posted
This may be an issue that has already been brought up in other threads, and if it's been run into the ground this will just be a mayfly.
But ever since the whole 'fiasco' around Michelle Obama only now being proud of her country, I've been thinking about those words: "proud to be an American".
And I've stopped and asked myself. Am I proud to be an American?
Well, no. Not really.
Don't get me wrong. I love living in America. I couldn't imagine living anywhere else. And I think, as far as societies and governments and cultures go, we're better off than most.
But proud?
The issue I have is mainly because I was born an American. I had no choice in the matter. I didn't have to do anything or earn the right to become an American. I was born, and so I am one.
I'm no more proud to be an American than I'm proud to be Caucasian, male or brown-eyed. I like all those things, but I have no pride surrounding them.
I'm proud of my philosophical stances. I'm proud of my accomplishments as an actor, a student, and even an office worker. I'm proud of the achievements of homo sapiens sapiens. And, on occasion, I'm proud to be associated with this country for the things it does.
But would I say I was proud to be an American?
No.
And I don't think that makes me any less American than the other 300 million who live here.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I thought you were going to break into song. But I guess you took a different track.
quote:homo sapiens sapiens
Most people don't get the second sapiens. Nice.
It's a difficult subject to really nail down I think. What does it really even mean to be proud to be an American? Does it mean you are proud of the current state of affairs in America? Proud of our foreign affairs? Proud of what it means to be an American or proud of American ideals? It could easily mean something entirely different from one person to the next.
I'm not proud of what America has done in the past few years around the world, nor am I proud of what we've done to ourselves in the past few years. But I don't think that erases the great good we've done around the world in the past, or even in some areas of the world more recently, like life saving aid we've given to Africa. I'm very proud of greater American ideals, the things we always talk about what we want to be, even if we aren't there yet, as there are a lot of countries that never even have the discussion. There's always going to be someone who wants to push us over the edge of the abyss, but by and large we always manage to find our balance. That's something to be proud of as well.
So am I proud to be an American? Yes and no. I don't think there's an easy answer. With specific regards to Michelle Obama, I agree with her that this is the first time in my adult life that I'm really proud of the electorate for coming out in the numbers that they have and really getting involved in the process this time around. It's infusing our democracy with a new kind of energy. And I disagree with Cindy McCain about always having been proud of America. Pretending we're without flaws is just looking through rose colored glasses, and if you don't see the problems, you can't fix them.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I'm lost. Michelle Obama said that she's now proud *of* America. You're saying that you're not proud to *be* American. Those are two slightly different issues, no?
One can be proud to be American, yet not proud of America or conversely (and more rarely) one could be proud of America yet not proud to be American, no?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I'm lost. Michelle Obama said that she's now proud *of* America. You're saying that you're not proud to *be* American. Those are two slightly different issues, no?
They are. But one got me started thinking about the other. That and the constant "I'm proud to be an American, 'cause at least I know I'm free!" blaring in my head.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
It is a rather moving song. I might not always agree with the hyperpatriotic feel of it, but it's hard not to get goosebumps or a little upwelling of emotion whenever I hear it. I get the same feeling from a lot of patriotic songs like the national anthem or "America the Beautiful," or "Stars and Stripes Forever."
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posted
Also, even if one is born in America and has no choice to be called an "American", is it not possible to be ashamed of being from this country? I ask this hypothetically.
Personally, there are actions performed by the U.S. that I approve of, and others that I do not. These have an impact on the esteem in which I hold the government and the citizenry (is that a word?) of the U.S., but do not have a large amount of impact on my own self-worth.
Is that not what pride is? Pride is an increase in my self-esteem based on the actions of other people who are in some way related to me. My self-esteem increases when my students do well, or when a group I am associated with receives positive recognition. Conversely, shame is a decrease of self-esteem based on the actions of groups.
Lastly, to say one does not have a choice about being a citizen of the U.S. is not entirely true. It is possible to revoke one's citizenship in favor of that of any country (people in Oregon frequently joke about moving to Canada...), though I can see how this would necessitate a high degree of shame at the actions of the United States.
posted
I can see many reasons for why someone may be proud of America or Americans. But the idea that a person can be proud to be an American doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I suppose if maybe that person moved here and became an American citizen, they might then be proud to be an American.
quote:The issue I have is mainly because I was born an American. I had no choice in the matter. I didn't have to do anything or earn the right to become an American. I was born, and so I am one.
