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Author Topic: Dwarf crime, a "Growing Problem" (not fantasy related)
Eduardo_Sauron
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No, seriously... read here.

After all, where there is a will, there is a way... [Dont Know]

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Marek
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Isn't it also possible that some normal sized crew members are just taking things out of people's luggage?

[ February 23, 2008, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Marek ]

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Icarus
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I heard about this on "Wait, Wait . . . Don't Tell Me" last week, or the week before. I was totally thrown. (But not by a midget.)
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Launchywiggin
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pffft. [ROFL]

Nice one icarus.

The whole point is that the midgets can be snuck into the holding area in a suitcase. Big people can't.

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dantesparadigm
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Looks like this pint sized purloiner problem needs be cut down to size before any one else gets short changed. We need to cut the small talk and stunt the growth of this criminal industry. It may seem like a little problem, but the potential consequences dwarf the risk of inaction.
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Sala
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[Smile]
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by Marek:
Isn't it also possible that some normal sized crew members are just taking things out of people's luggage?

It's a coach in motion, which I think means it is a bus. The bags would then be stored underneath the bus in a storage area only opened up at the beginning and end of the journey (maybe at rest stops), and passengers would be present whenever the bus is stopped and the underside storage compartment could be opened.

The space is very small -- not only could a typical-sized person not fit well in there or move around much, such a person wouldn't fit into the luggage to get in the underside compartment without being detected.

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ketchupqueen
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Can we please refrain from use of "midget"?
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Elmer's Glue
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Maybe it's just me, but I think dwarf is more insulting than midget.
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ketchupqueen
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Are you a Little Person?

Every Little Person I have known is pretty okay with use of "dwarf", especially in a medical or technical context. Some self-identify as a "such and such dwarf" (such and such being their specific medical type of dwarfism.) Most self-identify as a "Little Person" or "LP." If given a choice, that is what most of them would wish to be called. A few prefer "person of short stature."

ALL of the LPs I have known find "midget" very offensive. Midget is to LP what the n-word is to African-American. It's just not cool, and I was raised to treat it as such. So I have a visceral reaction similar to the one I have when I hear the n-word.

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Glenn Arnold
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Hervé Villechaize preferred to be called a midget.
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adfectio
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quote:
Midget is to LP what the n-word is to African-American.
Midget used to be a medical term, until common usage made it 'vulgar'. The n-word never was a medical term. And if it is really that bad, why is it we feel ok saying and typing midget, but not the n-word?
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ketchupqueen
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I do wince every time I type "midget." In our house we refer to it as "the m-word." But most people would not understand what I meant if I did that, so I do type it out on many forums for clarity.

Also "midget" was not so much a medical term as a classification, from what I understand. It referred to a couple of different types of dwarfism, and has become so reviled that even those to whom it could be legitimately applied prefer to be identified as LPs or their-specific-type dwarfs.

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adfectio
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I'm not trying to say it's not offensive. It probably is to the people it would 'apply to.'

I think all I mean is that while it should probably be avoided, it's not as bad as other choices.

Instead of being compared to the n-word, it would probably be more analogous to compare it to the term 'black.' Does that make sense?

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ketchupqueen
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(I speak in general, of course. I'm sure there are LP individuals who don't mind "midget" at all. But in general and among all the LPs I have talked to about it, that is not the case.)
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ketchupqueen
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The LPs I know who have explained to me how offensive it is are the ones who compare it to the n-word. That is how it feels to them, when that is what they are called. It doesn't feel like being called "black." (Black is pretty pc, actually.)
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Launchywiggin
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Apologies on my part. Learn something new every day.

It's admittedly hard to keep up with PC-lingo across the board. What bothers me is when people become appalled and offended at you for not knowing which terminology has become offensive.

--which is why I'm glad kq was kind enough to just ask us not to use that word.

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MightyCow
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Do Little People use it with one another?

"Midget, please!"

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ketchupqueen
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Not so much (at least that I have heard.) Sometimes they use "dwarf" in a similar sense-- not quite like that, though.

Though if you search this forum for "midget" you'll find a previous thread where someone linked to a letter to Ebert that touched on the subject, and the writer mentions a comedian friend who uses "midga" as kind of the same thing in his act.

(I'd do it for you but I'm currently on the computer where I can't link.)

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ketchupqueen
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(Now I'm on the other 'puter. Here's the article/letter.)
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ketchupqueen
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(I guess, upon re-reading, that it was the guy himself with his comedy act. It's been a while since I read that.)
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Nighthawk
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You prefer "vertically challenged"?
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Icarus
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Huh. I can't think of a derogatory word for Latinos that strikes me as comparable to the N-Word. Must be that Latinos just don't face the same level of hate that African Americans and Little People do, that we haven't had such words created about us.

