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The Gathering: Takes place just before S1 In the Beginning: Ten years before S1 but should only be watched after watching S4. Thirdspace: After S3. The River of Souls: S5 or after S5 (not sure, doesn't matter) A Call to Arms: 5 years after S5 The Legend of the Rangers: A couple years after S5 Voices in the Dark: 10 years after S5
I only really recommend "In the Beginning" for the reluctant viewer
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I think we might be using different definitions here, because in my view a reluctant viewer isn't going to make it through four seasons in order to get to the point where you say they should watch it.
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Maybe, what I meant is that for a viewer like Lyrhawn who has already gotten halfway through S1 or for someone that you're pretty sure will make it through S1, it is best to wait till S4 to see it to stop from hitting any spoilers.
However, I once had a roommate who saw it on my shelf and to my great surprise, they said that it was the only Babylon 5 they had ever seen and they really enjoyed it (except for the small framing story, which was confusing and they just ignored). As I said, I also introduced a close friend, totally unimpressed with science fiction normally, to Babylon 5 that way (who subsequently got hooked) and I was pretty sure based on their personality that they would have have passed if they had seen S1 first.
So to clarify, if they're mildly reluctant, but there is a chance they'll at least start with S1, best to wait till S4. If they're very reluctant and you figure thats probably the only B5 they'll *ever* see, it may be reasonable to start with this so you can at least communicate some of the ideas and the epic quality of the story.
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Honestly, I'd still say to skip The Gathering unless you really want to see the beginnings of Babylon 5. Its like seeing the first Star Trek pilot with Christopher Pike, interesting for the curious viewer but ultimately not that relevant and kinda boring.
Similarly, In The Beginning is unnecessary, but its the *good* kind of unnecessary (sort of like Infernal Affairs II rather than the Star Wars prequels)
I rather liked A Call to Arms, but it is the lead-in to Crusade which makes it somewhat of a mixed bag.
The others are rather like longer standalone episodes *shrug* B5 doesn't work well in small chunks.
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quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: The series really picked up for me too in the second season.
Season one is rather weak in terms of having some fairly cheesy episodes. Combined with the low production values, such episodes turned me off from watching the entire series. Examples of such episode s are the one with the Soul Hunter or whatever it was, or the fighting match episode.
Huh, I liked the Soul Hunter one a lot, it was the first B5 episode I saw that made me feel like I understood why folks liked it. (But I watched it back in the '90s, maybe the production values would bother me more now?)
Absolutely agree though about the boxing one. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
quote:The reason season 5 is optional is because, as mentioned above, JMS thought 4 would be his last and proceeded stuff season 4 with all the important remaining story lines and events he had envisioned. He didn't have much left over for 5, so the season overall feels somewhat funny compared to 2 through 4. But I feel though it's somewhat redeemed in its second half.
Season 5 is pretty dull. I remember reckoning that there were maybe 5 good episodes in the whole season. It's not just that there's less happening, it's that most of the shows were poorly written -- seeming like they were just JMS's first drafts -- and the production was pretty bad (the atmospheric lighting was gone and suddenly everything was all brightly lit and extra cheesy-looking).
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If it weren't for the fact that it furthers the Lando/G'Kar relationship, I'd say ditch season 5 entirely.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If it weren't for the fact that it furthers the Lando/G'Kar relationship, I'd say ditch season 5 entirely.
Lando is on Babylon 5? When does he get there?
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quote:Originally posted by plaid: Season 5 is pretty dull. I remember reckoning that there were maybe 5 good episodes in the whole season. It's not just that there's less happening, it's that most of the shows were poorly written -- seeming like they were just JMS's first drafts -- and the production was pretty bad (the atmospheric lighting was gone and suddenly everything was all brightly lit and extra cheesy-looking).
I'll agree with this when it comes to Byron. But the "who's attacking Alliance ships" plot line was gold.
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Basically, whenever I rewatch Season 5, I skip any episodes that have much to do with Byron's colony. Except possibly the last one or two with Bester, I just love that character.