I'm no more proud to be an American than I'm proud to be Caucasian, male or brown-eyed. I like all those things, but I have no pride surrounding them.
Yeah, that's basically how I feel. In my opinion, being proud to be an American is like being proud of having opposable thumbs. It's not something I had a whole lot of control over, so it's not something I can be proud of.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I feel lucky to be an American, rather than proud. But I suspect most people who say they're proud to be American don't mean they think they did something to deserve it; they probably mean they feel proud of America. That would be my guess.
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posted
I agree with Qaz, about feeling lucky instead of proud. I'm grateful to America for giving me such a high standard of life, but being American is not a significant part of my identity.
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posted
Of all the patriotic songs, "Proud to be an American" is my least favorite. It's got an awkward melody, an epic "country-music" chord progression, and lyrics that lack poetry--with the culminating line of "God Bless the USA!" Reminds me of a Ben Folds lyric:
"God made us number one cause he loves us the best. Well maybe he should go bless someone else for a while, give us a rest."
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I really dislike "proud to be an American" too. However, the use of the word proud is consistant with usage in the Deep South such as: "We're right proud that you could stop by"; or: "I'm proud to make your accquaintance."
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I'm proud of the what I think of as the ideals of America. The right to freedom of speech and assembly, to practice religion (or not) and not be compelled in doing so. The belief that, given power and freedom, people will still unite to further the common good. And the recognition that, whatever country your ancestors may have come from, you are no less a part of the grand undertaking that is America.
I recognize that, in as much as America can be viewed as a single entity, it often falls short of those ideals.
In the context of a political discussion, I was asked by a New Zealander what was so great about America, and it was hard to come up with a good answer (I wish I had had more time.) It would be easy to answer in many countries, but New Zealand? Well, we have freedom of speech! (Yes, they do too.) We practice democracy! (Ditto.) We gave women the right to vote! (And they did forty years before we did.) We... Ah... Didn't ban genetically modified foods... Crushed the indigenous population to the point that it no longer has a significant voice... Not only allow vessels armed with nuclear weapons in our ports, but are the most likely producers of such... Crap.
On the line of songs, I can't help but think of Simon and Garfunkel's take... That for all that they've spent their whole lives there, many people are still "looking for America."
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: Of all the patriotic songs, "Proud to be an American" is my least favorite. It's got an awkward melody, an epic "country-music" chord progression, and lyrics that lack poetry
posted
I can't wait until this thread dies. I loathe that song. Absolutely detest it. And every time I see this damn thread it pops back in my head. Ugh. I'm half-tempted to report the thread as brain pollution.
I'm proud to be an American because I'm proud to be connected, by association, with the great things America has done. It's not my own accomplishment, and I don't claim it as such, but pride is still an appropriate word to describe the feeling.
I'm ashamed of the shameful things America has done, but they don't begin to negate all the positive.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I love my country, but there are times when I am ashamed to be an American. Ashamed of the things that are done in the name of this country. Ashamed of our national priorities, and the way we treat our citizens and citizens of other nations.
But I don't hate my country. I try to do my part to make it better so that I can be proud of what she stands for.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I don't like the song much. It just doesn't stir me the way "America the Beautiful" does (talk about a song guaranteed to make me cry!)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I think the very term "proud to be an American," along with its psuedo-inspirational cloying relationship with Lee Greenwood's "God bless the U.S.A." is part of the problem when it comes to "national pride."
The song is a great example of what I think is wrong with our culture. This is not to say I think we're bad, because generally I don't, but the song, and the culture surrounding it and supporting it, insists that if we aren't "the best" then we aren't really living. Part of the history of our country has been a division along class and racial lines which has defined white American and black American culture. I think the fact that Michelle Obama is black, is relevant to the issue for that reason.
The idea that "God blessed the USA" and that America is "God's Country" goes back to the days when white Americans prospered from a combination of free labor and abundant resources. White America was so dominant as a group and so secure in its place, that when the country became a "melting pot" I think whites began to ignore their cultural roots in order to fit within the dominant majority. Whites didn't need culture, and they were encouraged to become solely "American." Which is as much a set of political ideologies as a culture.
