grammar? No. I have seen people get corrected and have seen their apparant embarrassment over it, or felt embarrassed for them. That was enough to make me self-concious to the point that I lurked until I felt well and ready to post.
quote:Originally posted by landybraine
ElJay, with your recent post in aspectre's hurricane thread, and the one above, it makes me believe that it was people like you that gave my brother the frights.
ElJay, once again, I apologize for being short with you. This comment was stupid and shouldn't have been said. I took an immature stab at what I percieved to an insensitive post. And the worst part is I didn't even mean it. In the same way that I do not like rudeness in others, I abhorr it in myself and I feel like my comment was out of line and based on not only a misunderstanding, but also a bit of crabbiness that is uncharacteristic of me.
So, I hope this clears the air, and we can let go of whether Hatrack is a nice place or not. I for one think it is, albeit, a little scary at first.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Aug 2007
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For every well-intentioned newbie we scare off that we hear about, how many more do you think there are that we never hear about? This is the second time I can remember someone telling us of worthy newbies whom we sent packing. My 10 year old niece who is now 18 was a third. She would have made a wonderful hatracker, she's funny and smart, but was discouraged when her very first post, a post which told of her personal feelings about her own situation (how can anyone take issue with that?) was scorned and derided.
I say again, and not addressed to anyone in particular but to the whole board, that we could have a better, less contentious, more interesting, and happier forum if we withheld some of our scorn and treated all people with respect and kindness. Particularly the young and the new, who are not likely to hang around and take it.
If the same thing has happened three times that we know about, it's happened many more times that we didn't notice, it's happening frequently. In my work I'm taught that when the same accident or near-miss happens more than once, then it is a sign that there's something wrong that needs to be fixed.
We think the board belongs to us, those of us who have spent a lot of time and thought here, but in fact it belongs to Uncle Orson, and any of his young fans who come here deserve to be encouraged and welcomed, for this board belongs to them every bit as much as it does to us.
If you disagree with me that the board is not unwelcoming, that we are always respectful of new people, then what is your alternate interpretation of the three incidents I cite?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Tatiana, maybe I'm reading you wrong, but she was 10 when she posted?
If so - well, I'm glad she got discouraged! 10 is way too young for this site. If my 11 year old (precocious as can be, reading Raymond Feist and David Eddings) little sister wanted to access Hatrack I wouldn't let her.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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And that because, is in a large part, kids that young shouldn't be posting on BB - no matter what they read, or are capable of understanding.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I agree with Imogen and was quite suprised that it wasn't in hatrack's TOS that you had to be thirteen.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Of course not, at least not all of them. But it's in the TOS for most forums and web things (AIM, Livejournal).
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tatiana, when I was a newbie there was only one Hatracker that posted something that made me feel unwelcome. I still remember it very plainly -- it wasn't even addressed directly to me, it was in a discussion of how fast the forums were growing and how hard it was getting to keep up. The person posted that her way of handling it was only to read posts of people whose names she recognized, either from long aquaintance or from Hatrack Chat. Since I don't chat, and was new to the site, my first thought was that if most of the oldtimers used that approach I might as well give up right away, since no amount of well written insightful posts would get people's attention if they didn't even read them.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Oh, so is that why we're so often rude to young people? Because that keeps them off the board since they're too young to be here anyway? Even though Ender was 11 and lots of precocious kids who have are drawn to the site because of Ender? I didn't realize it was a good thing after all. I just know that some of our best people have started at a very young age, and these three cases we know of tell me that we're losing more of these than we really want to lose.
dkw, I'm sorry if you felt put off by my statement when you were a newbie. I don't exclude myself from my wish that we be more welcoming.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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You're mistakenly assuming that we grant that we're often rude to young people. I don't grant that at all. Show me some evidence; show me the rude posts. Until then, it's anecdotal claims made by people with axes to grind. Nobody was rude to me when I was a newbie; I can't recall ever seeing any other newbie treated rudely. I have heard it repeatedly asserted that it happens, though. If it happens so much, why haven't I ever seen it? Is it all happening on the other side of the forum? If so, then go berate people over there; many of the regulars there don't post on this side.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I am sad that the Young Writer's Forum was closed. I think that was an excellent place for teenagers to post.
However, I would rather throw myself off a bridge than be the moderator for that forum, so I completely understand why it was closed. I think there was a lot more happiness in general, though, when the groups weren't mixing.
I like kids, but I like discussing things with well-spoken adults.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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