I rather enjoy the Narn-Centauri arc in Season 5, but I can understand how some would find it slow.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If it weren't for the fact that it furthers the Lando/G'Kar relationship, I'd say ditch season 5 entirely.
mph, this sums up much of my views on the whole thing I mean, I actually like the majority of the series, but the Lando/G'Kar dynamic was by far the best part in my opinion (and the only thing that made me want to muck through season 5 really...)
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So we (my roommate and I (and a growing number of my suite mates who have gotten hooked) ) have just finished Season 2, and I am in a good mood.
First, the most painful thing about this show is the outdated special effects. It's not like some shows where even with a low budget they can make their special effects somewhat timeless. Instead, you get hard to watch periods where you're reminded of the computer games you played ten years ago. In particular, the scene in the last episode where Sheridan is in the trolley and jumps out after the bomb explodes. Absolutely painful.
Second, as some of you have said before, the show has reached the scale of epic, and it is significantly more watchable now that lame episodes that seem to serve no purpose are eliminated. Admittedly, there are still lame moments, but they're fewer now.
Third, I am so glad that they took Sinclair off. The guy just couldn't act. While Sheridan isn't a fantastic actor, he fits in just fine, is actually believable, and is able to make speeches and make them sound good.
Fourth, the Londo/G'Kar dynamic is excellent, and I look forward to episodes with them. Delenn is more often than not just boring. Kosh is awesome. Garibaldi is pretty lame, and Dr. Franklin is kind of a downer. Especially in "And Now for a Word," when he is interviewed, he gives this incredibly macabre story about his childhood students. The rest of the episode is somewhat funny, being this lame news channel with lame commercials, but his story was just so out of place:
quote:"A buddy of mine was messing around, zipping through the halls. And he hid in one of the air locks. I don't know, I guess he was going to scare us or something, I don't know. But just as I got close, he must have hit the wrong button because the air doors slammed shut and the space doors opened and he just flew out into space. The one thing they never tell you is that you don't die instantly in a vacuum, he just hung there against the black, a puppet with the strings all tangled up, or like one of those old cartoons where you run off a cliff and your legs keep going. You could see that he was trying to breathe but there was just nothing. The one thing I remember when they pulled in his body was that his eyes were frozen. A lot of people make jokes about spacing somebody, about shoving somebody out an air lock. I don't think it's funny. Never will."
Me and my roommate were screaming “My friend was spaced!” for days afterward.
Best Moments:
1.Vir insulting Morden in “In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum”
2. Anything Kosh did or said.
3.G'Kar quoting Yates in “Revelations.”
4.Londo analyzing the Hokey-Pokey song. “It does not mean anything. I've been studying it for seven days. I had the computer analyze it. I swear to you: it does not mean a thing!"
5.The episode “The Long, Twilight Struggle.”
6.Vir apologizing to G'Kar in the elevator in “Comes the Inquisitor”. G'Kar: “Dead! Dead! Dead! Dead! Dead! How do you apologize to them!?” Vir: “I can't!” G'Kar: “Then I cannot forgive.”
Worst Moments:
1.Ivanova having “sex” with the Lumati delegate in “Acts of Sacrifice.” “Boom! Shabba-labba-labba.” Just awful.
2.Any stupid fight that started in a stupid bar started by some stupid human for some stupid reason.
3.Any bar scene, for that matter. Bartender: “Hey! What do you call 2 billion dead Markev? Planetary redecorating! Ha! News...news gives me the creeps.” or “Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!” from another episode.
4.Delenn saying “Abso-fraggin-lutely, damn it!” in “The Long, Twilight Struggle.”
5.Delenn discussing the word 'butt' with Sheridan in “Divided Loyalties.” And I quote: “Butt? Butt. I butt, you butt, he or she butts...butt butt...butt butt.” Sheridan: “You sound like a motor boat.” Delenn: “Motor-butt? I don't think I like the sound of that.”
I hope the rest of you who are also watching the show are having as much fun as I am. Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Instead, you get hard to watch periods where you're reminded of the computer games you played ten years ago. In particular, the scene in the last episode where Sheridan is in the trolley and jumps out after the bomb explodes. Absolutely painful.
