quote:Didn't start with him, won't end with him, but he's been the guy most famous for promoting that kind of politics recently.
I don't grant your premise.
He's the one that's been most successfully turned into a bogeyman about it, but we had Move On resurrecting that ad in 2002 or 03, and we had absolutely ludicrous scare tactics about the draft being reinstated.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I didn't say he was the only one. I just said he was the most famous, and what you've said doesn't dispute that, you're just putting more people into the club, unless you're arguing that the average person thinks MoveOn plays most negative politics than Rove. You haven't presented that argument specifically though.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:I didn't say he was the only one. I just said he was the most famous
And I disagree, unless you're talking about a specific subset of the general population.
Moreover, your original statement was that she took a page from his playbook. That's not about fame.
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I think he is the most well known for that reason at the moment. And I do think that the type of politics that she is playing right now is the type that Rove is famous for.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
So about McCain and Clinton's proposed gas tax holiday:
quote: Economists Release Letter Opposing Clinton Gas Tax Plan By Jonathan Weisman Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she'll have no truck with economists telling her where to put her gas-tax holiday.
Well, now she's got a truckload of them.
More than 230 economists -- Democrats, Republicans, advisers to past presidents and four Nobel laureates -- signed a letter today opposing proposals by Clinton and presumptive Republican presidential nominee John McCain to suspend the 18-cent federal gas tax for the summer driving season.
"First, research shows that waiving the gas tax would generate major profits for oil companies rather than significantly lowering prices for consumers," they wrote. "Second, it would encourage people to keep buying costly imported oil and do nothing to encourage conservation. Third, a tax holiday would provide very little relief to families feeling squeezed."
Signatories include four Nobel laureates: Joseph Stiglitz (a Clinton White House adviser), James Heckman, Daniel Kahneman and Roger Myerson. Also signing were: President-elect of the American Economic Association Angus Deaton; former AEA presidents Charles Schultze, Alice Rivlin and Peter Diamond; former Reagan administration economist Clyde Prestowitz and former Clinton economic adviser Jeffrey Frankel. Indeed, former president Bill Clinton's administration is well-represented on the list, with the signatures of Jeffrey Liebman of Harvard University, Rebecca Blank of the University of Michigan and J. Bradford DeLong of the University of California, Berkeley.
Others are household names within the smaller household of the economics profession: John Shoven and Lawrence Goulder from Stanford, Alan Auerbach from Berkeley, David Cutler from Harvard, James Galbraith from the University of Texas and Frank Levy from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
posted
Sounds an awful lot like the jokes Colbert likes to tell about Bush. "I don't listen to facts, I listen to my heart, and my heart tells me that a gas tax holiday would be good."
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Clinton's great experience that she is ready to grace us with on day 1 has not led her to a very intelligent analysis of the oil market.
quote: Clinton: OPEC 'can no longer be a cartel' Clinton's attacks on oil prices as artificially inflated, Enron-style, keep escalating, and today she appeared to threaten to break up the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.
"We’re going to go right at OPEC," she said. "They can no longer be a cartel, a monopoly that get together once every couple of months in some conference room in some plush place in the world, they decide how much oil they’re going to produce and what price they’re going to put it at," she told a crowd at a firehouse in Merrillville, IN.
"That’s not a market. That’s a monopoly," she said, saying she'd use anti-trust law and the World Trade Organization to take on OPEC.
Juan Cole: Clinton's Iran Comments "Monstrous" (What Juan Cole doesn't say is that Hillary's Iran comments are her public oath of fealty to Israel, following in the footsteps of Bush's statements that the Unites States will attack Iran if it engages in a war with Israel, no matter which side shoots first.)
Also, I can't find the link right now, but the ratings for Obama's and Clinton's Sunday talk show appearances show Obama with 6 times the viewers Clinton got.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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There was a bomb threat against an Obama campaign office in Indiana, forcing suspension of get-out-the-vote calls while police swept the facility:
quote:Indiana State Police swept Democrat presidential candidate Barack Obama's Terre Haute campaign headquarters on Wabash Avenue this afternoon following an alleged call to a WTHI Channel 10 reporter claiming to have placed a bomb there and at six other Indiana locations.
Campaign workers were allowed back inside to continue their voter calling once police determined it was safe.
Also, "Hardcore" republican precincts are heavily voting in the Democratic primary in Indiana...
So, no real results yet.. but some interesting things to think about.