-o-

I will endeavor to not use the word "midget" again.

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Itsame
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I can, Icarus. Maybe it's just because I am from California.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I have serious doubts that the word midget is really comparable to the word nigger, if for no other reason than the fact that there are a lot of people who use the word midget without knowing that anybody thinks its offensive.
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pooka
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I think it's more like "colored" than the n-word.

The whole progression of words that we have recently come to label PC as it applies to both African Americans and Women is a pretty interesting linguistic phenomenon. I forget if it has a name. I think it may be "perjorative creep." [Big Grin]

And I was one week ahead of the curve because someone wrote a letter to Glenn Back about this subject last week, when he was talking about how he found the specificity of exit polls ridiculous.

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Foust
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I don't think any "midgets" have ever been lynched or enslaved. That other word we're all so afraid to use refers to a context of viciousness and hatred. I doubt "LPs" have ever been on anyone's radar strongly enough to warrant being the targets of such brutality (referring to modern and comteporary north American, of course).
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Xavier
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quote:
Huh. I can't think of a derogatory word for Latinos that strikes me as comparable to the N-Word. Must be that Latinos just don't face the same level of hate that African Americans and Little People do, that we haven't had such words created about us.
I hate to have a hatrack thread full of so many offensive words, but I'd always though that this was the latino equivalent of the n-word.

Edit: Now that I am thinking about it, however, I'm afraid I've just managed to not pick up on some subtle (too subtle for me anyway) humor.

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adfectio
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Thanks for the link, KQ.

Although it still doesn't relate directly with the n-word in my mind, probably more along the lines of 'black' still, since that one sits as derogatory as compared to 'African American,' I'll try to avoid using the word 'midget' from now on.

Huh. Shows what you can learn at random times.

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katharina
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I had a friend from Detroit who really hated "African American" and preferred "black."

As she said, she's just as American as anyone else.

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Belle
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I've been told that "black" and "African-American" are synonomous, at least as pertains to my African-American lit class. Our professor told us we could use either one interchangeably. She herself uses "black" even though the name of the course is "African-American" lit. Which she abbreviates to "Af-Am," incidentally.

Edit: Kat, I've seen people react the same way. One said if we were going to call her "African-American" then we should put an "American" tag on everybody. Which would be problematic in my case since "Irish-Hungarian-French-British-Romanian-American" is rather awkward.

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mr_porteiro_head
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The equivalent to African-American in your case would be European-American.
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Dagonee
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I heard a surreal radio show where one of the guests said that immigrants from Africa aren't African-Americans because that term meant Americans descended from slaves.

The overall topic was much more reasonable: the vast difference in experience between blacks whose families have been in America for generations and recent immigrants. But the "African-American" part of it made me wince.

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ketchupqueen
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Little People do have a history of abuse and exploitation and maltreatment, and it's linked to that word.

And I, too, can think of a word for Latinos that implies exploitation and derision and is considered almost that bad, and is never, ever used by people who are not horribly racist. (Unfortunately, I get to hear it from my brother now and then. When I'm taking his calls. Which lately is not often.)

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Seatarsprayan
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It's interesting what people like and don't like to be called.

From my non-dwarf perspective, it seems like "Little Person" isn't that nice a term. I'd rather just be called Short than Little. Seems less condescending.

Maybe that's because I've heard so many people use "little" that way. For example if you ran a home business and someone said "So, how's your little home business going?" you'd interpret it to mean they didn't think it was a real business, just a cute pretend one.

Since I personally don't have any prejudices when it comes to height, if I were to use the word midget, it'd be completely free of any derogatory meaning. Same with dwarf.

But words aren't just what the user means them to mean, they're also what we can predictably know other people are going to interpret them to mean.

So I don't call anyone a midget, because they don't like it. And I use the term Little Person because they prefer it, even though *I* don't like it. It makes me feel like I'm condescending even though I'm not!

Language is weird.

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ketchupqueen
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I do know some people who prefer "person of short stature" or "short person." They seem to be the minority in the group, though, I think because "Little Person" and "LP" have gone through something like "black" did, re-claiming it as a power word. "Person of short stature" or "LP" are very accepted alternatives among LPs I know if you feel uncomfortable saying the full term "Little Person." [Smile]
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Primal Curve
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quote:
Originally posted by Seatarsprayan:
Short than Little

I can see it from a different angle. If something is short, something is missing. If something is little, it's usually intentionally that way.

For example, a doll with an arm broken off is short one arm. A D&D minature is little.

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Icarus
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quote:
Originally posted by JonHecht:
I can, Icarus. Maybe it's just because I am from California.

