posted
My interaction with TomD on another thread prompted me to start my own on a topic that has puzzled for quite a while. Why do people like comic books?
Wait. That sounds a little too confrontational. I don't mean to imply that they are without any merit and that anyone who likes them should feel defensive. I just don't get them. It may just be a genre thing—we all have different tastes. And while mine are pretty catholic—epic poetry, lyric poetry, some contemporary "literary" fiction, well-written fantasy, a little bit of SF, travel lit., historical fiction, drama, etc.—I admit there are some things I just can't get into: comic books, for example. Cartoons. Japanese cartoons. Most pre-1900 novels. Eighty-five percent of anything "post-modern." The Da Vinci Code. Family sitcoms.
So I don't mean this thread to be so much of a challenge as an invitation for those who really like the genre to explain it to me. Is there a difference between comic books and "graphic novels," or is the latter a phrase meant to give them a more "grown-up" feel? Do Japanese people really have inordinately large mouths? I can see how comics lend themselves to action and adventure, but is it possible to actually develop characters or meaningful themes within the constraints of the genre? Or is that even a goal of the genre? I think I've been turned off to comics because in my (very limited) experience of them, they tend to be 1) shallow, and 2) cheesy (or 3) drenched in bloody pornography). Is that a fair assessment? Or am I missing some subtle serendipitous confluence of the visual and the verbal?
posted
Asking why people like comics is like asking why they like television or movies or books. It's a medium for telling stories, but that tells you nothing about the relative quality of any given work. There are comics that stand up to the best literature around, and there are comics -- perhaps most comics -- that are simply mind candy with no intentions or pretentions to be great art. But the same can be said for any other medium.
This might be a good place to point out that an issue of Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" won a World Fantasy Award for short fiction. His writing combined with the evocative artwork by Charles Vess created a story that would not have worked as well had it been only words or only artwork.
At their finest, comics can provide layers of meaning that a movie cannot duplicate, but also add the visual aspect that books cannot match.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
IMO, comics are slightly more shallow, cheesy, and drenched in bloody pornography than books, and slightly less than movies. They've suffered in American markets from the perception that they're for children and adolescents, and consequently many of the themes are perpetually adolescent -- but that's not a problem inherent to the medium itself; rather, adolescent comics generally get wider distribution and sales, and are thus more easily obtained.
Reading comics is, to some extent, a bit of an acquired skill -- especially where Japanese comics are concerned. There's a certain language and economy of expression that's conveyed through the iconography -- like, say, how Japanese artists often portray happiness as half-circle eyes and flat-lined mouths, perhaps even with melodramatic "sheets" of tears pouring down -- that's often quite specific to the genre and culture of the comic in question. More importantly, though, is the understanding of what Scott McCloud calls "sequential art" -- the idea that comic books give us a rather unique way to present scenes full of text and visual information that can change to indicate motion or "camera angles" while simultaneously persisting on the page. The best comics take advantage of this, consciously or unconsciously.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's worth pointing out that after Gaiman and Vess won the award the rules were changed so it couldn't happen again, a particularly cheesy reaction along the lines of the New York Times creating a Children's Books Bestseller List after "real" authors complained that the Harry Potter books were hogging the regular Bestseller List.
This sort of thinking is where "graphic novel" comes from. For far too many people, "comic book" means "four-color kiddie book." But give it a prestigious-sounding name and suddenly newspapers and magazines start writing "Comics aren't for kids any more!" articles every six months or so.
Had you never read a book and you walked into a bookstore and started flipping through bestsellers, you would think that books are largely shallow, cheesy, and dripping with bloody pornography. And you'd be right, to a large extent. But painting a medium with that large a brush would skip over some soul-stirring works.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe I'm just different, but I don't think the comic-style of drawing really lends itself to action scenes. I've tried reading the corresponding manga for a few anime series that I like and I get incredibly lost trying to decipher fight scenes in comics as compared to animation.
I really don't read "comics" except for the kind that come in my newspaper every morning but my experience with graphic novels is that they can be as sophisticated as a quality literary novel. Of course there are plenty of comics, graphic novels, and manga that are cheesy, plotless or pointlessly pornographic, but I get those same thoughts whenever I wander the Fantasy aisles at the local Barnes and Noble.
The only real problem I have with comics and graphic novels is that I can't afford to purchase each issue or even the larger bound volumes.
To give you a feel of what's out there maybe check out Neil Gaiman's "Sandman." I can't afford it but I've heard amazing things about it.
One of my favorite mangas is "Death Note." There's practically no action but rather its a complex logic puzzle between a righteous supernatural killer and the genius trying to capture him.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Maybe I'm just different, but I don't think the comic-style of drawing really lends itself to action scenes.
