posted
Porter, do you also rule the day? Are you feeling the irresistible urge to request information on "penis mightiers"?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I'm hoping the sequel will finally explain to me what some of the Lonely Mountain dwarves were doing off in Moria. Was there a big falling out and that's why they hadn't heard about Moria's fall even though everything was cobwebby when they got there? Plus, the fall of Moria would look incredible on screen.
Missed this earlier. There was no falling out that I know of. Balin led a group of Dwarves away to recolonize Moria against the wishes of Dain in Erebor. But after a few years the Orcs destroyed the colony. I think it was a bit of a fakeout that Gimli was all "roaring fires and malt beer!" in the movie, they knew very well that it was highly unlikely there'd be survivors, but they hoped they could slip by without anyone noticing since the orcs were thinned after the Battle of Five Armies.
"The Fall of Moria" happened a thousand years earlier really, when Durin's Bane was unearthed. The fall of Balin's company I would imagine wasn't all that impressive to see, since after only five years I doubt they'd done much to erase the past 1,000 years of orc filth.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Tom, I don't care what purpose Tolkien had with including the Scouring of the Shire. Whatever metaphor he may have had in mind, it detracted from the story artistically. The story was over with the defeat of Sauron.
This, of course, is an old debate, along with the omission of Tom Bombadil.
Lyr, you said: "The fall of Balin's company I would imagine wasn't all that impressive to see, since after only five years I doubt they'd done much to erase the past 1,000 years of orc filth."
How then was it that the Dwarves "dug too deep" in their greed, and awakened a Balrog? (As Gandalf implies in Fellowship of the Ring.) It sounded like he was talking about Balin's company. Surely they would not have tried to recolonize Moria if they knew a Balrog was on the loose. I agree with AvidReader, the fall of Moria (in Balin's day) would look good on the screen.
And oh yes, please, please, let's see some Dwarf women! Beards and all!
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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He was referring to Durin's Bane, which took place a thousand years ago. Dwarves hadn't been INSIDE Moria for more than a thousand years, they had no idea what was still in there. The last time they'd actually gone to Moria was the Battle of Azunilzibar (murdered the spelling on that I know) Dain told them not to go because he feared Durin's Bane was still lurking about, as evidenced by the fact that Sauron had offered Dain three of the Dwarf rigns and Khazad-Dum back if he'd aid Sauron in getting The One Ring. But Dain didn't trust him, and we don't even know if Sauron could have controlled the Balrog if he'd wanted to. But Dain was pretty sure there was danger there, and told Balin not to go.
Balin went anyway, and of course there were still many orcs in the Misty Mountains, they weren't all killed at the Battle of Five Armies, and of course the Balrog was still there. But if you understand the mindset of Dwarves, having held the dream of recapturing the home of Durin the Deathless, lost for a thousand years, full of Mithril and untold riches of the ancient world, then you might understand why a proud dwarf like Balin could be lured by all that, despite the possible dangers within.
The fall of Moria in Balin's day would've been rather inimpressive. Relatively few dwarves in a small part of Moria. The lower levels were flooded, much of the wealth was gone, and only a small part of the city was even cleaned up and made habitable. It was a shadow of what it had been before it fell.
Oh, and on the Scouring of the Shire, the story wasn't over. Maybe the Third Age was over, and if you consider LOTR to just be a story about how Sauron fell and the TA ended then sure. But the story as a whole wasn't over. He had a very specific message in mind when he sent them back to a ruined Shire, and I think what happened there showed not only how much the Hobbits changed, but also that you can't always go back home again, you don't get to wander off and come back to nice warm, snug beds. It's also a look into what would have happened had they never gone out at all. Personally I didn't like it at first read, but over time I came to find it very important. Cinematically, given how many endings the movie already had, I'm not surprised he left it out, it would have been weird. But if he had filmed it differently, or maybe made it a DVD add on, it would have been just fine.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I only read the Simarillion once, and may have missed something. Keeping all those historical story threads straight would require more fannish dedication than I can muster, alas.
So you are saying, Lyrhawn, that Durin's Bane was the Balrog? Then Gandalf destroyed Durin's Bane! I wish they had made a point of saying that in The Two Towers (movie).
I don't care about moralizing or philosophizing about whether you can "go home again," etc. After nearly twelve hours of movie, it was time for the story to be over and done with. When Sauron exploded, that was it. After that was only denouement and tying up of loose ends. Peter Jackson saw it right.
