posted
A common response to "Why would an all loving god send people to hell?" is "People send themselves to hell by running away from god." Which, (assuming the ultimate choice for the biggest decision of your eternal existence isn't until after God gives you full disclosure...) leads to the question "Who would deliberately choose Hell?"
So imagine you're going about your business today and in the blink of an eye you're standing at the Pearly gates. And God is there. And he doesn't look happy.
God says, "Hey <name>, it's good to see you, but I've got some really bad news... You were killed by a suicide bomber and you picked the wrong religion." You start to protest but God cuts you off. "Hey, who's God here? Me or you? Anyway, as I was saying... You picked the wrong religion. Yeah, it's true, none of you got it completely right but the ones who were the closest were... well... Radical Muslims!
"But don't worry. I am an all loving God and I wouldn't want you to spend the rest of your eternal life in Hell.
"As it happens we have an opening for several Houri. You'll be transformed into a perfectly beautiful woman and you'll serve at the every whim of one of the blessed Martyrs! (One just HAPPENED to arrive at the exact instant you did! Isn't that a coincidence?)
"Anyway, you've got a choice. Do you want to be this martyr's Houri or do you want to go to hell?"
...
Just before you answer "Hell." Jesus falls over laughing from behind a cloud muttering something about how he LOVES April 1st. St Peter remarks that "You should have seen the look on your face."
quote:God says, "Hey <name>, it's good to see you, but I've got some really bad news... You died in a suicide bombing and you picked the wrong religion."
This part confused the heck out of me. It sounded to me that the person who had just died was the suicide bomber, not a victim of a suicide bombing.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:God says, "Hey <name>, it's good to see you, but I've got some really bad news... You died in a suicide bombing and you picked the wrong religion."
This part confused the heck out of me. It sounded to me that the person who had just died was the suicide bomber, not a victim of a suicide bombing.
posted
This is so funny! I'm not sure how I'd respond to it throughout, but I definitely know I wouldn't choose the position as one of the Houri.
I don't think I'd choose Hell either. So I'd stall.
I'd probably choose the "Are you joking?" routine, but this is God I'm dealing with, so I won't push it too far.
I don't really think such a thing would happen once I get to the pearly gates, but Jesus did have a sense of humor...
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posted
I'd ask if I could try both places and see where I'm more comfortable. I tend not to make decisions without knowing what I'm getting in to.
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posted
If it turned out that the real God were indeed the God described in the Bible, I know He'd have to answer some of my questions in a great deal of patient detail before I'd contemplate worshiping Him in any way.
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Me : I choose Hell G: Congrats! You are going to be a Houri who serves the martyr who finished you off.
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No, no, no. If you'd REALLY died, you wouldn't have been able to write out "gak" and "thud," now would you have been able to produce the UBB code to make it dramatic.
Unless...it was foul play! Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Hell.
And then when Jesus reveals that it was an April Fools joke, I ask what in the Bible is true and what isn't.
Depending on the answer, I may still choose Hell.
If you really mean that, part of the answer will include the passages concerning pride.
Would have included smiley faces had I not meant it.
How is my answer prideful? I share Tom's opinion 100%. But then, you probably think he's prideful as well.
A god who, in his own book, does some really horrible things is not high on my list to worship. If worshiping that god is the only way to get to heaven, then I'm in trouble. It's not about choice or pride. I couldn't really worship someone or something that I thought was evil (or partly evil) even if I wanted to.
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posted
Houri. It really doesn't sound too bad. Hell sounds awful.
And I've always wanted to be tall.
One question though before I commit: do I have free will as a houri? How about memory of my life on earth?
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posted
pooka: Yeah, that's why I put the part in about "none of them got it completely right." It wouldn't work without Houris having a soul.
Scott: You'd remember who you were. You'd still be you in your mind. All your desires would remain the same. You'd have *some* free will when not obeying the slightest whim of your master, though you could never leave his presence. You could still feel pain, loss and heartbreak. You will never see your friends and family again.
NewLurker: If you choose heaven, you'll be serving a martyr who arrived at the exact moment you died to a suicide bomber. Do I have to spell it out?
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posted
What's the power structure in Hell like? Do I have to make a choice without being aware of all the possibilities?
