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Author Topic: A great story about love, loss, and the importance of friends, plus Harlan Ellison
Morbo
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My brother just emailed me about this real life story in the LA Weekly News. It's hard for me to sum up completely. Trust me: it's worth reading all 6 pages. It's not about the historical Jesse James. But it's funny, sad, touching and appalling (not violent).

The Life and Death of Jesse James

edit: some spoilers below

[ October 18, 2007, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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James Tiberius Kirk
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I read this earlier this week. Sad stuff. Part of the confrontation video they mention at the end is/was up on YouTube.

--j_k

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Noemon
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Link?
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James Tiberius Kirk
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To the video? Here.

--j_k

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Morbo
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I saw that video after I read the story. But read the story before watching the vid.
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Samprimary
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Ah, Harlan.

He's one of that breed of people whose creative engines are intrinsically linked to why they're crazy and arrogant. You know, like Hunter T.

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Noemon
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Thanks Kirk!
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Uprooted
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Wow.
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Noemon
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Anybody else think of Cedrios when they read that? What he did wasn't nearly as involved, but the difference between him and this woman is only one of degree.
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Lisa
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You had me at Harlan.
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Lisa
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Oh. My. God. What a freak.

She got off easy. I've never taken a life, but if I ever found out that someone had done that to me or a friend of mine...

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Morbo
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SPOILERS:


Yeah, she did get off easy. Except for the, the, disturbed person everyone was very mature and restrained, moreso than I would have been.

One of the weirder points is, not only did she do this elaborate, bizarre deception, she had at least one accomplice, the male voice of Jesse on the phone. Who would join such a freaky conspiracy, and keep it going for over a year? Her alleged husband?

[ October 18, 2007, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
“You shouldn’t judge,” says Tania.

I beg to differ. This is why we have judgment.

Not done reading yet but just have to say that I LOVE this passage.
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Mucus
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Cedrios?
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ketchupqueen
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SPOILERS:

I am so glad that "Audrey" had good friends. Where was this going? I shudder to think...

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Strider
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What's really messed up is that I bet this kind of thing happens more regularly than we think.
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Morbo
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Cedrios was before my time, but... basically, he was banned (I don't remember why), then came back with a new name pretending he was a new member. Repeat several times. He's the brother of someone still here-- the Analog Kid? Or whatever screen name TaK switched to?
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Strider
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I think it was more extensive than that Morbo. he didn't just try to sneak in under a new screen name, but created fake real life personas to go with the screen names with completely different stances on issues and the like. IIRC.
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Morbo
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I assume you are correct, Strider. I know some people here were very upset by the whole drama, the details of which I am ignorant.
I just read a few threads after he finally left for good, and have vague memories of those.

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xnera
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
What's really messed up is that I bet this kind of thing happens more regularly than we think.

It does. In fact, I've read enough stories of this sort of thing happening that my reaction to this one was "Oooo, a sockpuppet! And Muchausen by Internet!" as soon as Jesse was introduced to the story. Which really is kind of sad.
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Morbo
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I've heard of sockpuppets, and Munchausen syndrome. But I never connected Munchausen syndrome to the internet before this story. That is one weird pathology, even in the plain-vanilla non-internet form.

quote:
I am so glad that "Audrey" had good friends. Where was this going? I shudder to think...
I don't know ketchup queen. According to the author, it didn't seem to be about money. I wonder like you what the endgame would have been like if she wasn't outed.
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by xnera:
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
What's really messed up is that I bet this kind of thing happens more regularly than we think.

It does. In fact, I've read enough stories of this sort of thing happening that my reaction to this one was "Oooo, a sockpuppet! And Muchausen by Internet!" as soon as Jesse was introduced to the story. Which really is kind of sad.
Yeah, I knew what was coming when Jesse first got mentioned. That is kinda sad.
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Morbo:
SPOILERS:

One of the weirder points is, not only did she do this elaborate, bizarre deception, she had at least one accomplice, the male voice of Jesse on the phone. Who would join such a freaky conspiracy, and keep it going for over a year? Her alleged husband?

She may not have had one. Her voice is deep enough that I could believe that she might be able to fake a male voice.
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Morbo
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I thought I saw where it was going when the internet-guy-she-never-actually-meets was introduced too. But the twist that it was a woman, or group, behind the whole lie was unexpected.
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ketchupqueen
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Well, seeing as the "friend" who "introduced" them was a woman, I kinda thought it was her from the beginning.

BTW, it was well written enough that I didn't mind knowing where it was going at all. I started to watch the video but the written version was much better so I quit halfway through.