The amusing thing is if you watch his hair, there is a distinct lack of wind.
For me though, video games actually had the opposite effect. I'm less impressed by special effects in general since I always know that my PC will be able to generate better effects than the next SFX blockbuster in just a few years, no matter how impressive they are. So I'm free to focus on the story since I don't watch shows for special effects *shrug*
quote: 3.Any bar scene, for that matter. Bartender: “Hey! What do you call 2 billion dead Markev? Planetary redecorating! Ha! News...news gives me the creeps.” or “Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!” from another episode.
Actually, those scenes are kinda *supposed* to highlight how stupid humans are. The "Nuke'em" quote is probably a "dropped-in" quote referring to something that someone said in real life historically, just like "peace in our time" in the last episode.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Actually, those scenes are kinda *supposed* to highlight how stupid humans are. The "Nuke'em" quote is probably a "dropped-in" quote referring to something that someone said in real life historically, just like "peace in our time" in the last episode.
Alright, I can understand that. But can't they just once show some human who's not in the main cast who's not a dimwit or a reactionary drone?
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The cast is big, no? But anyways, there are plenty but the most prominent example that is not on the main cast would be Bester. I really like that character Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I fastforwarded through the Ivanova "sex" scene. That was funny, but odd.
The development of Londo and G'Kar is gut wrenchingly awesome. G'Kar especially, the poor guy, his people are being dominated, he wants help but can't get it, he shows willingness to give up a lifetime of hatred when the Centauri Emperor comes to town, only to have it thrown back in his face. Londo on the other hand has similar dreams of seeing his people rise again, but doesn't understand or like the price he's paying to get there. Him sitting in the bar waiting for Garibaldi was sad too.
This season is just awesome so far. I'm a little over halfway through and loving it. I'm also struck by a few similarities to DS9, it's a little disturbing really. I know there was a debate over how DS9 stole from B5, and there are some plot similarities, though thus far the characters themselves are 100% different, near as I can tell.
I still like DS9 more, but B5 is slowly creeping into the place in my heart I have reserved for awesome sci-fi. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I just finished "In the Shadow of Z'Had'um" Good episode. Vir is a cool little secondary character. Two discs left and then I'm done with Season 2.
I sent back Disc 4 to Netflix like a week ago and they never got it, so I reported it as missing. They immediately emailed me an apology and sent out my next disc. I was really impressed by the service. They didn't grill me or try to get me to pay for it, they just apologized to ME for the inconvenience and sent along my next disc. That was pretty awesome. I even feel bad that the disc was lost.
Anyway, I'll be done with S2 by Friday. I can't wait to see how this ends!
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Lyrhawn, at that rate, we should be at the same place by this weekend or early next week. Me and my roommate are still shooting for one episode a day, any more than that and it may start to interfere with any plans of completing thesis or actually graduating by May, but that still gives approx. 84 days to finish the semester (with about 60 episodes to go).
But then again, feel free to zip ahead of us if you wish.
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With the level of awesomeness this season is heading towards, I don't know if I'll be able to hold myself back. But, we could probably watch an episode or two together before I pass ya.
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It is good. I'm on episode 9 of the third season, and am fining about 80% of it fantastic. Every once in a while, there is still a cringe inducing moment, but there are also some moments that make me want to stand up and clap.
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I'm already onto the fourth episode of the third season. I should be caught up to you White Whale by the end of the week.
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I *love* season 3. I'll post longer thoughts when you guys reach the end, but for now I'll post some general thoughts. As I mentioned before, Season 1 (and season 2 to a lesser extent) was setup and proving ground.
As I mentioned before, the general idea before was to present a story essentially about a United Nations in space, something that could theoretically exist in something like a Star Trek universe, but to throw in the occasional twist, break conventions, and subvert the general idea so that things "aren't quite right."
Season 3 is when the show throws that out the window and goes in a totally new direction and all that planning pays off in a big way. Even the season 3 title sequence shows something that you shouldn't quite know about yet in the series, but it still works well.