That song makes me physically uncomfortable. I think part of the reason is that my sense of self and my sense of our place as a nation is at odds with the sentiment it expresses, that we require no identity other than our affiliation with an ideology. I think Michelle Obama probably also feels that way about the phrase, that she is and has good reason to be less than proud of the history of this country and how it has treated her and the people in it. There are things to be proud of, but as a statement, "Proud to be an American" is a profound one, and not one that should be taken lightly. It demands adherence to a political ideology and world view one may not share. Why, I ask, would she want her husband to become president at all if she thought that America was just fine the way it was?
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posted
Usually I'm pretty neutral to be an American.
Maybe sometimes I think it's pretty neat to be the toughest country with the fanciest gizmos and the best military and all of that.
But, if I may channel Ron Lambert here, myself and everyone else here who admits that they haven't consistently been proud to be American had better check themselves in to the nearest Al-Qaeda Sellout Tendencies Truth Matrix.
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Orincoro pointed out the following as objectionable:
quote:the song, and the culture surrounding it and supporting it, insists that if we aren't "the best" then we aren't really living.
I don't see where that's implied in the song lyrics. Further, there's no real ideology presented in the song, as far as I can tell. There's the amorphous term "American" that's supposed to mean something; it's supposed to mean something to a group of people who are widely distributed over a large geographical area; but there's no indication of what "American" stands for, beyond freedom.
I'm not a fan of the song because it's empty. Give me 'America the Beautiful' any day, where ideals like "Brotherhood" and "self-control" and "liberty in law" are named.
[ February 22, 2008, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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posted
The reason McCain is getting hammered for this ridiculous "affair" thing and Obama is getting a pass for his wife's dissing America is that Republicans at least claim to stand for family values. While Democrats aren't expected to have any national pride. That's why the Che flag in the Obama office was barely mentioned, too.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I have a very vivid, lasting memory of that song. I was raised to be proud of America. Growing up, I had a deeply rooted sense that we were always "the good guys" in any conflict. It wasn't something I ever really thought about; it was just assumed.
Then we elected President Bush. And we were attacked. And we geared up to invade a country that hadn't done anything to us...
So I started paying attention. I got involved. I started to really read history. And I discovered that we haven't always been the good guys. We have ideals that inspire me with awe and pride, but we often fail to live up to them. We have sometimes been unjust aggressors as well as rescuers.
The first Fourth of July was tough for me after we invaded Iraq. I was at a festival and every year a group of mentally disabled folks from a local facility puts on a show. For their finale, they did a dance number to this song, waving flags and singing along and beaming with pride.
I broke down. I sat there in that festival tent and sobbed. I so wanted to be able to have that uncomplicated pride again. But I'm a grown up and a citizen and I have a duty to pay attention and participate and understand. It can't be uncomplicated for me anymore.
I have seen in this election, though, signs that we do have the will and the desire to live up to our ideals. And that does make me proud in a better way than the way I lost.
quote:The issue I have is mainly because I was born an American. I had no choice in the matter. I didn't have to do anything or earn the right to become an American. I was born, and so I am one.
There's American and American, rather like the difference between an absentee non-contributing parent and one who is actually there either working to directly support their child, or neck-deep in the day-to-day business of raising that child.
I am proud to be an American not in the sense that I am an American citizen-that came with my birth, and I really didn't have a whole lot to do with that. *cue pregnancy & labor jokes*
I am, however, proud to be an American because I am a participating, contributing American. I vote regularly in local, state, and federal elections (although that's not entirely noble, because honestly, at the state and local level, us regular voters can exert a surprising amount of influence on our politicians). I am also proud to be an American because I try to get more people I live and work with involved in politics, thus making our society more fully democratic.
And I am proud of my country in much the same way I expect a parent might still be able to have pride in their child when that child brings home a crappy grade from school, or lies to them about something, or even seriously deviates from their moral code.
I don't expect perfection.
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posted
No. He should have at the very least publically stated that he was against it once it came to light.
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quote:Sen. Barack Obama's campaign said Friday that a flag bearing the image of Ernesto ''Che'' Guevara, which was hanging on the wall of a Houston office used by volunteers, was ''offensive'' for many Cuban-Americans.
''We were disappointed to see this picture because it is both offensive to many Cuban Americans and Americans of all backgrounds, and because it does not reflect Senator Obama's views,'' the Democratic presidential hopeful's campaign said in a press release to El Nuevo Herald.
The office where the image was located belongs to volunteer workers and is not supervised in any way by the Obama campaign, according to the press release.
