quote:The way I figure it a parent that pays taxes and has their children in private school is freeing up money and a seat in the public school classrooms, and thus is improving the public education system as well.
I still think the comparison obtains, "I won't let my kid fight in the army, but I'll donate a little bit extra to the VA to show my support," or "It's okay that I left my wife and kids, I give more than enough money in child-support and alimony to keep them in the comfortable lifestyle to which they've grown accustomed." Contrary to popular belief, public schools need thoughtful parents and their thoughtful children much more than money.
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I think your first comparison is close to what you're trying to say, but really the historical comparison is that during a draft back in the day, at least going back to the Civil War, you could either serve or pay $500. The wealthy families paid the money and went about their day feeling like they contributed to the war effort (and they did). The poor families sent their sons to fight.
The second comparison I think doesn't work. Paying for public school and not going doesn't nearly compare to paying for a family but not being there for them physically or emotionally.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I am someone who struggles with depression and who has been greatly helped by antidepressants in the past, but I disagree with your comparison of antidepressants to insulin. After all, how many people have you heard of taking insulin when then don't need it?
How many people with diabetes refuse to take insulin when there drs prescribe it? Every person I know who is on antidepressents went through a difficult process before being willing to take the pills. They view the pills as the "easy out" and a sign of failure. While I am sure that the drugs are misused, I think comments like Irami's reinforce this shame and can do a lot of harm.
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I can understand that concern, but making misleading statements is not the way to inform people about their importance.
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I guess I am a little confused on what in my statement was misleading. For those who are seriously depressed, taking the drug every day is as important as a diabetic taking insulin.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I am someone who struggles with depression and who has been greatly helped by antidepressants in the past, but I disagree with your comparison of antidepressants to insulin. After all, how many people have you heard of taking insulin when then don't need it?
I don't think that's relevant. Just because there are people who take antidepressants who do not need them does not mean there are not also people who need them as much as a diabetic needs insulin.
(Or what scholar just said.)
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You might say they're different in that insulin replaces a body chemical, while antidepressants act on body chemicals without being a direct replacement. Additionally, the chances of your illness killing you are significantly (but not infinitely) higher if you have diabetes and aren't taking your insulin than if you have depression and aren't taking your antidepressant.
If you like, compare antidepressants instead to my need to take stimulants for narcolepsy. Yes, my body does not have an absolute need for drugs. I can survive without them, but I can't really live. The same is true for many people with depression. And of course, there are some cases where people don't survive when they might have had they gotten good treatment.
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: I guess I am a little confused on what in my statement was misleading. For those who are seriously depressed, taking the drug every day is as important as a diabetic taking insulin.
If you're only talking about the people who need them, you have a point. But we weren't.
The fact that there's an important difference between those who need and those who take insulin vs. antidepressants is why I think using one as an analogy for the other is faulty when you're talking about whether people who use them really need them.
It is not correct to say that people who take antidepressants need them just like people who take insulin need it, precisely because there are people who take it who don't need it.
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Porter, there are people with type 2 diabetes who take insulin who could manage without it -- usually by taking other meds and/or getting their weight and diet under control.
Not every diabetic who takes insulin is the same, any more than every clinically depressed person who takes SSRI's is.
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Because I'm sure people care what I think about depression or anxiety, I think that we still haven't figured out how to live. With technology, money, and expectations mixed in with the more arty and important human virtues, and with all these qualities conflicting, we still haven't figured out how to live. And if you want to check out for a while, or push a little harder, you can go to your local dealer, bartender or doctor, and they'll give you what you need to get through. The world is a bit of a behemoth, and it's easier to take a pill to adjust yourself to the world rather than the other way around.
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I'm not sure someone who comes off as so frequently unhappy and bitter is really suited to telling people in which ways they should strive for happiness.
Wait, that's not true. I'm very sure such a person isn't.
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Hey man, I don't dope up, legal or otherwise, and I think there is something to be said for that. I also think if more people put down the pills, bottles, or needles, and doctors stopped enabling them, our priorities would improve.
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Setting aside that you're grossly under qualified to have an informed opinion about when and under what circumstances individuals should take medication, setting the bar at 'not doping up' (illegally) is pretty stupid.
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Actually, Irami, I think we've done a pretty good job figuring out how to live. Looking back over the course of human history, I see a lot of behavioral improvement which shouldn't be ignored.
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(If by 'dope' you mean misuse legal prescription drugs...)
I don't make a distinction. Nancy Reagan asked me to "Say 'No' to Drugs" when I was in 2nd grade, and it seemed them, as seems now, a fair proposition.
quote:A bipolar dude takes a drug to combat the mood swings; does he 'dope up?'