The White Whale: What are some of the moments in S3 that made you want to stand up and clap (or cringe for that matter) ? Although I realise you may have been using the phrase figuratively, but I usually don't get quite that involved (either way) so I'm curious what made you react that way.
Lyrhawn and The White Whale: Out of sheer curiosity, how do you guys feel about the "lower-key" episodes? I'll pick "Passing through "Passing Through Gethsemane" arbitrarily as a start since I think both of you watched it already.
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I liked "Passing Through Gethsemane." Interesting choice of title for the episode too. I'd say in the first season the throw away episodes were hit or miss. Either they were entertaining as stand alones or they were episodes you watch just to make sure you don't miss details that would be necessary later on. But even the stand alones so far in this season are good.
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I agree with Lyrhawn, the stand-alone episodes are better than the previous two seasons. I liked "Passing Through Gethsemane," thought it was well done and didn't fall into the cheesiness that many of these side stories fall into. However, when the main characters are involved, and with the epic war going on, I can't help but wonder how everything has returned to normal long enough for these episode to play out. I imagine, with all of the politicking and managing that needs to go on every day, they would hardly have time to deal with or relax long enough for meaningful side adventures.
They do address this, at some points. In (312) "A Late Delivery from Avalon," Sheridan does say, in reference to "Arthur":
quote:"As interesting a diversion as this might be, our first concern right now has to be getting this treaty worked out."
But in response to Mucus, here are some of the points that made me want to clap:
In (310) "Severed Dreams" :
The speech given by Sheridan declaring independence from the Earth Alliance:
quote:"...as of this moment, Babylon 5 is cecseding from the Earth Alliance. We will remain an independent state until President Clarke is removed from office."
The episode itself feels like a movie, so we got caught up in the moment and cheered for Sheridan.
Also, when Delenn delivered her ultimatum to the earth forces who are attacking Babylon 5:
quote:Delenn: "Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdraw...or be destroyed." Earth forces: "Negative, we have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship." Delenn: "Why not? Only one human has every survived battle with a Mimbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
And others, while not making me want to clap, were also several powerful moments, either due to moments in the epic storyline, or the surprising development of a previously minor character (i.e. Vir):
Regarding Londo and Vir:
In the episode (309) "Point of No Return," when Lady Morella was prophesizing to Londo :
quote:Lady Morella to Londo: "One more thing. You will be Emperor. That part of your destiny can not be avoided." Londo: "I see." Lady Morella to Vir: "You will also be emperor." Londo: "Lady Morella, please. We can not both be Emperor." Lady Morella: "Correct. One of you will become Emperor .. after the other is dead. That is all we see and all we wish to see."
It makes both Londo and Vir much more complicated characters, and it fundamentally alters their relationship with each other. In (311) "Ceremonies of Light and Dark," when Londo poisoned Refa's drink, we get to see how Londo thrives in the politicking and sly back-stabbing. It is exiting, IMHO, to see him in this form. I can almost see why he is so resistant to changing his ways, since he's so good at it.
quote:Refa: "Why? Why did you do this?" Londo: "To guarantee your cooperation, and because, sooner or later you would do it to me. Yes, we are returning to the old ways, Refa, and poison was always the instrument of choice in the old republic, and being something of a sentimentalist, I got here first."
Also, when Londo stayed with Lanir while he was in the coma in (302) "Convictions" :
quote:Londo: "I'm gong to take a break now [from talking], and wait for you to talk. And if you don't I'll just start talking again...and we wouldn't want that, now would we?...take your time...no pressure...I'll wait..."
Also, the "mind rape" G'Kar did on Londo in episode (306) "Dust to Dust," especially the quick and dramatic rush of images and memories, it was very powerful, both for Londo and G'Kar.
However, there has been a fair share of cringe-worthy moments:
The computer AI getting a Brooklyn-type accent and "personality."
Londo and the bug in his room.
King Arthur? I mean, really? Where did that guy get chain mail and a sword in space?
Sheridan and Delenn, I guess we're supposed to feel chemistry between them? I usually just want the story to focus back on Kosh, Londo/G'Kar, or Vir.
