posted
This is mostly aimed at rivka/Tante/Lisa, but I'm open to advice from any and all who have experience in this area.
First, some background: My fiancee and I are an interfaith couple. She was raised in a very reformed household and is herself almost a secular Jew at this point. I was raised in a Catholic household, though I consider myself fully recovered - although I still celebrate the secular/pagan side of the Christian holidays.
We are planning an interfaith wedding, with elements from both sides: chupa, breaking glass, hora, unity candle (possibly), priest and rabbi conducting service, etc.
Second, the dilemma: My fiancee's mother feels that the parents of the bridge and groom should be standing at the altar, under the chupa, during the ceremony. Her argument is that this is "how it is done" - and that all the weddings they have gone to have been staged that way. She also feels that both she and her husband should walk their daughter down the aisle, instead of just her father.
My fiancee is is of a different mind.
My own parents aren't likely to want to stand in front the entire time either, and my mother would not physically be able to stand that long. Her mother's response was that they could have chairs.
Third (last), my questions: What are the actual customs surrounding parents and the chupa in a Jewish wedding ceremony? Or just the customs surrounding parents in a Jewish wedding ceremony? Have you been to any interfaith ceremonies that might provide insight into this situation? What sort of compromises might be made?
Any insight would be appreciated.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not a Jewish answer, but both of my parents walked me down the aisle at our very Methodist wedding. And Bob's mom walked in with him. I know other couples who've done the same -- the bride and groom each escorted by their parents.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
At my interfaith wedding, we compromised. I came down with my parents, and they sat just outside the chuppah (first row) and her parents brought her down, and likewise sat.
posted
In all the weddings in my family (and so far as I can remember, all the ones I've been in, many of which were Jewish weddings) the parents have sat in the first row near the aisle.
There is the officiant(s) in the middle, the bride and groom just outside them or in front of them, the best man/maid(matron) of honor, then the bridesmaids and groomsmen. The parents have always, to my memory, been in the first row - though I have seen them come up for portions before returning to their seats.
Her mother finds the whole concept of sitting in the first row jarring, it seems. Alternately, I'm pretty sure my parents would find standing/sitting up at the alter pretty jarring, as well.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry. Can't help you there. I'd recommend that you do it however it's done in a church. Worrying about the how Jews do it is a little odd, given the circumstances.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had a girlfriend once who was rather fond of proclaiming, "My mother was Jewish, my father was Catholic, but I'm Protestant!" She says that as a child growing up, she protested alot.
Seriously, you are not going to be able to please everyone. So just make sure you please yourselves. Surely God will be pleased just to be included. That will honor Him.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Seriously, you are not going to be able to please everyone. So just make sure you please yourselves. Surely God will be pleased just to be included. That will honor Him."
Its not often I agree with what Ron says, but... I agree here.
Do what makes you happy. Its your wedding, not your parents.
At the weddings I've been to, the parents are not under teh Chuppah. But that doesn't mean they can't be at yours, if its what you want.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Do what makes you happy. Its your wedding, not your parents.
Perhaps, but one of the most important reasons for having a wedding (as opposed to eloping or a short ceremony before the justice of the peace) is so that you can include all the people who are important to you.
My husband and I were very lucky that no one in either family had particularly strong opinions about what we should or shouldn't do. It was pretty easy to find compromises that made everyone happy. But even if those compromises are not easy, I think its important to make the effort.
Ten years from now you won't remember who stood where at your wedding. You will be lucky if you can remember what food was served at the reception or what the flowers looked like. But you will remember if the whole family was angry about some detail or the other.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think my fiancee's question is more whether this is actually a Jewish custom or not - to have the parents under the chupa for the entire ceremony.
Her mother seems to think it is - but her mother also seems to think both parents are supposed to give the bride away, which doesn't strike me as a traditional Jewish custom at all (I don't remember the mother being mentioned in any ketubahs I've heard translated, at least. Pretty much always seemed like a contract between the father and husband-to-be).
There's a fair amount of family tension on this subject, and she's looking for some outside insight as to whether these are or are not standard, or even common, practices.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
You may have difficulty getting an answer to this question because many Jews, particularly orthodox Jews, are opposed to interfaith marriages and are offended by ceremonies like the one you are planning. As a result, they probably aren't going to volunteer their help.