There are many different styles of illustrating for sequential art. There are some artists that I feel are fantastic at conveying action. I remember this two page spread in Desolation Jones by John H. Williams III that was amazing.
Doug TenNapel is great at doing action. The panels just drip in to eachother and you can't help but be propelled.
One of my former coworkers once said "I think everybody likes comic books; everybody just doesn't know it yet." I tend to agree.
Once you get used to translating the images (just as you have to do with any language), then there is almost always a comic that will appeal to you.
Comic books aren't just superheroes, blood, guts, and gravity defying breasts. Some are, and I like a few of those, too.
I think comic books are capable of just as much depth and subtlety as any other medium, and in fact are MORE capable with some subject matter. I heart them, and not just because I'm writing one. Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Reading comics is, to some extent, a bit of an acquired skill -- especially where Japanese comics are concerned. There's a certain language and economy of expression that's conveyed through the iconography -- like, say, how Japanese artists often portray happiness as half-circle eyes and flat-lined mouths, perhaps even with melodramatic "sheets" of tears pouring down -- that's often quite specific to the genre and culture of the comic in question.
And, going along with the specific nature of a comic's genre and culture, is one's own idiosyncratic reaction to it. I love many, many comics... but I'm indifferent to 99.9% of manga. I think of it as being similar to how I like music in general, but don't like New Age music or jazz or hiphop.
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Reading comics is, to some extent, a bit of an acquired skill
This makes sense; I can see how someone coming completely cold into Dante, or Eliot, or Eco might be a little confused. The difference is that I know those authors are writing in a medium (and with an ability) the depth of which will justify acquiring the skill. I'm not yet convinced about that with comics.
quote:More importantly, though, is the understanding of what Scott McCloud calls "sequential art" -- the idea that comic books give us a rather unique way to present scenes full of text and visual information that can change to indicate motion or "camera angles" while simultaneously persisting on the page. The best comics take advantage of this, consciously or unconsciously.
I like this. I'll have to think about it.
quote:But painting a medium with that large a brush would skip over some soul-stirring works.
Fair enough. But could you give me two or three examples of such soul-stirring works?
quote:I remember how you feel about Jane Austen, I think, but surely you like Tom Jones?
Um...I don't hate Tom Jones. But I'm not a big fan, either. And Dickens bores me to tears. To be honest, my "most" qualification was largely thrown in because of Moby-Dick, which may be the best novel ever written. But I tend to think of it as a proto-Modernist work rather than a 19th-century one.
quote:Once you get used to translating the images (just as you have to do with any language), then there is almost always a comic that will appeal to you.
Okay. I like prose and poetry, and I'm not big on the visual--I don't even go to movies more than two or three times a year. So based on that--and some of my likes mentioned in the first post--what will appeal to me? Posts: 100 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Loren: Okay. I like prose and poetry, and I'm not big on the visual--I don't even go to movies more than two or three times a year. So based on that--and some of my likes mentioned in the first post--what will appeal to me?
posted
Hrm. You really think Moby Dick is the best novel ever written? How many years are you removed from college lit?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I enjoyed Persepolis, and I recommend Craig Thompson's Blankets. It's a story about belief in God, childhood, and first love, beautifully written and enhanced by the fact that it's a graphic novel.
My understanding is that a comic book is something that was published serially while a graphic novel was not. Neither Persepolis nor Blankets was published in serial form-- both were published initially as complete books.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let me be a little more specific on the recommendation of Sandman : Start out with the sixth collected volume, "Fables and Reflections", which includes the story "Ramadan". That story has real power, and it absolutely needs both words and images to convey its power, so it's a very good example of how comics work at their best.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was actually asking you, because someone who's going for a MA in literature is going to be interested in different comic books than someone who read Moby Dick years ago and believed his professor when he/she said it was the best novel ever. I was also being condescending, but I hope you overlook that. *grin*
If you're doing the MA thing, I'd recommend Mr. Punch,Signs,Blankets, and Sandman: Fables and Reflections right off the top. That's usually a punch to the solar plexus for literature majors.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
My parents used to give me a hard time about reading comics. But one day I pointed out to them that comics are actually midway between books and TV/movies. In books, you supply the audio and the visual. In TV/movies, it's spoonfed to you. And in comics, you get the visual, though not entirely; you still have to supply the motion yourself.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have never been able to enjoy comic books. I get all the way through and realize that I've read all the words but forgot to look at the pictures.
I also go to the zoo and spend the vast majority of my time reading the signs about the animals instead of actually looking at the animals, so I think I'm on an extreme end of some sort of verbal vs image processing spectrum.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would also like to add that even if you never love comics, the more you learn about the medium, the more you appreciate it. My whole family has always been into comics, but I've also invested time in learning about it as a cultural phenomenon and as an artform - which I wholeheartedly believe it to be.