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And I haven't missed your questions, Dagonee and Lyrhawn. Been in one of them non-writing moods recently. Answers forthcoming probably by tomorrow morning.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Didn't start with him, won't end with him, but he's been the guy most famous for promoting that kind of politics recently.
I don't grant your premise.
He's the one that's been most successfully turned into a bogeyman about it, but ...
Which would kinda make him the most famous for it, yes? Deserved or undeserved, when that topic comes up so does his name. That makes him famous for it, or possibly infamous.
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posted
Obama is gaining steadily as the returns come in, though I would be surprised if he actually won Indiana. But I bet Hillary does worse than her unopposed run in Michigan.
Obama will win NC, which is the bigger state in terms of delegates.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I didn't characterize any sort of fame at all, nor did I suggest that it was justified, only that the fame existed. It does.
"Machiavellian" used to be the name invoked for those sorts of "whatever it takes" policies, not entirely accurately since Machiavelli suggested several different methods to achieve a result.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:I didn't characterize any sort of fame at all
But you asked (and seemed to say that you thought the answer yes) whether "he's the one that's been most successfully turned into a bogeyman about it" means that "[he is] the most famous for it." (emphasis added)
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
BTW, MoveOn is mentioned when this kind of ad comes up more often than Rove amongst a large portion of the electorate.
A large portion of that portion thinks that the demonization of Rove demonstrates raving hypocrisy by many (those who regularly engage in the same tactics) of the politicians and activists who do it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Whoa, Obama crushed Clinton in NC. And the counties bordering Chicago have yet to be counted in IN.
People who favor McCain in November voted more for Obama in IN, and a sizeable proportion (43%) in NC. Hmm.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:And Rove is mentioned more than MoveOn in another large portion of the electorate. Still not sure how this makes him less famous.
I didn't say Rove wasn't famous for it. I didn't say he was less famous for it than moveon.org. If that's your only point, then we don't disagree.
If your point is that Rove is more famous than MoveOn for this (or than any of the other masters at it, including Clinton and others) then I doubt we'll agree. More importantly, I doubt either of us can provide anything more meaningful than recounting our impressions on the matter.
That doesn't mean I'm not going to post my opinion about someone attributing a tactic as being from Rove's playbook when the person using that tactic has been doing so nationally since 1992.
If you have another point besides "Rove is famous for this," I can't tell what it is. Please elaborate. Since you haven't clarified your "characterization" comment, I still don't know what your objection is to my take on this.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Ah. My impression was that you were responding to "he's famous for it" with "no, he isn't, and besides MoveOn does it too." Especially since Lryhawn made a point of stressing that Rove was not the only practioner, but that was all you seemed to respond to. If I misunderstood, it was my mistake.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Security and opportunity, prosperity and compassion are not liberal values or conservative values, they are American values.
That's pretty good.
The commentary is pretty dumb, they accuse him once again of not having a lot of substance, be he was putting details there in the middle, and it just confused the crowd. I don't know if he consciously shifted away from details, but he listed multiple points about energy and military policy (which I didn't necessarily agree with).
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
He's still 4 points behind in Indiana, but Lake County has not come through yet and word is he's heavily favored there. No clue if it'll tip anything.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
He's only 40,000 votes down in Indiana, and Lake county is a suburb of Chicago... Which means high population and it's very heavily tilted toward Obama. He may yet win Indiana.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Wow, even if things stay roughly as they are right now Obama just gained in the popular vote tally by 160,000 votes. He definitely gained in the delegate count too. I don't see how she'll spin this as a win at all.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:I;d be amazed if he won Indiana. But I expect him to close the gap a bit more.
I would be too, but look at CNN's map. He could pull it off. Lake hasn't reported at all yet, and if it's results are anything like Indianapolis's he'll do it. There are only three other counties that aren't all in: two neighboring Lake, which are 70% in and which it's mostly very close, and Bloomington which is more Obama territory. He's got a shot.
Lake's gonna start reporting around midnight.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Cnn's now reporting a 20,000 vote gap and Lake still not reporting (I have no idea where those votes came from, since near as I can tell nothing's really changed on the county map...)
Ahh, okay, they came from Lake County, they just hadn't updated the map yet. It's starting to report. Here we go...
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't think Indiana is going to go to Obama, but I think he's done much better in both races than any of the polls suggested. A loss of 2% or less in Indiana is hardly a cause for shame.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I don't think Indiana is going to go to Obama, but I think he's done much better in both races than any of the polls suggested. A loss of 2% or less in Indiana is hardly a cause for shame.