It rather amused me when you said "the Third Age was over," and dismissed that and went on about what else Tolkien wanted to append to the story. It seems to me that the end of the Third Age is about as big a conclusion as you could want.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Don't worry, I have enough fannish dedication for the both of us.
Yes, Durin's Bane was the Balrog (called that because a thousand years earlier, Durin VI (IV? I can never get my Durins straight) had Khazad-Dum overthrown by the Balrog and orcs during his reign, and I think he was killed by it), and Gandalf defeated him on top of Durin's Tower after climbing the Unending Stair.
You get more details when you go into the Histories of Middle Earth and the other smattering of resources out there.
It was Gandalf's killing of the Balrog that allowed the Dwarves, led by Durin VII to recolonize Khazad-Dum for good in the Fourth Age.
I get how you could see the Scouring that way. But for me, I'm always going to be more interested in what happens in Middle Earth than just the end of the Third Age. I want to know what happens after.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I agree about that last--knowing what happens after. I would like to know what happens to the Hobbits in the Fourth Age. Did they eventually die out, along with the Orcs, Urukind, and Dwarves? (The Elves immigrated to America. Just kidding.) Or should we even assume that Middle Earth is a precursor to the modern world?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Tolkien I think somewhere has it written that we are currently living in like the Eighth Age of the world or something like that.
Dwarves sort of just faded back into the Earth, turned back into the stone they were created from.
Elves all went to the Undying Lands.
Hobbits are still around, but slowly they hid away from Big Folk and we don't see them anymore, also I think he wrote something about how they slowly became more like regular people, slowly getting taller and more human like.
Hobbits in the Fourth Age were just fine I think. He only wrote a bit about how things go into the Fourth Age, most in the Histories. Aragorn reestablishes his kingdom in Arnor, and Pippin is made Thain, and I think Aragorn rebuilds Annuminas, and then he gives a ton more land to the Shire and the Hobbits, more or less making them an independent country but they still are under his control technically.
I don't remember all the details off the top of my head.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: also I think he wrote something about how they slowly became more like regular people, slowly getting taller and more human like.
Well, that's what the writer of the Rankin-Bass animated adaptation of The Return of the King decided.
Of course, the evidence he gave was that Merry and Pippin were so much taller...apparently he had never bothered to read the part about ent-draught.
Heck, he also had Sam completely unaware of who Galadriel was!
Not a very good researcher. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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So yesterday I got it in my head to watch all 3 extended editions of LOTR with a couple friends (only got through two. We've done it before though) and it really made me want to read the books. The Hobbit is already on my reading list for this Christmas break. And now I'm stoked they're making it into a movie. Looks like its time for me to be a LOTR fanboy again! Now where's my copy of the Silmarillion....?
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Did the Ents ever get back together with the Ent-wives? Maybe the Hobbits facilitated this reunion, and in gratitude, the Ents provided liberal doses of Ent-draughts to all the Hobbits, causing the Hobbits to grow up and be just another kind of humans. (I think they grew up to be Canadians, but I could be wrong.)
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I think the Ent-Wives went far into the East, beyond Rhun and the sea into unknown lands. Their gardens were in the Brown Lands (well, called that now) and were destroyed during the Last Alliance.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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As for the casting list, they're picking all big name actors, which I've already expressed a dislike of for The Hobbit. I'd like to see PJ be actively involved in the casting, I trust him to not just go for big names.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I trust him to not just go for big names.
At the same time, keep in mind that Ian McKellen, Christopher Lee, Sean Astin, Elijah Wood, John Rhys-Davies, Liv Tyler, etc weren't exactly 'unknowns' either.
I'm sure they'll go for the performers they feel best fit the role. And I hope New Line's learned their lesson on 11th hour stunt casting.
quote:I'm sure they'll go for the performers they feel best fit the role. And I hope New Line's learned their lesson on 11th hour stun casting.
What do you mean? There is alot about the LOTR movies I know nothing about as I was in media blackout from 09/01-08/03
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Oh, I was referring to New Line's last minute decision to re-cast Iorek Byrnison's voice in The Golden Compass. Almost everyone I've talked with agrees: We love Ian, we love Iorek, but they aren't a good performer/character match.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Peter Jackson appeared in The Return of the King, as one of the pirate crew. How can we expect to see him show up in The Hobbit? Remember, he's svelte now.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Oh, I was referring to New Line's last minute decision to re-cast Iorek Byrnison's voice in The Golden Compass. Almost everyone I've talked with agrees: We love Ian, we love Iorek, but they aren't a good performer/character match.