Quite possibly. Maybe it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have mood swings, and adjust the culture according. If nothing else, it would be one less pressure on the person to fit in.
___ There are enough doctors and drug companies out there such that anyone with the right connections can be diagnosed with any condition they'd like to attain the rainbow of pills they want to get through the day. If we were serious about the War on Drugs, we wouldn't throw people in jail as much as we'd go at the drug companies and doctors perpetuating the culture that whatever problems one has, the answer includes some drug.
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This is an aesthetic judgment and doesn't reduce very well to hard and fast laws, that's why in order to change our drug culture, as well as public school discourse, I think the pressure has to be cultural rather than legal-- aesthetic rather than materially forceful-- because in the end, it's important that people understand and choose not to solve problems with pills and understand that supporting public education means sending their children to public school and choosing to do so. If they are forced to or bribed to do the right thing, I think it degrades the entire business. Then, and this is where a sophisticated understanding of freedom, dignity, and democracy is important, we have to let them make the choice on a case by case basis, even if that means leaving ourselves vulnerable to what we believe to be the error of their ways.
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Of course, not all crutches are pharmocological. Some people rely on accusations of racism and empty pseudo-intellectualism.
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I don't mind your opinion on public schooling. I don't agree, wholly, but I think that support of public schools-- rather than abandonment of them for private schooling-- is needed.
The drug thing you've got wrong. I'd like to see some more discipline from you in supporting your argument. How have you come to your conclusion? Do you have data to support your point of view? Do you have anecdotes to support your view?
I do not believe that taking prescription drugs in order to manage depression, anxiety, or other neurological disorders disrupts any clear-minded, well-intentioned aesthetic. In short, they uplift the quality of the patient's life in quantifiable, measurable ways.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I think it's great when a small adjustment of a drug makes an otherwise disfunctional person functional. But there are a lot of people who even with drugs are still not functional. The idea that everyone can be fixed and turned into a happier, healther, more productive person through the use of pharmaceuticals is a problem. I can see where it relates to the idea that you can make a kid a genius just by spending more money on their education.
But I think the line is somewhere other than where Irami is standing.
Like I used to think it was wrong for women to have painkillers when they are giving birth (having been strongly influence by someone who lived in the days when they were mandatory.) Now I feel like it's important for mothers to be educated and have confidence in their decisions and medical care, and to find acceptance when things don't go the way they may have expected.
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Irami, don't forget your rants against fat people too. We can all aspire to be pure, thin, drug-free ascetic aesthetes! Who choose to go to public schools. And who are riddled with shame. Yes we can!
edit: I added "And who are riddled with shame." in the 10 minute edit window.
quote:We can all aspire to be pure, thin, drug-free ascetic aesthetes! Who choose to go to public schools. Yes we can!
If you replace "thin" with healthier, then you have a movement I can get behind. I fully believe we should cultivate a culture of pure, healthier, drug-free ascetic aesthetes. It beats the heck out of sixteen year-old boys slipping into diabetes and seventeen year old girls on anti-depressant cocktails.
pooka,
quote:Now I feel like it's important for mothers to be educated and have confidence in their decisions and medical care, and to find acceptance when things don't go the way they may have expected.
I agree. There is also a wave of quasi-elective c-sections sweeping the land. There are a host of benefits, but the downside is that we are creating a culture that teaches women that their bodies are unable to handle childbirth. It's a ticklish issue, and there isn't a straightforward answer, but I think we are going to hear a lot about this in the next 25 years.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Way to casually dismiss the crippling difficulties of a lot of people, Irami. If you have never suffered from clinical depression or anxiety, it is extremely easy to dismiss it as no big deal or "mood swings."
A friend of mine lived most of his life remarkably healthy. Never got sick, never got sniffles, had perfect teeth. He had real problems understanding how weak you can feel when you're sick, and he tended to dismiss the sickness of others as laziness. He's changed a bit, as he got older and started having weaknesses of his own, and he became an RN and now sees firsthand what sickness can do.
Yes, many people rely too much on (and many doctors prescribe too many) quick fix pills, but please don't casually dismiss the people who actually need it. Medications for clinical depression and anxiety aren't there to help enforce some sort of societal peer pressure. They're there to give the person back a modicum of control over their own minds.
From reading your posts here and over the years, I get the feeling you live in a world with no shades of gray whatsoever, and frankly it's not one I care to visit.
