quote:But speechifying politicians talk a LOT about how great America is because we're the ultimate exercise in the last few hundred years in building communities. We're the bastard child of the world when it comes to absorbing different cultures, and we've done VERY well at it...so long as they were varying white cultures.
It should be noted that a lot of those cultures weren't considered white at all when they first came over here.
I have every hope that we will continue to absorb and fully incorporate cultures which we seem to be going to such great lengths to alienate.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: We must know very different Asian people.
(Which, given I'm from Hawaii and you're, IIRC, from Canada, doesn't surprise me!)
That is quite possible. Despite the title of "Asian", the intended demographic of the article appears to me to be a schizophrenic mix of either CBC (or I guess ABC) stereotypes in areas with decently large Chinese populations and HK (or to a lesser extent Taiwanese) FOBs.
I can quickly think of certain stereotypical demographics that would not be covered, say Chinese Christians which in my experience would often turn some of those sterotypes right around.
<Insert mandatory comment how sterotypes always have exceptions either way>
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: A few year back this would have been called "stuff yuppies like" ... What make this site edgy is that it equates that particular demographic with "white people". That makes it racist because most white people don't fit in that demographic and not all people in that demographic are white.
For better or for worse, this kind of thing dates back to at least 2001* This brand of self-depreciating humour definitely makes the rounds in my university community which has both a large Asian and white contingent. Personally, I don't think its all that bad. Its actually part of the healing process to be able to identify sterotypes, both positive and negative and be able to laugh at them. Better to put all this stuff out on the table for discussion rather than keep it all bottled up.
Granted, this kind of humour is not particularly high-brow and can be offensive in the wrong hands, but it does not seem to be the case here.
* As historical evidence, consider this article from my university in 2001:
quote: White Like Us Have you kissed your white lately?
University of Waterloo is well known for its diversity. Therefore, mathNEWS has embarked on a quest to find the stereotypical Caucasian individual. After interviewing and surveying a large number of students, we have selected the three whitest students in the university.
...
Kenneth Chung Hi. How's it going? Yeah. I'm pretty white. Well, I've been white since I first moved to my hometown in the boondocks. I can prove that I'm white. Here's a list of personal information that proves it.
* I've been to a square dance. * I've tipped a cow. * I've curled. * Pete Love speaks more Chinese than I do. * I don't own a pair of chopsticks and I've used the rice cooker less than both my housemates. * My favourite food is poutine. * I don't drink Canadian or Blue. * My favourite song is What's the D-d-d-dillio? by Mest. * I want to live in a small town. * My idea of a good time is dirting it around town. * I know the definition of "keelers." * Most of my friends from back home are pregnant.
(For those missing context, the source of the humour is that Asians so dominate the math faculty here that the "whitest" people are Asians born in Canada)
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I think it's interesting how we all seem make the mental leap from "stuff white people like" to something closer to one of the following: -Stuff ALL white people like -Stuff ONLY white people like
Because, really, the only reason to be offended or disturbed by the observation that white people like certain things is if that leap is made.
I believe the site authors intend for us to make that leap. I also believe they deliberately leave it to the reader to make that leap, and quietly chuckle to themselves about it. But when it comes down to it, it's the reader who takes a broad generalization and makes it an encompassing one, and then makes the choice to find it amusing, offensive, or anything in between.
I think it's healthy for the least-discriminated-against, least-disadvantaged group - if you can find a way to define that group, and I think "white people" is a fair way to do so - to get a little fun poked at it. I don't think it's divisive or likely to incite any discrimination. If I did find that likely, then I'd be bothered by it. As it is, I just think it's funny.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Here's an interesting opinion pieces that echoes some of the observations and terms used here:
quote: By "white people," Lander doesn't actually mean the more than 221 million Americans who check that box on the decennial census. But that's part of the fun. Lander is doing to whites what scores of journalists and politicians do to non-white minorities every day, "essentializing" complex identities -- that is, stripping away all variety and reducing them to their presumed authentic essences.
One irony-deficient reader complained that the blog was less about white people than it was about yuppies. And without knowing it, she was cutting to the heart of the joke. Lander is gently making fun of the many progressive, educated, upper-middle-class whites who think they are beyond ethnicity or collectively shared tastes, styles or outlook. He's essentially reminding them that they too are part of a group.
