posted
How are you not seeing all the damage and fallout? It's everywhere that drugs are used. Could it be you've separated cause from effect in your mind somehow? Sort of the way we don't quit eating after widespread food poisoning issues because after all we have to eat?
But drugs we don't have to do at all. We pay an enormous human cost for them, and what is the return? So far as I can see it's nothing at all. It's "wow, man, what a trip! hehehehe". It's "hey, y'all, watch this! Wooooooohooooooo let's paaaaarty!" That's our big payoff to weigh against the terrible toll in damaged and wasted life.
How intelligent is that?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: I don't see that Tatiana's anecdotes are less valuable than the many positive anecdotes about drug use that have marched through this thread.
The positive anecdotes in this thread have been largely about being okay despite drug use; no link between the drug and the behavior needs to be demonstrated in order for the statement "I've done/do drugs and am doing well anyway" to be true. Tatiana's anecdotes are all about people who have done drugs and also screwed up their lives somehow; in order to support her conclusion that drugs lead to people who are "lower middle class or lower class who has a blue collar job, or minimum wage job, and will never advance," etc., she needs to demonstrate that the drugs are to blame. She hasn't. She's shown that there's an anecdotal correlation between doing drugs and screwing up your life.
To repeat what JT said:
quote:remember the hatrack debate thread motto: Correlation does not equal causation.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I don't see all these successful, happy drug users, either. I see lots of bleak lives limited and cut short. Or like that one guy who was successful and happy as a cocaine using executive in his late 20s and dead of an overdose in his early 30s.
How many people living successful, happy lives who use drugs would it take to convince you?
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: How are you not seeing all the damage and fallout? It's everywhere that drugs are used. Could it be you've separated cause from effect in your mind somehow?
Could it be that you're not able to separate cause and correlation? You're using extremely tenuous logic and faulty assumptions to get to the 'damage and fallout', IMO. You're starting from your conclusion (Drugs are bad!) and working backwards from there to shoehorn in your anecdotal 'evidence'.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: But drugs we don't have to do at all. We pay an enormous human cost for them, and what is the return? So far as I can see it's nothing at all. It's "wow, man, what a trip! hehehehe". It's "hey, y'all, watch this! Wooooooohooooooo let's paaaaarty!" That's our big payoff to weigh against the terrible toll in damaged and wasted life.
There's not much in life that we have to do, beyond bodily functions. Things that people routinely do that aren't good for them: overeat, eat poorly, drive too fast, watch too much TV, talk on a cellphone while driving, don't exercise, and spend hours on the internet arguing with people who won't listen to reason. Just to name a few.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Drugs are for people who aren't very intelligent. They're for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains.
As someone who's used alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana over the years, I'd like to say that I find this sheltered, alarmist, short-sighted, misinformed view offensive. It's not for you to judge what people choose to do in their free time.
And I'd put my intelligence and that of a handful of my friends who still smoke pot up against anybody's.
Just imagine that if I came into a thread and said, "Religion is for people who aren't very intelligent. It's for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains."
You would be insulted, and rightfully so.
Now, just so no one has to go back a reread my earlier posts, I'll reiterate that I don't do any illegal drugs anymore. I'll also state that I do believe some illegal drugs can be a destructive influence on society. But not the drugs we're talking about here.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't agree that social drug use is equivalent to religion. Religion at least purports to encompass one's way of life. The drug culture on the one hand says it's no big deal, but wants the same consideration as a major lifestyle choice.
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posted
I never equated the two. You can put any word in ak's statement and it's offensive to those in that group. That's the point I was making.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Quick point, I'm actually marginally on the anti-drug side here (that is, while I am undecided on the issue of legalizing marijuana or similar drugs, I am against using them personally)
JT/Tatiana: However, if you combine the last quote with this one, I would find the implications even more eyebrow raising.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think drugs are terrible. And yes I agree that alcohol is just as bad.
As a quick estimate, I would think that the number of people in this thread that drink alcohol would be at least comparable or greater than the number that are religious. However, these "people aren't very intelligent" and may freely be labelled "screw-ups and losers"? C'mon, "just as bad", exaggerate much?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Seriously, I'm very surprised there are so few antis on this thread.
I think perhaps there are "anti's" here that you aren't seeing. Such as, in my previous post, I did not take a clear FOR or AGAINST stance. I simply stated something I noticed from my younger, more foolish, years.
I'm current anti-use, but mainly because I don't think drugs or alcohol add anything to a happy, productive life. They simply aren't essential for living; and as you said later, smart people usually avoid mind-altering things.
But I'm also not pointing fingers because I went through that stage when I was a user; and I also probably currently have a very strong addiction to coffee, and sugar, so who am I to criticize the drug uses of others?
However, the illegal aspect of drug use is still a huge factor in my mind. If coffee ever became illegal, I would quit in a heartbeat. I simply don't want to cross that line.
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Drugs are for people who aren't very intelligent. They're for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains.