In my head the casting choice does not make sense. They should have used the voice actor for Iorek from the Audio Book series of His Dark Materials.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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del Toro has shown a propensity to really dive into the source material though, as he has done a few adaptations before, so I give him a lot of credit for that, plus he's done fantasy before. I wouldn't want LOTR to look like Pan's Labyrinth, as I think Hellboy 2 sort of does from the trailer, so I worry about that, but with PJ there to approve the artistic feel of it, I'm more okay with it.
del Toro is fine with me, for the moment. I'd have to see who the other choices are, but right now I can't think of any particular reason to blackball him.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Hellboy and Mimic (the adaptation films of his that I've seen) were not very faithful to the source material. They were also annoying, boring, and forgetful.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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If you really look for it, some news has popped up in various places about the status of The Hobbit. Apparently del Toro is a regular poster over at the board for Hellboy II on Universal, which is both surprising and amazing, he actually answers tons of questions over there that people have about Hellboy, and some have asked questions about LOTR. I really hope that he'll do the same in a year when Hobbit starts to pick up. Jackson wasn't under a microscope from the public when he was filming LOTR, because most people didn't really know what was going on at the time. But this time around? Totally different story.
Anyway. Apparently between work on Avatar and Lovely Bones, a lot of artists at Weta are starting to do some very preliminary work on The Hobbit. I read a transcript of an interview between a Weta artist and a German LOTR fan site, and he was talking about already working on the Dwarves and Smaug, and how they have a new process for the Dwarf prosthetics.
Various officials at MGM have more specifically defined Jackson's role on the project. They describe it as his project specifically, and that no director or writer will be involved unless Jackson okays it. So far as I can tell, he'll be very involved with production, especially the creative side, which I'm more concerned with, and he'll merely be farming out the directing to del Toro, who, though he hasn't officially been signed on, has already started to find a production staff and worked on cast, crew and arists for the project.
It's also been hinted that if the timing works out, Jackson could take charge of the filming for the second movie. Really MGM has said he can take over the directing for both of them if he wants, but it's a matter of scheduling. The interview with the exec I said hinted that Jackson might be so involved during preproduction that he won't want to let someone else direct it. I think he was joking but, Jackson has spent like a decade working on LOTR, he's bought a ridiculous amount of the props, costumes, even set designs. I read that he has a Hobbit hole on his property.
Despite the fact that principal photography is a year away, preproduction has begun, and by the end of the year will be in full swing I think. My biggest concern as the moment is whether or not Alan Lee and John Howe are involved.
I'll keep you updated.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Despite the fact that principal photography is a year away, preproduction has begun, and by the end of the year will be in full swing I think. My biggest concern as the moment is whether or not Alan Lee and John Howe are involved.
Oh they'd better be! They're concepts and ideas practically made the LOTR movies. They will be, with Jackson at the helm I'm sure of it. Unless one or both of them has gotten tired of Middle Earth... Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
They've been drawing Middle Eart their entire lives. I don't think they'd give up now, not with the chance to conceptualize Erebor, Smaug, Beorn, the Spiders, the Mirkwood, etc.
I'm really wondering how they'll portray the Elves in Mirkwood. These are different elves from the ones we're used to seeing. Imladris and Lorien were full of a combination of Sindarin and Noldorin Elves, which either saw the light of Aman or at least came over the Misty Mountains into Beleriand. But the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood never went on the march, never saw the light, never learned from the more knowledgable elves. They're described as less trusting, quicker to anger, basically closer to Dark Elves or humans in many ways. They aren't the elves we're used to. Legolas is different, mostly because I believe he has Vanyar heritage, but even with him I think we saw that his raiment and what not weren't quite as grand as everything else we saw of the Elves, and he was royalty. I love Elves, but I also love accuracy.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I can't remember which, but either Howe or Lee is reported as being signed on to the project.
It's also being reported that the script will be written by Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens, under the direction of PJ and GDT.
There will be a Q&A on TOR this weekend with GDT and PJ. I'd love to be a part of it but I have to work all weekend. I'd love to ask them a half dozen different questions, but I think we'll get some of the big questions out of the way this weekend. Should be interesting!
Contact has already been made with Viggo, Ian McKellen and Andy Serkis about reprising their roles for these two movies. An exec at MGM has also been quoted as saying that Hobbit and Sequel are slated for December '11 and '12. And they are also talking about FURTHER sequels, and she was excited about the prospects of a franchise to take place during the huge gap between The Hobbit and Fellowship.