If you have a Rabbi who is participating in the ceremony, he may be your best resource. Of course, if he is her mothers Rabbit, he may not want to insert himself into the fight.
It seems to me that the real problem is that your future MIL wants to walk down the aisle with her daughter and stand under the chupa with her and you (and your future wife?) don't want to do it that way. I suspect that the issue isn't really that she is convinced this is a Jewish tradition that must be followed but that she wants to be included in a central way in your wedding. Your problem isn't as simple to resolve as finding an authoritative source that says it need not be done that way. You need to find a roll for your future MIL in your wedding that will make both you and her happy.
And while Paul is right that you don't have to make your MIL happy about the wedding arrangements, an unhappy Mother can cause more generally unhappiness at a wedding than a Mother who is standing somewhere you don't like.
[ December 17, 2007, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: You may have difficulty getting an answer to this question because many Jews, particularly orthodox Jews, are opposed to interfaith marriages and are offended by ceremonies like the one you are planning. As a result, they probably aren't going to volunteer their help.
That would be true. If it helps any, it's customary for Jews to marry only Jews.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well I don't see any reason why the Rabbi couldn't also be a Rabbit. Rabbitude can be often be invisible and immaterial.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
The difficulty is that her mother wants to be very intrusive into all aspects of the wedding, and mine does not. This makes things difficult.
The two of us don't really want either set of parents to be very intrusive, but we understand the spirit of compromise and are looking for some solution that could make both sides happy.
As for asking the Rabbi performing the ceremony, we haven't chosen an officiant yet. We have had some referrals to a few priest/rabbi pairings (usually retired on both sides), but we have not yet met with any to discuss things. Our other option would be to go with a Unitarian, or an entirely non-religious entity. It's really going to be about who we feel most comfortable with after talking with them.
So, that avenue isn't open yet - though it is something we will likely explore.
As for the unhappy mother, it seems like we're in a damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't scenario. My mother's knees will not allow her to stand anywhere for an entire ceremony, and would not want to be front and center - while hers definitely wants to be right on top of the action at all times.
As for orthodox Jews being opposed to interfaith marriages, they would have considered my fiancee and her family "bad Jews" long before I ever entered the picture. I'm taking Lisa's comments with the same grain of salt I take with nearly everything else she says.
I figured that Hatrack, being the font of information that it ordinarily is, would be an avenue to explore to gain some insight from those who are more familiar with Jewish customs.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I'm taking Lisa's comments with the same grain of salt I take with nearly everything else she says.
Flying Cow, I wish you all the best in your marriage and hope you find a solution for the wedding dilemma that all can be happy with. I just wanted to point out that you did ask for Lisa's input in the first line of your original post, so that seems a little harsh.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd recommend finding a Rabbi and abiding by his [or her?] counsel on the matter. Even if you do get an opinion on some person from the internet, is that really going to placate the MIL to be? Also, is there any financial support for the wedding coming from either side? P.S. I'm not saying financial support should determine what happens, just that it should be considered in taking a look at people's views.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, parents usually stand under the chuppah. Since you are picking and choosing which Jewish wedding customs to follow based on what feels right to you, why don't you make a similar choice here.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with Rabbit that the issue here is not really Jewish traditions, it’s about how your mother-in-law to be has visualized her role in her daughter’s wedding vs. how you and your fiancée have visualized your parents’ roles. So finding an “authoritative” opinion on the tradition isn’t going to do you any good, since that’s not really what this is about. In fact, it will likely make things worse, because you’ll be contributing to an argument about the side issue/rationale rather than directly addressing the real issue.
I also find it interesting that you use the work “intrusive” to describe your future mother-in-law’s participation. Perhaps you are only referring to her pushiness in the planning process, but it sounds to me like you think that having the parents present at the front of the ceremony would be intrusive.
Lastly, if neither of you are at all religious I would encourage you to find a secular officiant and have a completely non-religious ceremony. You are making important promises to each other, and to have them enclosed in the half-truths or outright lies about your beliefs that would be inherent in participating in a religious ceremony is not a good way to start your marriage.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think Lisa's point was that you could mention to her mother that nothing in your wedding is 'how it's done' with respect to Judaism, because marrying outside the faith is one of the most disrespectful* things an Orthodox Jew can do.