"I'm writing about the white people who think they're absolutely unique and individual," Lander told me. "I'm calling them out and poking fun of myself. The things I post are all the things I like too!"
And what are those things? Recycling, expensive sandwiches, standing still at concerts, Toyota Priuses, natural medicine, irony, public radio, breakfast places, vegetarianism, organic foods and being an expert on ethnic cultures are just a few.
Lander thinks that most of his readers are actually members of the elite group he's lampooning. Some of the comments on the blog suggest that he's right. "Oh, lord, it only hurts because it's true! Love the blog," one reader who calls herself White Lady wrote. But others are more perplexed. Responding to a blog entry claiming that white people like Sarah Silverman, MC wrote, "I'm white and I HATE Sarah Silverman (and would take Monique ... ANYDAY, so there.") Still another offended and anonymous reader listed a lot of racist stereotypes about blacks, Mexicans, Arabs, Jews and Chinese to even the score.
posted
scifibum, What is the point of putting the adjective "white" in the sentence if it is not to imply that the sentence pertains to at least most people who are white and that it is more likely to apply to people who are white than those who are not.
If I made a list of stuff "subaru owners like", it wouldn't be a leap to conclude that I thought many subaru owners had more things in common with each other, beyond subaru ownership, than they had with people at large and that my list had an accurate summary of things subaru owners were likely to have in common.
And while I have no problem in general with poking fun at groups or individuals who are advantaged, the problem I have with this list is that it equates "white" with "younger upper middle class urban professionals".
Since even by a generous definition, the upper middle class constitutes less than 10% of the population and non-Hispanic whites make up ~65% of the population its extremely inaccurate to imply most whites are likely to have things on this list in common.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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The Rabbit, the point is definitely for people to infer "all" or "only". It's still a leap though, IMO. It's one we're conditioned to make because we're on guard against racial stereotyping (and other politically incorrect faux pas*).
I agree with you that it's also meant to make the blog edgy. It's playing with our sense of political correctness. I think it's significant that the yuppies most accurately described by the blog might also be more attuned to political correctness than white people in general. There I go with my own stereotype.
Disclosure: I like a lot of that stuff, I'm white, I'm not urban, and not affluent.
(*What's the plural of "faux pas"?)
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Here's the 88 ways to know you're chinese that my sister sent me a couple of years ago. I have a theory that several white people, mostly Porter, will check off more of these than I have.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Except for the ones about being extremely frugal, the only ones that applied to me were learning a musical instrument, learning a martial art, and studying engineering.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Right No wonder I didn't even look half chinese to you.
Also, looking over this list, I'm remembering that my sister only sent it to 4 of our 8 siblings. Some of them are kind of offensive. Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Here is anecdotal evidence of the change in Tribalism in the US.
When my wife's Grandmother married my wife's Grandfather, there was a family feud started that still lingers in some sections of the Italian "Hill" area of St. Louis. My wife's Grandmother's family immigrated from Northern Italy. My wife's Grandfather's family immigrated from Sicily. Such a mixed marriage was devastating. Threats were made and violence almost erupted at the wedding.
When my wife's Mother married my wife's Father there was some snickering. She was a good Catholic, and he was a Protestant. While it was not considered a good or proper match, the level of unhappiness in the family was kept politely hidden.
When I married my wife her family was thrilled to have another good man in the family. I never heard a bad word or comment from anyone in regards to my religion--not even Christian, nor my racial background--a European mix, with Jewish roots.
Communities are built by us Humans, it just takes time.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: (Pooka's link) >64. When you're sick, your parents tell you not to eat fried foods or baked >goods due to "yeet hay". > >65. You know what yeet hay is.
posted
talsmitde, would it matter if I wasn't born in northern delaware, but that I grew up there, married a historian, is lds, loves to read osc, would that be close enough to *your* community? If so, hiya!
Posts: 315 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Here's the 88 ways to know you're chinese that my sister sent me a couple of years ago. I have a theory that several white people, mostly Porter, will check off more of these than I have.