Lake county is 28% percent reporting, with 28,000 votes for Obama and only 10,000 for Clinton. That's 75% Obama, 25% Clinton. If those numbers even close to hold, he'll win Indiana. He's only 20,000 votes down right now.
posted
Unfortunately, they probably won't hold. The 28% currently reporting is all from Gary. There's about 50% of Gary left to report, plus the rest of the county, which is much more Republican, and ergo likely to swing the percentages back in Clinton's direction (although they certainly won't give her the lead).
That being said, this has been a great night for Obama. No matter how Hillary spins it (and oh, how she has tried- already!), he outperformed the polling in both states by significant margins. Based on what I've read, the expectations were roughly a 5-10% win for Clinton in Indiana, and a 5-10% win for Obama in North Carolina. He's whittled Indiana down to 2% (at most), and the Tarheels preferred him by a 14% margin.
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quote:I don't think Indiana is going to go to Obama, but I think he's done much better in both races than any of the polls suggested. A loss of 2% or less in Indiana is hardly a cause for shame.
Lake county is 28% percent reporting, with 28,000 votes for Obama and only 10,000 for Clinton. That's 75% Obama, 25% Clinton. If those numbers even close to hold, he'll win Indiana. He's only 20,000 votes down right now.
Come on Indiana!!
What an amazing comeback Obama's had tonight in Indiana(yeah, not quite fair calling it comeback when it mostly has to do with the order the vote tally came in). A huge victory in North Carolina, and a super close race in Indiana, this is really fantastic for Obama. And if Lake county can continue the kind of percentages Obama is currently getting it could very well put him over the edge there too. A double win would be huge.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Lake county is still reporting on 56% of the vote and Obama is taking 65% of the vote there. All the other Clinton counties have 100% of the votes counted and the other Obama counties are 98-99% counted so Lake the county vote will decide the race.
Right now Obama is down 16,609 votes in the total county. If the remaining precincts in Lake county go 65% for Obama that will give him an additional 17,000 vote margin over Clinton. At this point it truly is neck and neck in Indiana.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
With 56% of Lake county in, Obama is up 20,000 votes on her there, and he's down 17,000 votes in the state overall. So, if the other 44% comes in at the same ratio as the first 56 then, it could be a narrow victory or a narrow loss.
Listening to Wolf Blitzer attack the mayor of Gary is pretty sad.
I think he'll lose by 20,000, she'll claim a huge victory even though she's been ahead in the polls for weeks by a huge margin in some cases, and this'll go for another month. Ridiculous.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Lake county just had a big jump and it narrowed the gap. Obama is down 22,000 now.
Almost all the counties (with one exception) that haven't totally finished counting are Obama counties with big margins of victory for him, and there ARE still absentee ballots to count. But, I think it could be as narrow as a 10,000 vote victory, but Clinton will win.
The sad thing is how she'll spin it as some huge victory when really it was sort of a defeat. Indiana was a wash. His victory in North Carolina was crushing and pushes him way ahead of her.
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posted
>The sad thing is how she'll spin it as some huge >victory when really it was sort of a defeat. >Indiana was a wash. His victory in North Carolina >was crushing and pushes him way ahead of her.
Sounds like Texas. Every win's bigger in Texas.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I bet even if, like in Texas, it's discovered later that she didn't even win (in Texas it was the hybrid vote, in Indiana it could be the absentee ballots), it won't matter.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Ah. My impression was that you were responding to "he's famous for it" with "no, he isn't, and besides MoveOn does it too."
The statement wasn't "he's famous for it." It was "he's most famous for it." MoveOn's fame for it is directly relevant to that.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
A lot of people are saying they want their primary to count for a change -- well, they are going to have to make donations if they want the Clinton train to keep rolling.
Though I have to question people who want the democratic race to continue at the cost of Obama being able to start his general campaign. Sure it's exciting to vote in a primary "that matters", but it's important for the party to unite behind the strongest candidate.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think the excitement people have about their vote counting toward the nominee should be a really important take-away for the parties this year. I read a proposal (here? elsewhere? dunno.) to split the states into 5 groups and the primary season into 5 timeframes, and then rotate which states have their primary within each timeframe each election. I think something like that would be a good idea. . . let us take turns.
Of course, naysayers will say that people won't remember when their primary is, that way. I don't really think most of us do without media coverage, anyway, so no biggie. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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