Instead of getting mad at her, you might realize that she gave you a pretty good argument to use with you future MIL. It wasn't an insult.
Ultimately, however, you or your girlfriend are going to have to tell her to butt out. Nicely, though.
*Probably not the best word, but I can't think of a better one off the top of my head.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I'm taking Lisa's comments with the same grain of salt I take with nearly everything else she says.
Flying Cow, I wish you all the best in your marriage and hope you find a solution for the wedding dilemma that all can be happy with. I just wanted to point out that you did ask for Lisa's input in the first line of your original post, so that seems a little harsh.
And yet, not even a little bit surprising.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I think Lisa's point was that you could mention to her mother that nothing in your wedding is 'how it's done' with respect to Judaism, because marrying outside the faith is one of the most disrespectful* things an Orthodox Jew can do.
Instead of getting mad at her, you might realize that she gave you a pretty good argument to use with you future MIL. It wasn't an insult.
<blink> Well. That's actually true. I mean, the part about that it's a pretty good argument to use with her. But while I appreciate the benefit of the doubt, I actually did post it with a bit of snark in mind. It wasn't intended as an insult in any way (not to FlyingCow, at any rate -- my ire in cases of intermarriage is always for the Jew), but I didn't have your suggestion in mind.
I just honestly don't get how such questions can even arise. It's like asking what blessing to say on a ham sandwich. Or whether it's okay to obliterate the laws of Shabbat in order to drive to synagogue and pray to the God who told you not to do that. The rabbis even had a term for it. "Tovel, v'sheretz b'yado". It means immersing in a ritual bath while holding an impure animal. Immersing is for the purpose of purification, so doing so while holding something that makes you impure is the height of lunacy.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is this entirely helpful? From the OP it seems that "She was raised in a very reformed household and is herself almost a secular Jew at this point."
We should be discussing what is appropriate for a interfaith wedding between a reformed/secular Jew and a cultural Christian rather than what seems to be bordering on a discussion as to whether an Orthodox Jew should marry a gentile (or whether secular Jews should exist).
I suspect that MC has enough stress preparing the wedding in the first place rather than worrying about the latter issue (or two).
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Uprooted, you're right. I did ask. Even though Lisa and I have had (considerable) disagreements in the past, I do respect her as someone very knowledgable in this particular area.
Though, I will also take her responses with the appropriate grain of salt - meaning, I'm not taking offense to them. I have made it a point not to take anything Lisa says too personally. My fiancee was a little peeved by her answers, but I know from past experience it is not worth arguing about.
dkw, I was actually referring to both - though I can understand where she is coming from, somewhat.
She's afraid that her daughter's wedding will be like her elder son's wedding. At that time, she was excluded from virtually everything - planning, ceremony, pictures, and even a relationship with the new wife after the wedding (which has improved since, for what it's worth).
I understand that she doesn't want a repeat scenario - though part of the exclusion last time was that she pushed so hard pre-wedding that the bride got frustrated enough to cut her out almost completely.
So, she wants to be involved - and we want her to be involved. We're just trying to figure out to what extent, which is difficult.
From outside investigation, I've found that it is customary for the bride and groom to be escorted down the aisle by both parents. As for the parents standing beneath the chupah for the entire ceremony, I'm still looking into it. Two Jewish (reformed) couples that I asked said they had their parents seated in the first row.
posted
It seems to me that the issue isn't really what is customary or appropriate. I do not advocate telling your prospective mother in law that, since she isn't Jewish enough to mind her daughter marrying you, the question is moot. Since the question is kind of moot, though, it does give you some freedom to decide what kind of ceremony works best for you and your family without having to worry about what is customary. What is meaningful to you and your fiance and your families? Maybe sitting down and having that conversation would help your MIL to feel more included so she won't have to push so much?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
kmbboots, you're right (at least in my mind). The initial question came up because her mother said it was traditional, and *that's* why it had to be done. We were curious whether that was the case, or whether she just believed it to be the case.
I figured I'd ask here.