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James Tiberius Kirk
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Yeah, I was spoiled by the person who originally linked me to it, but this bit would've tipped anyone off:

quote:
Anyway, Janna knows this guy named Jesse, and she thinks he and Audrey would get along. She “introduces” them online, and they hit it off. Jesse is an amazing dude, a volunteer fireman, a cowboy, a tortured poet, a man with a past. He has an ex-wife he speaks of fondly, and a son. He lives on a ranch with llamas. He’s got posttraumatic stress disorder from having been in New York on 9/11. He knew some of the firemen who died, or something. An exceptional man. He and Audrey just click, in that special way we all hope can happen someday.
--j_k

[ October 18, 2007, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]

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porcelain girl
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Ah! I am glad someone posted this. I used the wrong part of my LA Weekly for laying out hot cookies. The article had caught my eye during the intitial flip through. Sadly it was cookied, along with the escort and strip club ads.
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Tatiana
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Several thoughts went through my mind. First, of course, was that the guy who was too good to be true wasn't. But next I was put in mind of Banner of Heaven (a fake blog) and other "performance art" that masqueraded as reality, and I remembered that a lot of the people involved in this were writers, and now I'm wondering if this story purporting to be a true story isn't the thing that's actually fake. Like, maybe they are thinking how avant garde they are by exploring the boundaries between fiction and reality, by telling a story about someone who smears that very boundary.

I mean, here they're (possibly) warning us about people who tell lies online, by telling lies online. Wouldn't that seem clever to some writers?

Pathological liars fool people in real life, and on the internet alike. Because most people accept what people say unskeptically. Generally people trust to about the same extent as they are trustworthy. Liars suspect every word while truth-tellers generally believe. Thieves think everyone is trying to take their stuff. Cheaters think everyone cheats. This is a general principle. [Smile]

Anyway, this was an intriguing story but I'm not completely positive which part was fictional, the story within the story, or the story itself. [Smile]

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Strider
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ahhhh...very House of Leavesish.
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BannaOj
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Well if you google the name of the villian (and that is her actual picture apparently) you'll find the blog of "audrey" There is also a video of the confrontation.

She corrected a few factual errors but nothing major, and has more detail.

But yeah it could be a hoax of a hoax, though it seems to involved for that, given the details about the two forums that were affected.

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porcelain girl
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That was astounding, and possibly one of my favorite articles I've ever read. Did anyone else wonder whose underpants she put through the mail?

edit: read the victim's blog about the whole issue, and yeah, i'm not surprised about the shirts as that is what i had supposed intitially. But it is still darkly intriguing to think about where the Janna lady got the shirt, and what she did to make it more authentic.

[ October 19, 2007, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: porcelain girl ]

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Strider
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lol, if you do what BannaOj says you'll find out the underpants swapping was made up! [Smile]
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CaySedai
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That whole things reminded me of a woman we were in touch with years ago. We met her in an IRC chat room, but my husband got more involved than me - and more involved than I would like.

"Angelbabe" claimed that her husband beat her. She claimed she was bulimic. Supposedly she fell in love with my husband, and so did her sister. [Roll Eyes] The "sister" sent pictures of herself to Kent - the kind I don't want to see or have on my computer. Supposedly the sister was driving to meet Kent (supposedly not invited) and was in a car accident and died. Then this woman died or was killed by her husband. I think she just got tired of the game. That whole incident cost us money in phone calls.

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Morbo
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Do you guys think the anonymity of the internet makes people lie more, or lie more easily, than RL? Or is it just harder to catch them lying?
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camus
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quote:
Do you guys think the anonymity of the internet makes people lie more, or lie more easily, than RL?
Hmm, that's a good question. I'm not sure that people actually lie more often on the internet, but the ability for the lies to be much more extensive seems like it might be greater on the internet than in RL.

It reminds me of this story.
quote:
The 22 year-old Gardner allegedly visited Stillwater Area High School in Minnesota three times, telling students he was 17-year-old Caspian James Crichton-Stuart IV, 5th Duke of Cleveland and expressing an interest in enrolling in the high school.[7] Assuming an English accent, Gardner reportedly insisted on being called "your grace", claimed he was 27th in line for the British throne and that he was friends with Prince Harry.
...
In July 2006, Gardner was arrested and charged on three sexual-conduct charges, including two felonies, following allegations involving a 15-year-old boy in Chanhassen, Minnesota during the summer of 2005, several months before the Stillwater High School incident.[5] Carver County prosecutors said Gardner used the same fake identity with the Chaska High School student, who came forward after seeing media coverage of Gardner in January