I find this pretty insulting, Tatiana. Maybe you have had some bad personal experiences regarding drugs, but that hardly gives you the right to make judgments on my intelligence based on your opinions. I'm not a stupid person. I'm not the smartest person in the world, and I don't always make the best choices, but my decision to smoke marijuana is MY choice, and I don't think I am any less intelligent than you for doing so. My boyfriend is 32, smokes pot every day, holds a steady job (and has for 13 years), makes a VERY decent amount of money, and basically has a great life. His bosses are aware of his drug use and they know that he is a responsible user who has never once come into work stoned or unable to function, and so they're ok with it. My stepfather is a professor at a large university, has written several books, and is well-recognized as an expert in his field. He also smokes marijuana. There's no way I could take seriously anyone who calls him "not very intelligent" or "a loser and screw-up". Drugs are everywhere, and so are the people who use them. And guess what - most of them live normal lives, are intelligent people, and do not let the drugs influence their lives to the point of destruction. I am certainly not advocating drug use - there are many, many drugs that I would not touch because, to me, the risk and danger outweigh the benefits. I'm just tired of all drug users being lumped into one stereotypical group of slackers and idiots.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I always like to bring up that any mood-changing chemical is a "drug", from THC to adrenaline. Caffeine is DEFINITELY a mind-altering drug, one that I choose not to use because it's so addictive. At least marijuana isn't addictive.
norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin--all mood-altering drugs. Not only for people who aren't very intelligent.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Actually, BannaOj, Tres's stance in this thread is consistent with his stance in the alcohol thread. Guess Tres is just really opposed to anything that gets you high.
In a sense, yes.
My position here is actually also directly connected to this thread about what makes a well-lived life. I have said many times in the past that I believe human beings are fundamentally good, and I believe the human spirit is a truly great thing that adds meaning to the world. Accordingly, I think a person who is living life to the fullest is approaching this world with great enthusiasm, with a passion to do great things. In contrast, I think someone who merely seeks contentment in life (and by that I mean the absense of pain or difficulty, as opposed to joy or deeper happiness) and thus takes the easiest path to its end is not living life to the fullest. I do not like the idea of coasting through life, or sleeping through it, or going through life in a daze; I think human beings are greater than that.
That relates to this thread, and the thread on alcohol, because I think alcohol and drugs conflict with the above directly. From what I've seen, drug use or excessive alcohol use in the long run pushes people away from greatness. Often they will say the drug makes them more aware or helps them think more clearly, but always it is dependent on the drug; implicit in their claim is the growing notion that they are dependent on whatever drug it is to be in whatever state they feel they should be in. On top of that, the legal problems, the health problems, and the financial difficulty of paying for their addiction pile on to make it more difficult for them to be the sort of person they are capable of being. You may disagree from your experience, but from what I've seen the net effect seems to be a dampening of the human spirit in the long run. The effect is far greater on those that severely abuse the stuff, and only slight for those who do it in moderation, but it still seems to be there - if their intention is to alter their mental state with it, at least.
Going back to the original quote, I think feeling "high" in the sense that one is elated, or joyful, or extremely happy is an ideal state for us. But I think that experience needs to come from the way we live and approach our lives, not from a temporary chemical fix. I think doing it artificially is, to a large degree, missing the point of life.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I'm fairly certain he meant that THC does not have addictive properties, which is well-covered ground in this thread.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Actually, BannaOj, Tres's stance in this thread is consistent with his stance in the alcohol thread. Guess Tres is just really opposed to anything that gets you high.
In a sense, yes....
Going back to the original quote, I think feeling "high" in the sense that one is elated, or joyful, or extremely happy is an ideal state for us. But I think that experience needs to come from the way we live and approach our lives, not from a temporary chemical fix. I think doing it artificially is, to a large degree, missing the point of life.
This may be one of the first times I have adamantly agreed with Tres on something. Very well said, Tres.
The majority of my friends that regularly used marijuana were addicted to it. They may not have had a physical addiction to the substance, but they were definitely addicted to *using.* The ones that have quit will readily admit this fact.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Your current statement makes more rational sense (to me)than the one I criticized earlier in the thread.
To be clear on my own stance I definitely separate pot from "the rest" of the pile of illegal drugs.
I'm curious as to what you think about legal "brain drugs" such as Ritalin or antidepressants and other mood stabilizers. Please assume (for the purposes of my question) that these are correctly prescribed by a physican and not being abused. Do you oppose them also, because people may be dependent on them in order to think more clearly?
Do not take them personally and do not plan to. Do not want to date anyone who does. Do not care who else does as long as they are not anyone I need to trust while they are under the influence (i.e. the driver).
I think people can do whatever they want in their own homes, up to and including smoking their brains out.
So, posession doesn't need to be illegal.
However, the moment someone does something that affects other people while under the influence of drugs or alchohol, I think that should get the maximum fine possible. Want to get high/drink with friends and take a cab home? Knock yourself out.
Want to do the same and drive home? Go to prison for ten years.
Want to do it and beat your kids? Ditto. Or more.
