posted
Let me be clearer: the only person who will care about your actual decision is you. We don't really care what you think about yourself; we care what we think of you, and that will not be affected (in the way you'd expect, at least) by your assertion that we should or should not think of you in some specific way. In other words, if any people here think you are rude, it won't matter to them if you conclude that their belief is justified or unjustified; the only person to whom that might matter is you.
It'd be like posting a thread that says, in its entirety, "Hey, fellas, look! I have a pimple!" There's no harm in it, but you've already demonstrated that you're the kind of person who gets frustrated if no one takes that information and runs with it -- which means that you'll then be expecting people to weigh in with their own thoughts about your pimple, recommendations for its repair, and/or pimple stories of their own, and will be disappointed if this doesn't happen. It creates obligation where no obligation need exist.
To put it another way: no one really cares whether you're a 12-year-old girl, or a 45-year-old trucker from Zimbabwe, except insofar as these things inform what you write. What you write here is who you are, except once you move beyond the forum itself to meet some of the individuals here in MeatSpace (as many of us have done). Don't agonize over whether to reveal personal details to us; if you have to agonize over it, that's a sign that you probably shouldn't.
We know you only from what you write. So far, what you write has largely boiled down to "I have lots of thoughts about myself. I will tell you those thoughts. What do you think of me, given only what I think of myself?" I have every reason to believe that this will change, and look forward to knowing you better.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I'm going to chime in to agree with Tom, since I'm the one who first brought up the "personal details" issue in this thread. You don't have to reveal any personal details in order to participate fully in the community. What you do need to do is quit making such a big deal about the fact that you aren't revealing them. It's like you're jumping up and down saying "I have a secret! I have a secret! Don't ask about my secret -- it shouldn't matter to you."
It really doesn't matter -- except as much as you make it matter. And you are focusing on it a lot more than anyone else here.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Let me be clearer: the only person who will care about your actual decision is you. We don't really care what you think about yourself; we care what we think of you, and that will not be affected (in the way you'd expect, at least) by your assertion that we should or should not think of you in some specific way. In other words, if any people here think you are rude, it won't matter to them if you conclude that their belief is justified or unjustified; the only person to whom that might matter is you.
Ok, I need to clarify this point myself: I already agreed that it is possible to come off as rude to some people here. For that, in this thread I ask for your help to avoid that in the future. The suggestions that I received are valuable to me and I thank you all for them.
I don’t expect you to change your opinion of me if I don’t (or can’t) change anything about myself (as seen on Hatrack).
And so we get to the second point, about the personal information. I have never associated that with the rudeness (I still don’t), but I appreciate that it came out in this thread nonetheless. Because it also affects the way you see me, and I might get to the conclusion (in a rational manner) that I can change that for the “better” in the future.
Of course, if it really doesn’t mater for you (royal you), then I’ll drop the subject and go on as I have for over two years already. Take the reaction to my nationality when it came out: zero fuss. I have never expected anything else, but then I don’t get what’s all the fuss about having a “truncated” personality vis-à-vis Hatrack, given that I don’t have the luck to be Real (Hatrack-wise) and don’t expect to have that chance in the near future. That point I touched in my first landmark and I thought it would have been the end of it. It wasn’t, because you (royal you) made a fuss about it every time it came up. If you really don’t care, then what’s wrong with my answer: “I don’t think this information is, or should be, relevant on this board (for an unReal member)”?
I totally understand the “community” feeling and the value it has on Hatrack, I appreciate it too, but if in order to be accepted I have to give out personal information that I don’t think is relevant, and you don’t think is relevant either, then what? I might decide with great sorrow that I can’t accept that. It is a paradox but my middle name, if I had one, should be “paradox” as in Anon Paradox Imus.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: We know you only from what you write.
That’s exactly my point and I think it should remain safely so until I have the opportunity to become Real. What do you think?
I see the image you in particular and other Hatraqueros in general have of me is quite close to my real one, and the evaluation that I have from someone who knows me exclusively from what I write I value a lot more than from any person who, with only seeing me, has formed an “idea” based on size, gender, skin colour and the like. Is that so absurd?