We are going to have to sit down and talk - though I'm likely going to have to be the mediator, because tensions rise quickly when they start pushing each others' buttons.
We just want to have our facts straight before walking into that particular situation.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I just honestly don't get how such questions can even arise. It's like asking what blessing to say on a ham sandwich.
I'm sure Reformed Jews can eat a ham sandwich one day, and then fast for Yom Kippur on another. While I understand this may make them "Bad Jews" in the eyes of some, to them they are just selecting which parts of the faith are important for them.
It is important to my fiancee, as far from orthodox as she is, to get married under a chupah, to break the glass, to have a ketubah, etc. We're bringing in elements of both religions - as distasteful and confusing as that may be to someone who is orthodox.
It occurs to me that I would have had a far better response to this question had I simply said I was writing a novel where a character was attending a Jewish wedding and that I was looking to understand the customs for background information.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:It wasn't intended as an insult in any way (not to FlyingCow, at any rate -- my ire in cases of intermarriage is always for the Jew)...
Note: insulting a man's fiancee is not generally an improvement.
And your point is? I was correcting a misstatement; not trying to justify what I said. A Jew who marries out is a bad Jew.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Uprooted, you're right. I did ask. Even though Lisa and I have had (considerable) disagreements in the past, I do respect her as someone very knowledgable in this particular area.
Though, I will also take her responses with the appropriate grain of salt - meaning, I'm not taking offense to them. I have made it a point not to take anything Lisa says too personally. My fiancee was a little peeved by her answers, but I know from past experience it is not worth arguing about.
<blink> You know I'm on this thread, and you showed it to your fiancee anyway? Wow.
Although... that's actually not a bad idea. Print the thread out and show it to your MIL. I suspect she'll drop the subject after that.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Quite a bit. One way of looking at it might be shoplifting, vs shoplifting and shooting the cashier on the way out.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
Well, quite a bit, actually. Jews who don't keep kosher may still fast for Yom Kippur, just as Christians who eat meat on Fridays may still fast for Lent.
In a non-orthodox point of view, not observing one religious rule/custom does not preclude observing others.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Though, thinking about it, Lisa might not accept "Jews who don't keep kosher" as being Jews at all.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
But to use Paul's example, marrying out is an awful lot like shooting the cashier on the way out, and trying to blow up the store, to boot.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Why, Paul? If you aren't obligated to keep it, why bother at all?
Because keeping it (to whatever extent one does so) enhances and improves one's life (is spiritually rewarding).
Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
"That's not true. I even accept Jews who marry out and eat on Yom Kippur as Jews."
Thats at least mildly dishonest, since you've in the past said that you don't consider the vast majority of the world's jews as jews (ie all non-orthodox jews).
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know... it's not like I'm Palestinian, Lisa. (kidding!)
Actually, it doesn't look like either of my fiancee's siblings will be marrying within the faith, either. One has already married a Catholic, and the other likely won't marry Jewish. Neither my sister nor I married/are marrying Catholics, either.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: "That's not true. I even accept Jews who marry out and eat on Yom Kippur as Jews."
Thats at least mildly dishonest, since you've in the past said that you don't consider the vast majority of the world's jews as jews (ie all non-orthodox jews).
Produce an example of my having said that -- ever -- or retract it and apologize. You're lying.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's like you're going out of your way to make sure what you say is as harsh and offensive as possible.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, no I am not lying, Lisa. i might be mistaken (I'm not, and I'll see if I can come up with a search string that will bring up the thread in which papa janitor ended up ruling that your statements about reform jews not being jews was equivalent to evangelical christian statements about mormons not being christian, and therefore against the rules), but I am not lying, which explicitly means that I am stating something I know to be false. So while I'm trying out a variety of search strings, I'll repeat your statement back to you:
Retract and apologize, or provide proof that I know that you never made any such statement.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The burden of proof isn't on me, Paul. You claimed that I said something that I've never said, ever. It was offensive. And I think you do know it to be false. In any event, if you didn't, you should be more careful before accusing people of things like that.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember it as well. There is not the slightest chance I'm going to expend any effort in finding it, but I remember a dismissal of non-orthodox Jews as not real Jews.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
(kidding!)