So, for example, if all I'm doing in Hell is sitting around being burned alive-- no thanks. You'd be an idiot to choose that over being a houri, no matter what your philosophical/theological leanings are.
But if Hell grants the ability for utter freedom; for conquest and movement and action, including pain and trial, defeat and a victory every once in a while, for eternity...then I'd choose that in a second over having even the nicest suicide bomber for an eternal master.
(Pixiest, from my readings on houri, your apparent depiction of them as merely sex slaves or debased females seems a little off. Indeed, from what I've been able to tell, there's a definite element of equality between a houri and the man to whom she's given. So please-- define what you mean.)
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Scott: Hell would simply be "outside of God's presence." Free will. No fire. But outside creation. You'd be floating in the void forever.
In this story, Houris are just sex slaves.
But yes, being a degraded sex slave would be preferable to being on fire for eternity. I think even the most prideful would come to that conclusion after less than a second of making the wrong choice.
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posted
Basically, if I have to be bored for eternity, I'd still rather be a houri. Presumably, even a celestial lover's going to need some downtime. And honestly, when he finds out I was a dude in my other life, and I still think of myself as a dude now-- how attractive can that be for a martyr who was expecting the supreme virginal experience?
And after a while, I suspect he'll get bored of the whole thing-- maybe we'll talk a bit, and who knows? We could really be soulmates, and not just bedmates.
See, in Heaven-- even in the one that Pixiest laid out-- there's a possibility for a hope for personal happiness. I don't see her Hell offering up anything that attractive.
I dunno. I need more information.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: NewLurker: If you choose heaven, you'll be serving a martyr who arrived at the exact moment you died to a suicide bomber. Do I have to spell it out?
I think that you're misreading NewLurker. Unless I'm misreading them, they're saying that that being forced to be the slave of the person who killed you would be hell, which means that they see the choice being presented to them as being between one hell or another, rather than between heaven and hell.
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Jake: after re-reading, I think you're right. I guess HE has to spell it out =D
Scott: Don't forget, you'll be splitting time with dozens of other Houri. He gets a harem. Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll be into Hot Houri-Houri action.
But yes, even serving the person that killed you would be preferable to floating aimlessly in the void for eternity... Most of the time... (Hopefully he isn't turned on by constant sobbing.)
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Javert: Then the original question of "who would choose hell?" is answered. And the answer is You.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Javert: Then the original question of "who would choose hell?" is answered. And the answer is You.
Guess so. I just have a hard time accepting that someone would choose that horrible heaven you suggest in this hypothetical over floating in nothingness.
Maybe I'm the crazy one.
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quote:Scott: Don't forget, you'll be splitting time with dozens of other Houri. He gets a harem. Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll be into Hot Houri-Houri action.
Don't forget? How could I? You never told me.
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posted
The whole point of Houris is you get like 72 of them. Well, not you, you. The blessed martyrs you.
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Mmmm...is that so? I don't know much about Islam, and in the article on houris on wikipedia, it just said two per man.
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Hell.
And then when Jesus reveals that it was an April Fools joke, I ask what in the Bible is true and what isn't.
Depending on the answer, I may still choose Hell.
If you really mean that, part of the answer will include the passages concerning pride.
Would have included smiley faces had I not meant it.
How is my answer prideful? I share Tom's opinion 100%. But then, you probably think he's prideful as well.
A god who, in his own book, does some really horrible things is not high on my list to worship. If worshiping that god is the only way to get to heaven, then I'm in trouble. It's not about choice or pride. I couldn't really worship someone or something that I thought was evil (or partly evil) even if I wanted to.
All things considered, I myself should have put some smilies in there. From your statement, I presumed what you meant was that you would not humble yourself to worship a god like that, and therefore pay in suffering. There are many passages in the Bible that insist that pride leads to suffering, so I put two and two together and made a semi-joke. I wasn't trying to make a personal statement.
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The two sections below that one kind of downplay that as literal truth, though.
Heathen. Next you're going to be telling me I'm not really going to be 60 cubits high and 7 cubits wide.
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quote:Depending on the answer, I may still choose Hell.
I've heard several people say this, but I can't say I've ever believed it when it's been said. Not if hell is the eternal torment and damnation kind of hell, anyway. That's akin to saying, "I'd never break under torture!"