So the simple question is this: Is personal information a pre-requisite for being an enjoyable poster for you, or not? If not, we drop it now and that’s it. If yes, then I have to resolve the paradox.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: So far, what you write has largely boiled down to "I have lots of thoughts about myself. I will tell you those thoughts. What do you think of me, given only what I think of myself?" I have every reason to believe that this will change, and look forward to knowing you better.
Thank you for the vote of confidence. Coming from you in particular means a lot to me.
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: However, over analyzing it here in post after post is not always profitable, sometimes it actually makes you feel worse about yourself.
Rest assured, I am glad I had the gut to start this thread. I’ve learned more things that I value, here, than in the two landmarks threads that I started until now. I enjoy talking as directly and sincerely with you (royal you) as my unRealness allows me to.
quote: So the simple question is this: Is personal information a pre-requisite for being an enjoyable poster for you, or not?
I don't care one way or the other. Since I don't have a handy reference spreadsheet, I just mix folks up anyway. I remember what Chris does for a living, what industry Kwea's wife works in, and what city Icarus lives in. That's about it.
When I was first lurking, there was one particular poster that used to get under my skin. I always felt he was dismissing the women with comments about their appearance and never valuing their opinions. So I picked an androgynous screen name, stuck to the facts, and tried to keep gender from coming up. I didn't want a pat on the head, I wanted to be heard.
After he'd become a semi-regular and I'd started to feel more comfortable here, I realized it was more affection than condescension. He knew these women well enough to rib them a little. And I started to realize I was a little jealous of that kind of rapport. I have plenty of people here I like to chat with, but I don't really have any friends. I figure if I keep on doing my thing and loosening up, I'll have some by about 2015 or so.
Some of us just take life at our own pace. There's nothing wrong with that.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
To address something briefly from the last page. I post in caps from time to time to emphasize certain words, and I'll apologize to anyone who has been bothered by it. I wasn't intentionally being rude, and I'll freely admit that I was too lazy to type out the gibberish to put it in italics. Long chains of words strung together (I guess more succinctly referred to as a sentence) in caps, I would find wrong for this forum, but the occasional word in caps used for emphasis I assume is just a different form of italics.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by suminonA: BTW, please be careful when you make statements based only on your faulty memory, and then ask people to trust you at face value. I consider that to be a tad rude.
A.
I was asking you to trust me when I say that something that I incorrectly thought about you didn't bother me in the first place. I think you're thinking to much.
So you're not a dude, you're a chick?
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Well, what do you know, it appears that this thread is still on the first page, and I reached my conclusions already, and no “bump” is necessary! (I call “bump” the act of bringing up a thread from lower than 3 or 4 pages).
This proves at least 2 points: a) I exaggerated (not intentionally) when I though a few weeks were to be necessary. b) The conclusions are not that important (except the “rudeness” in particular). -> I agree with TomDavidson! (on that)
(I still hope that you’ll enjoy reading this long post to the end )
Therefore, I present you my conclusions:
1) About my rudeness:
I was excessively rude (without intention) and I have to (and want to) change that in the future. I repent, I ask for your understanding and hope to be able to move on.
A few observations (as usual ) : Not to excuse myself, but in order to explain my “rationale” in using the words I used when I appeared to be rude, and the “lazy” word in particular, my idea was: When I called Javert Hugo that, it was the point (the main cause) of not “accepting” his declarative statement. That is, if he would have said something like: “This morning I was so lazy that I overslept five minutes and skipped breakfast”, I would have never used that word to characterize him in the thread. But not giving evidence for his claim because he said he was <insert word here> is exactly why I needed to ask (and shout without intention at him) to elaborate. I apologise again and admit that my lack of tact was way over the top.
Also, using caps to emphasise (in that particular case) was wrong, I’ll avoid it to the max in the future.
In the other cases, I tried to use gremlins (thank again Christine for noticing) to show that what I said was in a friendly kind of way, not to intentionally be dismissive. I can improve that too, and use more and more gremlins in those cases.
Conclusion: I was wrong and apologise. I also thank to all the posters in this thread.