Wow. I must be Chinese as I do some of that stuff. Especially yelling Ai-yah when I'm frustrated and Wah as well. And I look about 18 too.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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"The Target Corporation (TGT) has purchased the popular blog “Stuff White People Like”
Oh dear.
*wipes tear from eye*
A close friend from childhood married this girl (who hates the crap out of me, but that's another story) who takes him to Target, walks around for hours, sort of waiting for something to catch her eye. I don't think I've ever seen her wear anything that wasn't bought at the Gap. When I read that, I thought of her. I just about hate her. That's cool, though. I knew him before we liked girls, and he'll still be my bro whether or not they ever split. I win.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: (Pooka's link) >64. When you're sick, your parents tell you not to eat fried foods or baked >goods due to "yeet hay". > >65. You know what yeet hay is.
Heh.
So, is it forbidden to share what "yeet hay" is? Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:What is the point of putting the adjective "white" in the sentence if it is not to imply that the sentence pertains to at least most people who are white and that it is more likely to apply to people who are white than those who are not.
The quote that Mucus managed to post right before you sums it up perfectly.
quote:For better or for worse, this kind of thing dates back to at least 2001*
quote:The funniest one to me was you don't take the protective film off electronic devices.
I love it when people do that. It's so hilariously pointless.
It's a way of amplifying superficial damage to 'protect' it from superficial damage.
What I find more hilarious is people who take off the protective film, then go out and buy screen protectors.Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
According to the list, I'm not white, which completely bears out my own feelings. I've been checking "mixed" on race questions for years. My friend who's black, however, IS white.
(I think everyone is actually mixed. And scientifically, I don't think race has any meaning at all. I think it's purely a social construct, in fact. If it weren't for how differently people perceived to be different races are treated in public places, the question wouldn't even exist as a discussion point. I'll be so glad when we finally put it behind us.)
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I share the same perspective, Tatiana. We shouldn't make prejudices based on what people look like, because it really doesn't matter if people decide not to make it matter to them.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: ... I've been checking "mixed" on race questions for years. My friend who's black, however, IS white. ... I don't think race has any meaning at all. I think it's purely a social construct, in fact.
quote: Lander is gently making fun of the many progressive, educated, upper-middle-class whites who think they are beyond ethnicity or collectively shared tastes, styles or outlook. He's essentially reminding them that they too are part of a group.
You also fit *at least* one of the features in that list, "#14 Having Black Friends"
But seriously, as long as people think its relevant, it may be a social construct (I don't necessarily agree, but we can for the sake of discussion) but its still a very important one to be aware of. I'll note that right after you mentioned that you always checked "mixed" you referred to a "black friend," which is a racial categorization.
I also find myself thinking about and will gently echo Tom thoughts here. link
I've come across the idea that race is just a social construct and it will go away if everyone just treats each other *who looks* the same. I still don't buy it. However, this is probably easier when you're some variety of white in a majority-white country. If you're not of the majority skin colour, I think you'll find that race is still very relevant. The other problem is that often people *aren't* just talking about how people look like when they mention race. They often refer to an ill-defined grab-bag of ethnicity, culture, language, and reasoning. As long as these things exist, there will always be *some* term that will be needed to help us distinguish between them, and I do not anticipate that changing for at least hundreds of years.
Consider the illegal immigrant issue and the "we don't want our children to speak Spanish" sentiment and the Obama issue with "we don't want prayer mats in the White House" sentiment. Now you can break that out into language, cultural, and religious issues but most people do not think that way. When people do racial profiling, they "know" what a Muslim looks like and the "Muslim" group is loosely associated with the "Arab" group because let's face it, they are highly correlated. Consider also the rise of the term "islamophobia" and accusations of "racism." The two should be different issues, but many people confuse the two.
No, the race concept *may* be a social construct, but its not going away. It doesn't go away when the majority of the country is white and you only have to "tolerate" scattered in-offensive assimilated minority groups around the country. It doesn't go away when the country has to deal with a large number of immigrants who refuse to assimilate.