''Barack Obama has been very clear in putting forth a Cuba policy based on one principle: freedom for the Cuban people,'' it said.
posted
Admiring Che is not the same as admiring Castro. Che is nowhere near as intelligent as those who idolize him make him out to be, and he was certainly not a good tactician. And, in my opinion, he was misguided. But I tend to believe that Che was genuine in his convictions. And there is no denying that Che was brave as hell, and dedicated, though it was to the wrong cause.
Seeing the popularity of Che images still makes me uncomfortable, though, because I know that many of the people who display it don't know as much about him as I do, and magnify his positive qualities out of all proportion to his negative ones. And because many of them are naive, and naive enough to idolize Castro as well.
But you know, the side you oppose can still have some misguided but otherwise admirable people on it. It doesn't weaken one to admit that.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Scott, I agree with Orincoro when it comes to the culture surrounding the song. (I am tempted to name Hatrack names, here, but I'll refrain. I'll beam them at you though. <meeemeeemeeemeeemeeep> There. You know who I'm thinking of.) The people who suggest that those who criticize America love America less, or are even disloyal. The sort who believe the Left in this country has a vested interest in our defeat in the War on Terror. The sort who use words like Leftaliban. The sort of people for whom Toby Keith's "Have You Forgotten" has about the same meaning as Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American."
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: The sort of people for whom Toby Keith's "Have You Forgotten" has about the same meaning as Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American."
Ah, you mean people like me.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I am proud of people like Robert E. Lee, who had high moral standards and was a simply brilliant. I suppose that I am proud of the best of America, and ashamed of the worst. America doesn't seem to have the nationalism that other countries has. Don't get me wrong, Americans are nationalistic, but many identify as Italian-American or the like, rather than simply American. Oh, this thread made me listen to the song.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: The sort of people for whom Toby Keith's "Have You Forgotten" has about the same meaning as Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American."
You believe those who oppose the Iraq War do so because they are cowardly and believe in backing down? You believe that we are in Iraq in retribution against Bin Laden for 9/11? You believe that those who oppose the Iraq war believe we shouldn't worry about Bin Laden?
Or do you mean you view them as essentially the same because you loathe both songs? In that case, I agree with you. But I was responding to Scott, who was pointing out that there's nothing quite as objectionable in "Proud to be an American," and my point was that there may indeed not be, but the culture Orincoro objects to, "the culture surrounding ['Proud to be an American'] and supporting it" is the same culture that believes all the crap in the other song. I don't think he means everyone who likes the song "Proud to be An American," but those who trot it out as though it were in some way an answer to those who don't support this war. Here in the south--hell, here on Hatrack--I see those people. I assume you've seen them too, although I could be mistaken. Given what I know of your views, I do not associate you with that group.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I like most of what I know of Robert E. Lee. And it's impossible to deny that he was brilliant, well, combined with the fact that the armies he tangled with were largely run by idiots. It seems some of the biggest problems he faced from the North were from junior officers acting independently.
I hadn't heard "Have you Forgotten" before, but I looked up the lyrics. I don't even think it's close to "God Bless the USA." I don't care what anyone says, I still like the Lee Greenwood song. It's nowhere near America the Beautiful or God Bless America on the scale of awesomeness, for me personally, but I still like it. It's a catchy, somewhat fun, country song that doesn't point any fingers or anything, it just says he's happy he lives here, and if he had to start all over, he's glad it'd be here. Nothing wrong with that, and frankly I don't think it's empty either. Maybe it's not great by some literally technical standards, but I don't much care about that.
Songs like "Have you Forgotten," which is by Worley, not Keith (who has his own set of crappy faux patriotic songs most entailing the "red white and blue" "kicking some ass") to me aren't patriotic songs at all, they're partisan political songs. Lee Greenwood didn't have an agenda. Worley I think clearly does. I don't know what Keith's agenda is, outside of selling F-150's. And I'm staunch anti-war liberal; no where near the argument that would use Greenwood's song the way Worley's song can only be used for.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I think the whole topic is just subject to circular reasoning.
You say you are not proud to be an American...yet you are one. So when you ponder the question, what in fact are you thinking about? The government, society, tv, the young kids, etc? What exactly are you not proud of?
In all honesty instead of sitting here on a forum wondering about it, be an American whom people are proud of and are proud that you contribute to their country. In all technical sense be someone who you are proud of, and since you're are American...by pure logical reasoning and technical sense you're proud to be an American.
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