2) About personal information
I see that it appears that I am the source of all the fuss about it. (I don’t quite agree, but my impressions aren’t infallible). I’m sorry if my way of approaching this sounded like “Look, look, I have a pimple!” or “Oh, oh, I have a secret and not telling!”. It was never my intention. From the start (see landmark) I stated my position, and my reasons for that, and I even accepted to reveal all detail for those interested by private messaging. The information is not a secret, it’s just irrelevant for the public board. It is irrelevant and useless as long as I’m unReal Hatrack wise.
Now, I understand that not divulging some of it sounds like what I really want is to cheat on you and get more credit than what I deserve. The most obvious being the age issue. I’ve seen for myself young teenagers trying to pass as “adults” on the internet, but they are almost always given away by their own words, and most of the time fail pathetically. So I understand where that comes from.
Therefore, I assure you that I’m not 12 years old, that I have an engineering degree in Computer Science and that I’m not prodigious enough to have done that at the age of 10. So, whatever you say, I have lived a lot more years that what my words make me appear on this board, and that might be seen as a failing on my part. Yet I don’t mind, I only want you to “respect” (and/or accept) me for the maturity of my ideas not of the age of my ID.
The gender thing is still utterly irrelevant and I’ll keep it as it is. If that’s a problem say so and I’ll give it more thought.
Conclusion: You should know that I’m older IRL than the image seen on Hatrack, but still treat me as you would treat a person of the latter.
3) About the self-centreness
This is the thing that I realized only because starting this thread, and I am glad that I did. Looking in retrospective, from the threads that I started until now (not quite a dozen yet) the vast majority are about “myself”. (I find that only natural, because I don’t have the habit to start “fluff” threads and the topics that interest me I present from my point of view, because I know it best ). But more than that, I understood that even in the threads that I haven’t started, I seem to want to be “in charge” or “draw attention” as if I was the main poster there. That’s what I didn’t notice myself and the cause is obviously my self-centrenees (because I don’t do it out of superiority or authority complexes). I know my limitation (intelligence/culture/knowledge-wise) and always focusing on myself is the way I express what I know/think/believe.
So, this is my resolution:
Not to start any new thread about “myself” or “my beliefs”, before starting at least three other threads of general interest, presented from a neutral point of view, and not focused on mine. (A ratio 3 : 1 would bring a balance in the global posting, I think)
Not to seek monopoly in any thread, started by myself or otherwise. To let the discussion go where it wants to go, to “chime in” from time to time and not direct anyone or “boss around”.
Conclusion: I am too self-centred for this community and it would be better for everybody if I could “loosen up” a bit.
- - -
Additionally,
I’ll continue to visit and post here, and learn more as I go along, not only “factual knowledge”, but about behaviour, tact, humour, sarcasm, cynicism, irony, and community life (and communication) in general.
I’ll continue to ask questions. That will never stop. I only hope to do it right.
quote:Therefore, I assure you that I’m not 12 years old, that I have an engineering degree in Computer Science and that I’m not prodigious enough to have done that at the age of 10. So, whatever you say, I have lived a lot more years that what my words make me appear on this board, and that might be seen as a failing on my part. Yet I don’t mind, I only want you to “respect” (and/or accept) me for the maturity of my ideas not of the age of my ID.
The gender thing is still utterly irrelevant and I’ll keep it as it is. If that’s a problem say so and I’ll give it more thought.
As long as you continue to play that game, I'm not going to trust anything you say about who you are.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Yet I don’t mind, I only want you to “respect” (and/or accept) me for the maturity of my ideas not of the age of my ID.
But for me at least, it is precisely the maturity of your ideas that makes me think you are at best in your late teen or early twenties. If you are older than that then your education in the humanities (formal or informal), is severely lacking for someone of your age.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
The reasons why the Scott/Rivka exchange is funny would be revealed by a humanistic education, the history of religions in America in particular.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I'll take your word that you are a computer scientist. And the fact that you do not wish your gender to be known is under advisement.
It's good because I would have been pretty worried if you wanted to be a philosopher, resisting persuasion as you have that you should fit your positions into the known field.