There is a great documentary on the history of comics as we know them from a superhero standpoint that airs on, TLC, I think?
My second eldest brother is a comic artist and went to Savannah College of Art and Design for a BFA in sequential art. I attended the Comics Art Forum with him that SCAD holds every year. There are lots of workshops and a big panel discussion, and I learned even more about the challenges and beautiful aspects of telling a story through colliding still images. I have attended comic conventions with great panels; talked to writers and artists both formally and informally; attended lectures discussing comics in our culture ie: comics and spirituality; read books analyzing or critiquing the artform; worked for three years in an expansive comic shop with a lot of customers in the industry; and have read a whole lotta comics books spanning all genres. Just like studying film or classic literature, it gives you new appreciation. Appreciation isn't always synonymous with love, but it does change your views.
I'd also like to note that my BFF that works in the story department at Pixar used to hate trying to read comics. She also had trouble reading the words and pictures together in a way that flowed. I brought home some comics I thought she might like, and after some more practice she started to love it. When I went back to reading comics after a several years off, I had to retrain my eye and brain.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
There's a few stellar works in the field of comics, much like any medium, but my opinion of the average rank-and-file comics consumer (e.g. the guy who goes out weekly and buys the latest JLA/Civil War/Flash) is that they are masochists.
Seriously, at this point over 90% of everything I hear from comic book readers is complaints. Complaints about artwork, editorial meddling, terrible storylines, specific artists and writers, flameout series, and the endless and increasingly untenable cycle of death and inevetable ressurection for any and all profitable characters. And yet these people are still plunking down cash on entire series productions just so that they can strip the plastic off of this week's crap and then lament about how it's crap.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Samp, that's for every medium, I swear. Of course that's all you hear. Endless rounds of "love! Love! Love! Love!" is incredibly boring and those that feel that way can't match the volume of those who dislike it.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
They're not masochists (well, maybe they are, but that doesn't explain this behavior). They're nerds. Finding fault - no matter how miniscule and niggling - with the things they enjoy is one of their top 3 past times.
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Seriously, at this point over 90% of everything I hear from comic book readers is complaints. Complaints about artwork, editorial meddling, terrible storylines, specific artists and writers, flameout series, and the endless and increasingly untenable cycle of death and inevetable ressurection for any and all profitable characters. And yet these people are still plunking down cash on entire series productions just so that they can strip the plastic off of this week's crap and then lament about how it's crap.
What plastic? Anyway, we're committed to the characters, is all. It's no different than continuing to watch a TV show even when it's going through a slump. Other than the money, that is.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom, because you asked so nicely, I will indeed overlook it. But yeah, I had actually never read Moby-Dick until I decided to do an English M.A. and had to read it for a required American Lit. class. And I was blown away. And it's one of the few "classics" that I can just sit down and read for fun with as much pleasure as, say, the latest Orhan Pamuk or George R.R. Martin.
scholar, I've actually read some of Maus because a friend was working on her M.A. thesis on a related subject.
dkw, I'm the same way! I'm much more verbal than visual. Although I do enjoy the visual arts. Hmm. Maybe it's the combination that throws us. (I actually just typed "throws up." Heh. A little parapraxis there?)
For those that have given suggestions, I've written four or five down and will stop by my local library (in a few weeks--I'm leaving the country tomorrow).
And if it earns me any brownie points with the comic-reading public, I did enjoy The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay. Posts: 100 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think people not fond of the manga "genre" should check out a series called Parasyte, which is slowly being reprinted again (with a new translation job, though even as a "purest" I have to admit I was fonder of the older Americanized translation).
Posts: 299 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I consider Goodbye, Chunky Rice to be superior to Blankets, mainly because Craig resorts to stereotypes and stock characters during the last third of the latter...after so carefully avoiding them beforehand.
For atypical super-hero fare try Madman and Astro City.
For a "hard" SF story, try Planetes.
For two-fisted historical fiction, try The Northwest Passage.
For fantasy, try The Courageous Princess, Usagi Yojimbo or Bone.
For humor, try Amelia Rules.
For a cross-genre journey through England, complete with hope of healing from child abuse and a look at the career Beatrix Potter from a unique perspective try The Tale of One Bad Rat.
For a good anthology, try Flight.
For an intense, unsettling, very human crime comic try Stray Bullets.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
Look up Ichi the Killer and read that series. It'll change your mind about comics (manga in particular) and ultra violence.