It may go away when the number of real "mixed" people grow to a majority of the population, but given the cultural, language, social-economic factors that are often conflated with race and the sheer number of people in countries such as China and India who show little signs of interbreeding, I don't think the ideas behind the terms "race", "ethnicity", "waiguo ren", "gwei lo" whatever you want to call it, are going to go away for hundreds of years at least.
quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: I share the same perspective, Tatiana. We shouldn't make prejudices based on what people look like, because it really doesn't matter if people decide not to make it matter to them.
posted
yeet hay It's like it will reverse the polarity of your accupuncture meridians in a non-beneficial way, or something.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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While in some ways race as a social construct is true, there are some genes that are more predominant in groups from certain locations. For example, Ashkenazi Jewish may not be as concerned about sickle cell, but should be concerned about Tay-Sachs disease.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I like to think of myself as a Black Man who completely breaks stereotypes by acting white and also by having no dark pigmentation.
It's quite liberating, especially since I only get the benefits of my Blackness, with none of the negative stereotypes. This year I might try thinking of myself as the good things about Chinese too, in honor of the Olympics. Not the oppressing Tibet part though.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: yeet hay It's like it will reverse the polarity of your accupuncture meridians in a non-beneficial way, or something.
Erm, AFAIK (and not contradicted by that link) "yeet hay" has very little to do with accupuncture and meridians, aside from the fact that both come from Chinese traditions.
(What follows may sound silly, but I will gently remind the audience that one person's silly supersition is another person's truth. i.e. people in glass houses shouldn't throw Bibles)
"yeet hay" is at its core just an mixture of ideas such as balance (ex: yin/yang), the proverb "you are what you eat", and Chinese herbal medicine.
Briefly, if you eat spicy foods (yeet hay) or certain foods containing spices your system will go out of balance and you will need to eat some non-spicy foods to balance that out. Go too far and you have the reverse problem.
Personally, most of it probably is the placebo effect. But with the great variety of Chinese herbs that can be used, I have no doubts that some may have been picked that have active ingredients of some sort and that by sheer trial and error, they happen to be used in an effective manner. The problem is without scientific rigour, there is no way to tell which is which.
No, the reason that I was amused was not the idea, but the high probability that that item in the list immediately raised my probability estimate of the author either being a Cantonese FOB or CBC/ABC. I think Mandarin people have an analogous term, it may even sound similar, but they usually place less emphasis on concepts such as "yeet hay", "feng shui", etc.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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They seem related to me, but maybe I'm playing fast and loose with the Zang Fu. "reversing the polarity" was tongue in cheek, though. Somewhat. I mean, that would kill you.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I'm not so quick to dismiss a social contruct as merely a social construct. Marriage, art, justice, and beauty either are or are parasitic upon social constructs. America is a social construct, and I think a rich experience of life is more than what gives itself to the sort of empiricism that brands cultural identity and political disposition with regard to race, a mere social construct.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:What is the point of putting the adjective "white" in the sentence if it is not to imply that the sentence pertains to at least most people who are white and that it is more likely to apply to people who are white than those who are not.
Because it is using white not as a racial/genetic background category but rather as an ethnic category. It is a play on the whole idea of ethnic studies (and white studies has recently become a growing topic of interest in that field).
It's similar to when someone says "I'm so white" or "I'm such a white guy" when confessing to liking a particular thing and/or acknowledging the lack of understanding or capability with a certain thing.
It also comes out of the use of the word "white" by American stand up comics (especially but not limited to African American comics).
But of course the irony of such essentializing of making such admissions of whiteness (as Lander seems also to understand) is that it's a way to both participate in and invalidate ethnic constructs, to be both ironic and sincere and dismissive and to assert power through self-deprecation.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Because it is using white not as a racial/genetic background category but rather as an ethnic category. It is a play on the whole idea of ethnic studies (and white studies has recently become a growing topic of interest in that field).
Your begging the question, why identify that ethnic group as "white"?
My original question was in response to the claim that its a "leap" from saying "things white people like" to saying "things all white people like". I categorically disagree. If this site had identified this ethnic group in some other way, the site might be funny but it wouldn't be edgy or new worthy.
The thing that makes this site both humorous and offensive is the conflagration of a racial feature (white skin) with cultural features which are neither exclusively white nor shared by the majority of white people.