Oh, and I now have a new favorite moment, in (313) "Sic Transit Vir" :
quote:Vir: "There were other women, but I never got past one." Ivanova: "Um, uh...ah...You mean first base." Vir: "No, no, I mean one. You see, we have six uh .. we have six, you see, and each one is a different level of intimacy and pleasure. So, you know, first you have one, and that's meh. Then there's two .. and by you get to five it's a heehaa-heehaa."
It's probably a lame and cheesy moment, but I couldn't stop laughing.
I'm just past halfway now, should be done by next week with the Third Season.
[ February 18, 2008, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: The White Whale ]
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I see the chemistry between Sheridan and Delenn. I felt like they were trying to push Sinclair and Delenn together in the first season and I wasn't buying it at all, but these two are okay.
And I loved the lightbulb joke.
Londo: How many Centauri does it take to screw in a lightbulb? One. But in the glory days of the Republican, hundreds of servents would screw in lightbulbs at our command.
Something like that, but it was funny.
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Right, and that's why he complained so much when they had a Londo action figure, lacking all of the good bits.
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I love how whenever the Centauri talk about sex or masculinity (such as all the examples mentioned here), they do this gesture with both of their hands indicating their rib cage area.
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quote:Right, and that's why he complained so much when they had a Londo action figure, lacking all of the good bits.
One of my favorite lines...
Ivanova: So it appears you've been symbolically cast... Sheridan: (Angrily) Ivanova! Londo: (looks ready to explode) Ivanova: (Innocently) cast in a bad light.
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Re: Point of Return Severed Dreams is an obvious favourite, but I also have a special place in my heart for that episode simply because its one of the few science fiction episodes that I can think of where the day was saved by legal-babble rather than techno-babble, and yet it still works very well on an entertainment level
Re: Dust to Dust The G'Kar and Londo relationship is very interesting and even at this point their shared history makes that kind of montage very effective. Their relationship pretty much rescues S5 for me (damn you telepath colony!)
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W o w. That was amazing. I couldn't believe the big finish. I hope to start Season 4 in the next couple days.
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Also just finished Season 3. The last episode got me worried, it seemed that it had potential to get incredibly lame, but I should trust the show enough now to know that it has some sort of epic, dramatic sucker punch to make it all worth it in the end.
So Lyrhawn, I guess you're officially caught up. We're doing one or two episodes a day.
I'll do a summary of the best and worst moments of Season 3 (second half) in a few days, when I'm not so busy.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yeah, I re-watched a bit of season 3 and I can definitely say that it includes much that appeals to me about B5.
I especially like the fact that there is essentially one time travel event, but that one event has repercussions throughout the history of the series including the previous war against the Shadows and a longer glimpse at essentially the end of the G'Kar/Londo relationship (which is a nice twist on the expectations from when we saw it in first season). What especially impressed me was that this is probably the only example to date where a TV show essentially time travelled "forward" in the series in a planned fashion.
The reveal at Z'ha'dum was nice too, I recall that there were substantial debates online about whether the Shadows were actually right about the whole thing Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I've got a few questions about the planning of the show:
Did they have a pretty concrete plan when they started the show? Or did they make most of it up as they went along?
I have trouble figuring this out, because they got rid of Sinclair after the first season, and I thought it was because he was a bad actor and was dragging the show down. If this is the case, did they plan (from Season 1?) to have him be Valen, or did they replan the whole storyline at the beginning of the second season?
Mucus, you're right. The time travel episode was one of the most complete and well executed ones I've ever seen, with it stretching back to Season 1 and up to (I assume) the end of the show.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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JMS had the outline of the entire 5-season show done when they started the show.
However, he didn't stick with it all the time.
Sinclair was always supposed to become Valen, but he wasn't supposed to drop out of the show so early. In the DVD commentary somewhere he says that he realized that he had too much planned for the character with both the Minbari and the Shadows/Vorlon. So he essentially split the character into two, had Sinclair do most of the Minbari/Valen half, and had Sheridan do the Shadow/Vorlon half.
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