I'd be very surprised if you were aware of a derogatory word for Latino which I had never heard.

And I live in Florida.

quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
I hate to have a hatrack thread full of so many offensive words, but I'd always though that this was the latino equivalent of the n-word.

It may be the "equivalent" in terms of being a nasty word, but I wouldn't say that it's equivalent in terms of nastiness or history.

And like Pooka, Foust, Porter, etc., I don't believe the m word is equivalent to the n-word.

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Tammy
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quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:
Originally posted by Marek:
Isn't it also possible that some normal sized crew members are just taking things out of people's luggage?

It's a coach in motion, which I think means it is a bus. The bags would then be stored underneath the bus in a storage area only opened up at the beginning and end of the journey (maybe at rest stops), and passengers would be present whenever the bus is stopped and the underside storage compartment could be opened.

The space is very small -- not only could a typical-sized person not fit well in there or move around much, such a person wouldn't fit into the luggage to get in the underside compartment without being detected.

With the way they stuff the baggage into those compartments, do you think even a little person could have room to rummage around?
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Alcon
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quote:
Q: What is a midget?

A: In some circles, a midget is the term used for a proportionate dwarf. However, the term has fallen into disfavor and is considered offensive by most people of short stature. The term dates back to 1865, the height of the "freak show" era, and was generally applied only to short-statured persons who were displayed for public amusement, which is why it is considered so unacceptable today.

Such terms as dwarf, little person, LP, and person of short stature are all acceptable, but most people would rather be referred to by their name than by a label.

If the LPA website admits that it's still acceptable in some circles then it can't be nearly as bad as the n-word. The n-word definitely falls into the generally offensive word category. 'Midget' really really doesn't. No one else on this thread had heard of it before, no one else here I've mentioned it to have heard of it before, it really isn't a generally offensive term.

I can understand it being offensive when applied to dwarves, and even before seeing this thread I don't think I'd have called a dwarf a midget to his or her face unless I knew they were okay with it in a joking manner. But comparing it to the n-word is more than a little extreme.

Sorry, political correctness and words becoming offensive is sort of a pet peeve of mind.

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Glenn Arnold
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A rule of thumb: if a name for a type of person is derived from a description of that person's characteristics, it can always be made into an insult by applying a mocking tone.

Call someone "a black" or "a Latino" or "a mute" and you dehumanize them. They are no longer a person, they become the characteristic.

The black community in particular has great difficulty with this, because they keep reinventing their preferred term, and they keep choosing an adjective. There's a simple solution, which is to demand to be called a "person." Let the adjective be arbitrary.

Thus a person can be a "black person," a "colored person," a "negro person," an "african american person"... or a "little person," or whatever. Regardless of the adjective chosen, you can't be accused of dehumanizing the person in question.

On the other hand, words that wrap the description into a noun that can't be separated from the descriptor are always going to carry derogatory baggage, even if the term is acceptable. "A jew" may be perfectly acceptible, but by itself, it carries reminders of all the times the word is spat by anti-semites. Better to say "a jewish person" and remove the possibility. But some words can't work that way. You can't say "a dwarf person" (even dwarvish implies a different race) or "a midget person." But you can say "a short person" or "a little person."

Those are my guidelines, anyway.

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Fusiachi
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I like those guidelines, and the thoughtfulness behind them.
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Icarus
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Glenn, your logic is compelling. Until populations adopt that, I prefer to call people by what they want to be called. I may make mistakes due to ignorance, but they won't be deliberate, and I hope people will give me the benefit of the doubt.
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Until populations adopt that, I prefer to call people by what they want to be called.
It's easy enough to do both. If someone wants to be called black, call them "a black person," and you haven't disregarded their request.
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Elizabeth
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
I heard a surreal radio show where one of the guests said that immigrants from Africa aren't African-Americans because that term meant Americans descended from slaves.

The overall topic was much more reasonable: the vast difference in experience between blacks whose families have been in America for generations and recent immigrants. But the "African-American" part of it made me wince.

This was a huge issue for Barack Obama earlier in his campaign. I think there might have been a thread about it here.

Link: http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/22/obama/
(Debra Dickerson)

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Morbo
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This thread reminds me of the Simpsons when Marge stumbles on a Mafia stalemate:
"It's an Italian-American Mexican standoff!"

Also, I recently stumbled on a list of -nym words. On it are 2 I hadn't heard of (well, more than 2): autonym (the name given to itself by a tribe or people) and exonym (a name by which one people or social group refers to another and by which the group so named does not refer to itself.) But endonym was left off the list for no reason.

In general I try to use a group's autonym. This is hard or impossible when there's no consensus among them, or it changes over time.

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