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SenojRetep
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
Several thoughts went through my mind. First, of course, was that the guy who was too good to be true wasn't. But next I was put in mind of Banner of Heaven (a fake blog) and other "performance art" that masqueraded as reality, and I remembered that a lot of the people involved in this were writers, and now I'm wondering if this story purporting to be a true story isn't the thing that's actually fake. Like, maybe they are thinking how avant garde they are by exploring the boundaries between fiction and reality, by telling a story about someone who smears that very boundary.
...Anyway, this was an intriguing story but I'm not completely positive which part was fictional, the story within the story, or the story itself. [Smile]

That was my thought. And I _love_ that the support for veracity that BannanaOj gave was googling for more online information.

I mean, I imagine it's true, and even if it isn't it certainly could be. The point isn't that we shouldn't be careful. I guess, I just see how this could be an extremely creative way of artistic expression in a society trying to come to grips with the boundaries between voyeurism, reality, anonymity and entertainment.

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Tatiana
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It could be real, and yet the amount of detail they'd have to invent to have made it up (including the youtube video) is far less than the amount of detail the woman supposedly invented to support her story of the fictitious fireman. So who knows? They are writers, i.e. people who make a living thinking up intriguing stories. [Smile] I'm totally in a superposition of states about it, and can see it either way if I try. Sort of like seeing that lady spin clockwise or counterclockwise in that thread the other day. I can go back and forth.
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Lisa
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Harlan Ellison would have heard of it by now, and he'd have blown a gasket.
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Tatiana
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I was thinking he might be the one who masterminded it. He likes controversy, I seem to remember.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Brilliant hypothesizin', Tatiana. That's an intriguing and very real possibility.

I hadn't read about the Banner of Heaven blog. How bizarre.

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Morbo
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I suppose it's possible it's not real, but I highly doubt it.

2 good reasons:
Janna St. James was definitely scamming on Dan Fogelburg fan sites since at least 2003, and from what I read, 1996. 11 years is a long time to prepare for a magazine article.

The person in the YouTube vid and whose picture is at the end of the article will become infamous as a fraud. Who would volunteer for that?

[ October 21, 2007, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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steven
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What if they took the real facts of Janna St. James and concocted something?

Yes, the lady in the video will become infamous as a fraud, but...she may simply be an actress who was desperate for a part. It is Hollywood.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Janna St. James was definitely scamming on Dan Fogelburg fan sites since at least 2003, and from what I read, 1996.
What is your evidence for this? Could that evidence be fabricated?
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Tatiana
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Yeah, do you know someone on those sites who will vouch for this?

You may well be right. Like I said, I can see it either way. Something that happened (in real life) to a friend of mine recently brought it home to me that scammers are everywhere. But that idea makes me equally skeptical of this story, for some reason.

Banner of Heaven was justified as some sort of avant garde performance art. In my opinion that was a fancy way of saying "we lied to you, suckerZZ!!!". Performance art of all sorts works perfectly well and has great effect without the necessity of lying to the audience. [Smile]

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mr_porteiro_head
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Another thought -- if this story is fake, it would make sense for them to picked Janna St. James because evidence of somebody named that scamming on those sites was out there for them to find.
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Morbo
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Porter, here's a thread from 2003, groups.google.com/group/alt.music.dan-folgelburg that has a scammer named Janna that does the "St. James Shuffle".
http://tinyurl.com/378tke
It also mentions the "corn field incident" as a tragedy. I assume that is the same as the alleged gang rape in a field mentioned in the article. I don't think you could plant/fabricate that evidence out of thin air recently. Using sock puppets, I suppose you could have back in 2003.

I don't remember where I saw the 1996 reference but I think I bookmarked it.

edit: Here's the 1996 reference. It's reprinted on a 2003 google groups.
http://tinyurl.com/2st7hu

Here's "Audrey"'s blog:
http://pieceofcakey.blogspot.com/

"Audrey" says there are links to many other blogs apparently all done by "Janna" or accomplices. I haven't gone through the blog to find more links.
quote:
1. The copies of all the various blogs I'm linking to were the actual blogs of other people, or, in this case, other person, being that Janna wrote most of them: "Jesse's" blog, "Alice's" blog, most of the "Jesse" tribute blog, "Cakey's" blog, the "AuTeam" blog. And of course her own.


[ October 21, 2007, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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Threads
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That story made me think of this one, which took place on a forum I read. It's not nearly as bad as the Jesse James one though.
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steven
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None of this precludes Ellison or the other dude from having used real-world facts to make a more believable story.
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