Which is a HORRIBLE idea. If they were to tackle anything next, it should be the Silmarillion. As a side note, two of my friends over this past Winter, one in Scotland and one in Ireland, got me a first edition hardcover copy of The Silmarillion, both of which I love dearly. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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They are filming a Del Toro producede film in the village where my wife works. I have a network of people with my cell phone number in case Guillermo arrives on set so that I can drop everything and pester him mercilessly into being in the film(s).
After recent dietary excesses I'm shooting for Bombur...
I'll let you know how I get on...
Posts: 892 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Reprising Aragorn? So they're doing all the behind the scenes stuff with the storming of Dol Guldur and the like? Cool!
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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The Hobbit VI: Aliens VS Sauron The Hobbit VII: Dwarves in Boats (We don't jump the shark, we toss them over it.) The Hobbit VIII: A very special episode--Young Frodo and Wizard's Wand.
Lord of the Rings VII: The Black Fleet of the Caribbean Lord of the Rings VIII: Ents in Love Lord of the Rings IX: Legolas Saves Christmas
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I actually don't remember there being THAT much in the Silmarillion about what happens during that time period. I think they'll have to look at half dozen different books like the Lost Tales or Unfinished Tales to really get the info they want.
And I don't know how I feel about Ian Holm narrating. I prefer Cate Blanchett.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Doug Jones has been unofficially confirmed by GDT for a role in The Hobbit. He's said the role will be very difficult and involve long hours in heavy makeup. Any guesses?
On concerns that the creatures in The Hobbit will look like Pan's Labyrinth creatures, and for that matter strikingly similar creatures in HBII, he had this to say:
quote:"Yeah, but remember one thing. The terrain that is covered by the trilogy is a very defined area. The Hobbit goes different places, goes different things. To give you an example, Shelob is a spider but the spiders of Mirkwood are completely different. So I plan to bring myself to The Hobbit, no doubt about that."
One of those lovely non answer answers that sort of spooks me a little bit, but we'll see.
quote:Del Toro went on to say that the film will not necessarily be similar in style to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, nor will it be like any of his own dark fantasy films, such as Hellboy and Pan's Labyrinth.
"I'm not trying to honor either my style or what I'm gravitating normally towards," del Toro said. "I know that for a fact I gravitated towards the novel. So there's something there that echoes with me very strongly, which is not the case with most fantasy, in my case."
James McAvoy is rumored to play Bilbo, but both he and GDT have denied this. The role has not yet been cast so far as I can tell, and JM wants to take some time off from acting, though he says he'd consider it if the script was right.
GDT has also said that when The Hobbit II (which he has literally stated will NOT be named "The Hobbit 2: Electric Boogaloo") is completed, he'd like to start work on Hellboy III.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I'm more curious in some ways if they'll try to re-do Hobbiton in the same location they did last time. That was a peculiar confluence of good fortune (including getting the New Zealand military to secure airspace so they could keep the shooting a secret!...) that is not likely to happen twice.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
After having recently seen The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and Kill Bill 2 recently, I have become more fully convinced that Michael Madsen should be the voice of Smaug. Just imagine "Well, thief. I smell you and I feel your air" in that voice.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Awww... I guess Ian Holm is too old to reprise his role as Bilbo. That would have been too perfect anyway. Oh well... He was an awesome Bilbo, honestly I have trouble imagining anyone else doing it.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dag - Is Michael Madson the guy who played Bill? If so, I agree that'd be a good choice.
Holm is expected to be involved in some way Alcon, but not as Bilbo.
pg - Last time I looked at IMDB, he was listed as Bilbo (rumored). Considering there is no script and preproduction doesn't even begin until the end of next month, I tend to side with those who think it really is just a rumor. Very few roles have already been cast.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Dag - Is Michael Madson the guy who played Bill? If so, I agree that'd be a good choice.
No, he played Bud, Bill's brother. He played the chief wolf in TLtWatW.
David Carridene played Bill, and he wouldn't be a bad choice, either. Tarrentino seems to cast actors with good voices.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Originally posted by JonHecht: "Edit: I still don't understand how PJ went from doing horribly cheesy low quality Australian horror flicks to LOTR."
That would be NEW ZEALAND horror flicks, thanks very much. Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
If I were to write movies based on the Silmarilion, I'd begin with a flashback to the separation of the elves, touch briefly on what happened in Valinor, but then start the story from the point of view of the Sindarin just as the Noldor return. Then slowly start revealing what the sons of Feanor did while in Valinor, putting the conflict with Morgoth as a backdrop for the conflicts the elves have with each other.
Edit: I feel a little silly. I didn't even realize there was a second page to the thread, and I didn't even look at the dates on the earlier posts. Whoops.
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