It's not that nothing new can ever happen, but reinventing a wheel without knowing what wheels exist is not going to produce a new wheel.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:In all seriousness, do you think that I should stay away from the Post Reply button until then?
Seriously, you're worrying about this way too much. It's good that you are concerned with how other people see you, but you really don't need to draw attention to the fact that you're concerned about it, because that just makes you seem like you're only looking for attention instead of sincerely wanting to be a part of the community. And quite frankly, no one is even going to care much about you until you first contribute to the community or to a conversation in a way other than by constantly bringing attention to yourself.
Like all types of social interaction, you don't need to get everything correct right away, you'll learn as you go. You'll get different types of feedback, sometimes obvious, sometimes subtle. Think about it, take it to heart, and if necessary, adjust the way you post going forward. You don't need to keep everyone updated on all the adjustments you make, because, once again, that only looks like a cry for attention. And people will be more likely to converse with you if they think you're sincere and not just out to get attention.
Regarding personal information, just don't say things about yourself that you don't feel comfortable saying. There are plenty of people here that don't reveal personal information. But by constantly bringing attention to the fact that you've got information that you're not going to reveal, it casts doubt on the sincerity and truth of what you do say.
Regarding this thread, hopefully you've learned some things from it, but it's really not necessary to keep adding to it. In fact, everything in this thread is stuff that you probably would have learned over time anyway, except without acting like you're crying for attention. My advice would be to post a final comment in this thread saying that you appreciate the comments and that you hope to continue to enjoy and contribute to this community. You don't need to say whether you're going to stay, leave, or if you've learned anything. That will be self evident in your future posts.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by camus: My advice would be to post a final comment in this thread saying that you appreciate the comments and that you hope to continue to enjoy and contribute to this community. You don't need to say whether you're going to stay, leave, or if you've learned anything. That will be self evident in your future posts.
What camus said.
A.
[this is my final comment on this thread]
Posts: 1154 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by suminonA: The Rabbit, thank you. I am trying to remediate that. (talking about my lacking education)
In all seriousness, do you think that I should stay away from the Post Reply button until then?
Probably not necessary but do try giving some serious thought to other peoples posts before you hit reply and then address the things others have said with respect (which isn't the same as agreement) when you reply. This will show that you are as interested in what other people have to say as you are in what you are saying.
- - -
quote: edit: why is that funny? (talking about the joke)
A.
"They eat babies" is among the more egregious accusations that anti-Semites (and more rarely anti-Mormons) have made over the centuries. Somewhere along the line it became a Hatrack inside joke between rivka, who is an observant Jew, and Scott R, who is an active Mormon.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I should also add that I do feel that your intentions with this thread were good, despite how it may have looked to others. I think you do sincerely want to be a valuable member of this community, and that is commendable. We all make mistakes with how we interact, and we all hope to learn from them. If you make a mistake or are unintentionally rude or something to that effect, people understand because we've all done it. We all can look back at silly, immature, and outright inappropriate things we've said in the past. So don't get too caught up with worrying about every little thing you say. Just enjoy being a part of this place. In a year from now you'll think back to this thread and laugh. We all grow and change over time.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
*wonders* I wonder why Jews are observant but Mormons are active? Are Catholics observant, active, faithful, orthodox, what?
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Catholic distinction I'm most familiar with generally goes the other way, with no qualifier being used for those who are active, and "lapsed" being added to those who aren't.
In some places, the adjective "very" is added, but it's usually used to refer to a tiny subset of Catholic beliefs/practices. For example, many people referred to my folks as "very Catholic" because they had 6 kids.
Most of the people who did that were not Catholic.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I was going to say that the eating babies thing has long since spread to a Hatrack-wide joke. That is all. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
(Oh, and my aunt, who is Catholic, tends to say "observant Catholic" to distinguish from the "lapsed Catholic" and the "culturally Catholic." FWIW.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Is "lapsed Catholic" the equivalent of "Jack Mormon" where as "recovering Catholic" would be more like "apostate Mormon"
"Jack Mormon" A Mormon who has beer with his babies.
"Apostate Mormon" A former Mormon who used to revel in baby eating but has now seen the error of his ways and crusades against the eating of babies.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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