Unless you're suggesting that it would be impossible, which is a bit different. So, new question, Javert: would you try to worship God, god, gods, or whatever, in an effort to avoid hell? Discount for the sake of argument your certainty that it would be impossible for you do do so.
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quote:That's akin to saying, "I'd never break under torture!"
I don't see how. To me, it seems akin to saying that you wouldn't break under the threat of torture.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Unless you're suggesting that it would be impossible, which is a bit different. So, new question, Javert: would you try to worship God, god, gods, or whatever, in an effort to avoid hell? Discount for the sake of argument your certainty that it would be impossible for you do do so.
In the hypothetical presented in this thread, I would not try to avoid hell. This is because I would view being raped by the person who killed me, in a heaven that viewed his raping of me as a positive, to be worse than floating in nothingness.
Not using this as an example, but your average "you just need to worship god to get to heaven" scenario, I certainly might TRY to worship god and get into heaven.
However in doing so, if I remained who I am now and I continued to have the objections to that particular god that I do now, I would only be putting on a show. I'd be going through the motions out of fear of punishment.
If for some reason that god can't read my mind, or acting out of fear is good enough, I get to go to heaven. But if the god couldn't be placated by just going through the motions, why make a fool of myself by pretending?
Now, if it turns out that this god isn't the literal god of the bible or the koran and is just some benign, deistic god that created us and left us to our own devices? I might be compelled to give that god a little worship for pulling off the whole creation business.
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quote:That's akin to saying, "I'd never break under torture!"
I just want to be clear. If someone was torturing me, I would lie my butt off to get them to stop. I'd tell them I'd worship them, and I'd kiss their feet. But all that time I'd be thinking how horribly evil they are and planning my escape.
Torture, or threat of torture, is not good incentive for actual worship. It creates plenty of fake worship, though.
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quote:Not using this as an example, but your average "you just need to worship god to get to heaven" scenario, I certainly might TRY to worship god and get into heaven.
Part of the thing with this reasoning is that you're taking God's word about the nature of heaven. But God is evil. What's to keep God from lying?
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posted
Sorry Scott. I kinda figured the "72" part would be assumed.
Javert: Given either of these options, I would, of course, choose to no longer exist in any form. Unfortunately, that's not one of the options.
I'm a very reclusive person by nature. I spend almost every moment I can alone or alone with my husband. Still, I recognize the value of company. Even hurtful abusive company. An eternity of void would be even more painful to me than an abusive and enforced relationship with the person who killed me. Besides, eventually he might turn around. And in a few hundred thousand million years I might even consider forgiving him. Maybe.
This is definately a "Would you rather eat a bowl of scabs or swim a river of snot?" question.
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quote:Part of the thing with this reasoning is that you're taking God's word about the nature of heaven. But God is evil. What's to keep God from lying?
Well, it doesn't seem likely that my question isn't going to actually be answered in a straightforward way without all sorts of prevaricating and qualifications and exceptions. I'll try one last time, stating it as bluntly as possible:
Do you believe, Javert (and Mr. Squicky, for that matter) that you would consciously choose hell over heaven even if you could simply lie and say that you worship God, even if you didn't actually have to be sincere about it-either when you said that, or afterwards-and even if the only pain involved for you personally for doing so would be 'knuckling under' to God, as opposed to being in Hell forever?
I am asking how far you think your convictions about God's wickedness or how wrong it would be to worship God would go if ever faced with consequences for it in the (mythical, if you like) afterlife.
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posted
Indeed. There is a fair chance I would lie to avoid Santa Claus's naughty list, in the similarly probable chance that there really is a Santa Claus and I meet him standing in front of my fireplace Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:That's akin to saying, "I'd never break under torture!"
I just want to be clear. If someone was torturing me, I would lie my butt off to get them to stop. I'd tell them I'd worship them, and I'd kiss their feet. But all that time I'd be thinking how horribly evil they are and planning my escape.
Torture, or threat of torture, is not good incentive for actual worship. It creates plenty of fake worship, though.
"Help! I'm a prisoner in paradise! I'm bound in heaven! Get me out!"
If you really think God is like that, I don't blame you for hating him.
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: "Help! I'm a prisoner in paradise! I'm bound in heaven! Get me out!"
If you really think God is like that, I don't blame you for hating him.
Oh yeah. Completely ignore the "I'll send you some place that will torture you forever if you don't love me" part.
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