Most everything said on this site is tongue in cheek. It pokes fun not just at the ethnic group in question but at racial stereotypes in general. Its a joke that is nonetheless trying to make a some serious social commentary. None of that is in question.
What is in question is whether one is making a leap the authors did not intend when they used the phrase "white people".
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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The authors of the site are white, I think. That makes me a little uncomfortable - the mocking congratulation is a little too close to real self-congratulation.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:What is in question is whether one is making a leap the authors did not intend when they used the phrase "white people".
Since you were initially responding to me, let me clarify (again) that I think the author(s) absolutely DID intend for people to make the leap. I don't think that's in question.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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scifibum, I just disagree that "leap" is even the right word. Perhaps "all white" people is stretching the point but it isn't a stretch at all when one says "white people like X", to understand that to mean the overwhelming majority of white people.
And unfortunately, the vast majority of white people in America aren't in the ethnic group they are describing.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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To see how true it is, you have to remember that there are many subsets of White People, and those who don't fit in the first category may fall under one of the denominations:
Of course, I take no responsibility for the offensiveness of any of those sites. This is Hatrack after all Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: I share the same perspective, Tatiana. We shouldn't make prejudices based on what people look like, because it really doesn't matter if people decide not to make it matter to them.
jokes != prejudices
Unless the jokes are about non-white people. Then they are bigoted.
posted
? I actually was the one that brought up the link to "Stuff Asian People Like" and found it amusing, same with the 88 (rather pooka brought that one up and found it amusing).
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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"I like to think of myself as a Black Man who completely breaks stereotypes by acting white and also by having no dark pigmentation.
It's quite liberating, especially since I only get the benefits of my Blackness, with none of the negative stereotypes. This year I might try thinking of myself as the good things about Chinese too, in honor of the Olympics. Not the oppressing Tibet part though.?
My very pale, totally Caucasian friend Trevor used to pretend to be the "Albino Aborigine: Black Man in Disguise" when he was little. I only found out about this recently.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Your begging the question, why identify that ethnic group as "white"?
Because they are the antithesis of "black" (and that's black in quotes because what that really means is a certain stereotypical type of African-American culture).
Mind you, I'm not begging the question as I have major qualms about the use of the category, but in my experience there is an undeniably cultural aspect to it. To put it bluntly -- the other types of white people don't really matter in this type of cultural posturing.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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OK, white people of Hatrack, we've installed a new hood/vent thing over our stove and my husband wants to leave the protective film on, which is blue, to show that it is new. Does this reasonate with anyone or is this hill worth dying on?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
This seems like a strange thread for that question, but since you asked...
I think leaving the protective film on would be tacky. It looks new because it is new. If he wanted to leave the film on to protect the hood (and thus keep it looking new longer???), I could maybe understand it, but just to show that it's new? That seems odd to me.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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The pre-amble of these discussions always seem to be where people feel so free to share their ignorance and intolerance with a "who me?" shrug. I was glad that got nowhere.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: OK, white people of Hatrack, we've installed a new hood/vent thing over our stove and my husband wants to leave the protective film on, which is blue, to show that it is new. Does this reasonate with anyone or is this hill worth dying on?
I'm only borderline white, but I'd leave it on. My reasoning would be something like: "if I leave this on it will last longer, and the hood will less likely need to be replaced when/if I sell the house." I would not leave it on to showcase that it is new.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Protective film, in white culture, is associated with age and infirmity. Also, it is generally considered trashy. My grandparents would cover their TV remotes in plastic wrap. The idea was that the wrap could be changed, and the remotes didn't need cleaning. The reality was that they never changed the wrapping, and so the faustian bargain of plastic protection payed off with a greezy, disgusting thing you had to hold in your hand. The suggestion that one might do better with cleaning the thing when it needed it was met with open derision. They were, in their minds, quite innovative.
They were the kind of poor that inflicts harm on itself in an attempt to be sensible. They also watched Jerry Faldwell. That may be a white thing.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Going back to an earlier post, I once had a list of ways to know if you are from Minnesota. One of the ways to know was whether you had worn shorts and a parka at the same time.
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