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(That said, I suspect we still have a lot to learn about the complicity of drug companies to manufacture and then cure conditions, and the endless pressure to use quick and easy -- but expensive -- fixes when a sensible diet and exercise would be better.)
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I "lost" my father for several years as a teenager because of chemical imbalances due to circumstances to which Irami would have probably responded with "Buck up, old chap." And my dad had similar general attitudes about taking drugs for mental illness. There's a great story of him escaping out a third story window, because he didn't think he was nuts (and to be honest, he probably wasn't as nuts as some of the people around him). Yes, my dad actually escaped a mental hospital, movie-land style.
They eventually found some drugs that work. And I am grateful, because not only did I get my father back (not in perfect condition whatever that is, mind you, but more than adequate) but my soon-to-be-born son will have a Jaju that he can visit and love too.
So feel free to not take drugs, legally or otherwise. Just don't start throwing blanket judgments, they're the suffocation hazard of the intellect.
quote:Quite possibly. Maybe it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have mood swings, and adjust the culture according. If nothing else, it would be one less pressure on the person to fit in.
Because, after all, the only reason many bipolar people are unhappy is because of societal pressures.
That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, but then again it's early.
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I think the problem was initially calling the cycling of a person with bi-polar "mood swings." That's like calling a broken leg a charley horse. One of them you can walk off. The other not so much.
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I stick with the simpler and equally accurate, "You're being an idiot, Irami." Although those others are more elegant.
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I could get into this discussion on drugs and mental health, but it's possible I would get more upset than I would wish to- so I'm going to stay out of that part for the moment.
I quite liked Obama's speech though. Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't know how it could work, Irami. I think what you're saying is that if mentally ill people were not under threat of losing their jobs if they don't take medication (not officially, but in the sense that they have to compete with "sane" people for hiring and promotion) then maybe it wouldn't matter so much. The thing is, people don't want to work around the needs of people with problems. The ADA is supposed to prevent discrimination. Do we tell people with no legs "just use fake legs and don't tell anyone you're crippled."
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A sophisticated culture of shame, in the way of cultural expectations of upright, responsible behavior. I don't know why this is so surprising. I think it's more dignified than the current alternative, force of law and setting freedom equal to licentiousness.
Pooka,
It's a drag, right? I don't have a problem lowering the expectations of how many widgets are supposed to be produced by a given employee. I think that means that people would have less stuff and less noise.
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quote:Quite possibly. Maybe it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have mood swings, and adjust the culture according. If nothing else, it would be one less pressure on the person to fit in.
You could switch the topic to hypertension and say that people on blood pressure medication are probably doping up, and that it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have high blood pressure.
And I think I'd find it .. about as absurd.
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But shame is why people don't like going to church. (I actually don't have any problem swapping out high blood pressure for depression in that sentence -- I think beta blockers are a disaster.)
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So what's the point in shame? Your society has to have some reflection of ideals that an aberration from would be the cause for shame.
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To remind people that there better and worse ways to live, and we expect you to think carefully and choose the better.
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But who chooses what's better and what's worse? I guess I should say, I believe that East Asians seem (to me) to have a very honor oriented ethic in their culture. But it comes at a price. I'm not really sure which parts of the culture are a necessary part of the price -- the sexism, for instance. And we're pretty racist as a group.
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quote:But who chooses what's better and what's worse?
The answer emerges in conversation between the individual and the culture's mores. Then the individual summons his/her courage and goes forth, taking the lumps that come along.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But who chooses what's better and what's worse?
The answer emerges in conversation between the individual and the culture's mores. Then the individual summons his/her courage and goes forth, taking the lumps that come along.
Ideally. In reality, it emerges based on the tolerances and predilections of those with the most societal leverage.
quote:A sophisticated culture of shame, in the way of cultural expectations of upright, responsible behavior.
And this is the problem with pseudo-intellectual reformers. The world doesn't work that way. People don't work that way. You'd know that if you had anything to back up what you are saying besides your high opinion of yourself.
You haven't taken the time to learn about the issues you are talking about. It is ignorant, sneering people like you who make it difficult for people who have actual courage, who are actually out there doing things, to accomplish things.
You wield your ignorance like a weapon (You like weapons, which is probably why it ultimately comes down to destruction, not building) but the peopel you're hurting aren't the ones you seem to think.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:It is ignorant, sneering people like you who make it difficult for people who have actual courage, who are actually out there doing things, to accomplish things.
You wield your ignorance like a weapon (You like weapons, which is probably why it ultimately comes down to destruction, not building) but the peopel you're hurting aren't the ones you seem to think.
Please find a more civil way of discussing this topic.
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