Though if you're only capable of enjoying a certain elite class of culture, why on earth are you even asking this question? Your op baffles me. You should be able to answer your own question, and the fact that you can't makes the whole post smell like a parading of your super duper intelligence.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Maybe I'm just different, but I don't think the comic-style of drawing really lends itself to action scenes. I've tried reading the corresponding manga for a few anime series that I like and I get incredibly lost trying to decipher fight scenes in comics as compared to animation.
I have this same problem. Too much visual information in a small small; brain can't process it. It's the same thing that happens to me when I see movies in the theater, except in that case it's too LARGE a space. TV is juuuuuuust right.
I haven't read many comics. A few books of Sandman. Some Buffy. Fray, which I thought was excellent. And actually, the action in that series works well for me. I think it's because the artist chose to draw the moment just before or just after the action; the brain fills in the rest of what happened.
One comic I've read that I find especially well done is <b>Fell</b>. I was at the comic book shop, looking to branch out from Buffy comics a bit, and the cover of Fell caught my eye. It has a starker look than the rest of the comics on the shelf: a large expense of white, some text in Courier, and a muted image in dirty, ashy tones. And then I saw it was by Warren Ellis, who I knew at the time from the leaked Global Frequency pilot, and that was enough to sell me on it. It's dark--REALLY dark--and gritty, and a bit sad, but the twists in the story and the leaps of logic are very fun. What I really adore about the series, though, is at the end of each book there's several pages of Warren talking about how he came up with the idea for this issue's story. It's fascinating to me as someone who's interested in the writing process, and I think it might be interesting to someone who's into literature.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Please. If I wanted to make a thread parading my own super-duper intelligence, it would be much more interesting and to the point. Plus its brilliance would probably hurt your eyes, and I don't want that on my conscience.
Posts: 100 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Comic Books is too broad a catagory for one answer. I had subscriptions to "Los Super Machos" and later, when Rius lost rights to the name, "Los Agachados". I used them to learn idomatic Spanish and Mexican cultural patterns, and to understand Latin American social populism. At the time, there was no better source for any of the above.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I came back from making my last post, I found this in the cue. It is a copy of a first edition of Los Super Machos. I had forgotten how fun they were. If there are any Spanish speakers taking a break from work this pm, they might enjoy it.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:What plastic? Anyway, we're committed to the characters, is all. It's no different than continuing to watch a TV show even when it's going through a slump. Other than the money, that is.
That's one of two parts of it. You don't have to fork over hamiltons to follow a TV show and I never ever ever hear people complaining about any media more than I hear them complain about comics.
Also the whole industry is stuck in a self-cycling juvenile blowout.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: ... I never ever ever hear people complaining about any media more than I hear them complain about comics.
Also the whole industry is stuck in a self-cycling juvenile blowout.
Lisa's right, that's just part of the fun Every comic nerd is an expert, and gets to throw around their two cents about how the new writer/artist is handling the characters. This is especially fun with characters that have become a part of our American folklore. Aaaand it's a great social activity.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by scholar: Maus by Art Spiegleman
I am not usually into comic books/graphic novels. They just don't hold my attention the way books do.
But Maus is powerful, well-done, and I enjoyed it (well, as much as you can enjoy a painful examination of a man's personal experience of the Holocaust and its repercussions on his relationship with his family.) It held me like a book. And it was worth re-reading several years later. In fact, when I'm done being pregnant and hormonal, I'll probably read it again.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by porcelain girl: Every comic nerd is an expert, and gets to throw around their two cents about how the new writer/artist is handling the characters. This is especially fun with characters that have become a part of our American folklore. Aaaand it's a great social activity.
Speaking of which, sis, have you read the latest Captain America? If they kill Sharon Carter off -again-...*shakes fist* Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've never been able to enjoy comics. For me, it's because I have my own ideas about what a character looks like and it ruins it for me when the artist's conception is different from mine (which is always). I'm too compulsive to let it go. I also usually hate when they make movies of books I like, for the same reason. It's frustrating for me because I find the stories compelling. I wish there were summaries (without pictures) of the stories somewhere.
I've also found that many people who are very into comics react badly upon finding out that I don't like them. I've never been ugly about it - I don't consider them an inferior art/lit form, they just don't do it for me.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: I've never been able to enjoy comics. For me, it's because I have my own ideas about what a character looks like and it ruins it for me when the artist's conception is different from mine (which is always).
It seems like that would only be a problem when the character in question did not originate in the comics artform.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
But I'm not a big fan, either. And Dickens bores me to tears. To be honest, my "most" qualification was largely thrown in because of Moby-Dick, which may be the best novel ever written. But I tend to think of it as a proto-Modernist work rather than a 19th-century one.![[Cool]](cool.gif)