Want to do it and practice medicine/balance (my) books/drive a forklift/watch over the launch codes? Lose your license or job when appropriate. That isn't okay.
I'd like to see the disincentives for doing anything other than hang out in someone's home while engaging in drugs or alchohol be strong enough that everyone would do their private business in places and circumstances where they can't hurt anyone but themselves.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: However, the moment someone does something that affects other people while under the influence of drugs or alchohol, I think that should get the maximum fine possible. Want to get high/drink with friends and take a cab home? Knock yourself out.
Want to do the same and drive home? Go to prison for ten years.
Want to do it and beat your kids? Ditto. Or more.
Want to do it and practice medicine/balance (my) books/drive a forklift/watch over the launch codes? Lose your license or job when appropriate. That isn't okay.
I'd like to see the disincentives for doing anything other than hang out in someone's home while engaging in drugs or alchohol be strong enough that everyone would do their private business in places and circumstances where they can't hurt anyone but themselves.
Quibbles about details aside, I largely agree with this.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:That relates to this thread, and the thread on alcohol, because I think alcohol and drugs conflict with the above directly.
Well, hey. They don't, really. They just can. So can television or video games or excessive book reading.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Here's my own view, on my personal choices about drugs:
Within my mind I create worlds upon worlds, stories, characters, viewpoints, arguements, thought exercises and ideas.
I have an infinity of worlds in different guises, a vast cornucopia of plots and adventures, all going on concurrently. Characters struggling and heroes battling. Truly, the number is without limit, and I doubt ever will be limited, as long as I live. There's always a new story on the horizon of my mind, regardless of how deep I search.
Furthermore, ideas, feelings, memories and plans all swirl around just as prominantly, with things I've learned, philosophy I'm thinking of, ideas I'm trying to know and understand. My own mind, the most interesting place to explore, where even now I still learn new things, about myself, and the aspects that make up this strange multitude which I call "I".
Questions and puzzles and riddles and paradoxes and games.
And even more. If I wish to feel a feeling, all I have to do is think the right thoughts. All I have to do is will myself to feel them.
With all these worlds and questions arrayed before me, of what use is a drug to artificially alter my mindset? Of what use are hallucinations, when I create stories? Of what use is an emotional high, when my mere thoughts can create plenty exciting moods of my own accord? With my lucidity in hand, I have enough to keep my busy for an eternity.
Why bother, even knowing how intense the potential highs could go? My mind has too many joys already; such a thing will only distract me from it.
(Also, my dad was a druggie, and worse, an alcoholic. Don't think for a second that the negative effects of that on my and my mother's life is not an undercurrent in the reason I avoid things like drugs and gambling. I don't feel some moral outrage at them. Just a mild distaste. Not fun. And I know, at least in part, where this lack of fun comes from.)
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Weird that this should just come up. It's sorta emblematic of the whole attitude the old power brokers have on the nature of marijuana.
quote:A Spanish medical team’s study released in Madrid in February 2000 has shown that tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active chemical in marijuana, destroys tumors in lab rats. These findings, however, are not news to the U.S. government. A study in Virginia in 1974 yielded similar results but was suppressed by the DEA, and in 1983 the Reagan/Bush administration tried to persuade U.S. universities and researchers to destroy all cannabis research work done between 1966 and 1976, including compendiums in libraries.
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Weird that this should just come up. It's sorta emblematic of the whole attitude the old power brokers have on the nature of marijuana.
quote:A Spanish medical team’s study released in Madrid in February 2000 has shown that tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active chemical in marijuana, destroys tumors in lab rats. These findings, however, are not news to the U.S. government. A study in Virginia in 1974 yielded similar results but was suppressed by the DEA, and in 1983 the Reagan/Bush administration tried to persuade U.S. universities and researchers to destroy all cannabis research work done between 1966 and 1976, including compendiums in libraries.
And this is why I don't like the current US attitude regarding pot. The only way to get funding on pot research is to be anti- even though it is pretty clear that there are some exciting possibilities out there.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I was asking myself "Why was marijuana made illegal in the first place?" and I found this page. I knew there was something fishy about it, and it makes sense now.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I feel like there was a study at some point implying some positive consequences for young people who had used drugs- something about social success or something of the sort. But that was years ago, my memory is vague, and I'm not having any luck finding anything on Google.
I did find this:(study) which, oddly, seems to imply a positive effect on employment/wages over the short term for "soft" drug use.
My own feeling- noting that I haven't smoked marijuana or used other illicit drugs, and rarely consume, let alone over-indulge, in alcohol- is that I wouldn't care that much if a friend occasionally drinks or smokes marijuana, so long as it doesn't endanger them and they don't insist on doing so around me.
If they're a worthwhile person, they're still a worthwhile person if they occasionally smoke pot and drink.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Personally I class smoking marijuana and whiskey in the same way - I like a dram now and again, but not every night, and I certainly don't do a bottle in a sitting.
With reference to your friend Starsnuffer, I shouldn't worry too much.
Posts: 892 | Registered: Oct 2006
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