posted
I need to gather some opinions on the pros and cons of online classes.
So, if you wouldn't mind just telling me what you think, and if you really wouldn't mind - if I use your comment in my discussion I will email you and get your contact info and your permission. You need only give your name and email address, I'm not going to stalk you in real life or anything.
And because I know it's annoying for people to ask for opinions without giving their own, I won't do that.
I think online college classes are a necessity now. Schools have to offer them to be competitive. I also think how beneficial they are and how much students get out of an online class is going to vary widely depending on the instructor and the student. (not that it is any different in a traditional class, but it's more exaggerated in online format).
The convenience of an asynchronous class is essential for people like me who have lots of other commitments and need the opportunity to work on classwork at 10 at night when my kids are in bed. But for some people I've talked to, they have trouble with the requisite self-motivation. They forget about assignments, or don't remember to check the class message board, and it leads to them missing assignments and not doing well.
I find when I take online classes that I really need to check them every day, in other words, I need to think about the class at least once a day, even if all I do is check for new messages and then sign off if there are none.
I have found in my experience that grading is at least as harsh if not tougher in the online classes. I have not found them to be "easy" in that regard.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
My dad actually teaches for two major Online Universities. It seems to be a great way for him to make some not-so-insignificant money on the side.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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I think grading is going to seem harsher in an online class, if not more fair, because you are presenting yourself entirely in text. You can't sit on the front row and laugh gratuitously at the professor's witty remarks.
I haven't actually taken an online class, but I'm counting on them for getting my nursing prerequisites going.
I guess one question I have is how do they know that the person sending the feedback is really the student? I guess that was always a risk, in college. Surely that story has been done, though I don't remember seeing it. A ghost student takes classes for someone, either a drunken frat boy or a brilliant 9 year old...
Sorry, not what you were interested in, I know.
I took a course by mail once (that's how I learned tax prep), and I did well at first, but about mid course things got crazy and it was not as easy to stay on task. I got everything done before the deadline, though. I think more periodic deadlines could really help procrastinators like myself.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I have never taken one, but I help students register for them (and then drop them when they have problems ).
IMO, they work really well for students who are self-motivated and who can stay on top of their schedule. The ones we have you can usually get away with only checking 2-3 times a week, although the better students probably check every day. The issue I see the most is students who let the class slide (since after all there is no specific class time, and so their regular classes' work takes priority) for a week or two (or more), and then suddenly wake up and realize how behind they are. Too many just give up and drop the class (or give up and get an F).
I also have found that some instructors are better than others at responding to student email, and that this single difference makes an absolutely tremendous difference in student success, satisfaction, and grades.
We get lots of requests for online classes -- for students whose job/family schedules make accommodating classes difficult; for students wanting classes not offered at our campus (the online classes are through our campus and several others); for students with a far commute; and for the occasional student who thinks it will be easier (they usually end up dropping when they find out they are wrong). We have a policy limiting who can take them and how many; we consider online classes an addition to traditional classes, not a replacement (we don't allow students to solely take online classes).
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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thank you everyone - please keep it coming, I'm interested in both positive and negative comments.
One professor I've talked to said it's really more time-consuming for him than a traditional class - he has to read all those comments, and has to answer multiple emails when in a traditional class a question might only be asked once and answered for all, etc. He does say, however, that he thinks the university will have to offer more and more because students want them.
I think you are absolutely right, rivka, in that a professor who responds to email quickly and effectively makes a huge difference.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I'm assuming you're talking about online college classes, and not online high school classes.
I've taken six online courses; unfortunately, I'm a poor source for comparison because I wasn't taking ordinary classes concurrently and my study habits and lifestyle changed so dramatically since the last time I took an ordinary class that I can't be sure whether to attribute the differences & observations to the online nature of the class, a different school or the lifestyle changes.
With that in mind: I found online classes significantly easier. For several, all of the course work, tests and final were online and available starting on the first day, and I completed and aced the class in the first week. The coursework & tasks often seemed very limited by the medium, but that might be attributable to the teachers not really knowing how to handle an online class. I was also taking liberal arts courses - philosophy, logic, creative writing, literature.
I found all online classes with a "participation" component to be silly, since the participation was worthless. I also found that my classmates were either much smarter than normal or much stupider than normal; not inbetween.
I'm still uncertain about online high school. There's such a huge socialization component to high school that I'm hesitant to offer a substitute that doesn't include it. I appreciate that it likely allows students who wouldn't otherwise get a diploma to do so, but I'm worried about the potential for overuse, misuse and abuse.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: One professor I've talked to said it's really more time-consuming for him than a traditional class - he has to read all those comments, and has to answer multiple emails when in a traditional class a question might only be asked once and answered for all, etc.
Tsk! He needs to keep a list of questions and answers he tends to get, and cut-and-paste.
From talking to instructors, I would say it most often takes more time than a regular class the first time (or two) of giving it, and less time thereafter.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I am enrolled in an online degree program with Western Governors University (online-only school). However, most of my study is probably better characterized as "independent study" instead of "online classes" - usually there is no teacher, and assessments are done through an objective test or through a third party contractor.
I did do one "online class" with an instructor, so far. It was a basic introduction to computer hardware in preparation for the CompTIA A+ certification exam.
In my opinion the "class" was terrible. It was a compromise between in-person classes and independent study, and as a result failed to be an effective substitute for either. The teacher's job was to answer questions via message board, the course content was already written and online so there was no active presentation of it.
Some of the specific problems: 1. The class was on a set schedule, with lessons only unlocked for access at set intervals. This is an artificial constraint on the pace of learning, which was entirely unnecessary.
1.a. If I have a textbook, I can read the whole thing as fast as I want to. Why restrict this because the class is online?
1.b. The teacher probably didn't want to have to answer questions (see #2) about all the lessons at once. However, the teacher is free to set a schedule for answering questions about specific lessons without forcing students to wait to read the lesson.
2. The teacher's role was reduced to answering clarifying questions. If I don't have any questions, I don't interact with the teacher at all, therefore the presence of the teacher is unnecessary.
2.a. Online resources abound for asking questions about technical topics or simply researching and finding an answer. If I have a question about the *subject matter* then I don't need a teacher in order to find an answer, since we've already agreed that this will be online. (This is at least true for the basic/common subject for the class I took.) If I have a question about the *online class* in terms of procedure or expectations, well those questions are an artificial result of forcing online learning into a "class" format.
I think it's generally better to use online resources and independent study without a teacher or class schedule at all. If a teacher is needed, the hybrid format is poorly suited to meet those needs, at least for entry level classes. A "virtual classroom" where there is real time presentation and interaction between students and teachers might work better, although I don't think I would personally find it useful, as long as high quality online resources are available.
Redundant summation: 1. Teachers are useful if they interact a lot with the students *on the subject matter*, and not otherwise. Teacher-student interaction that is forced due to artificial constraints on the process, or poor quality of learning resources, is lame. 2. Independent, self paced study is better than structured, partially independent study oriented to the schedule of a "teacher".
I should add that any profs who are answering questions individually via email instead of posting Q&A to a message board ought to get a clue. If it works better to answer questions out loud in a classroom so everyone can hear, well do the same thing online.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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To date I've taken one graduate-level engineering class online while working a full-time job and here's my thoughts:
1) The availability of these classes is near-critical in many situations. There is a significant population within the engineering community (for example) who don't have the time to take out for class during the day (and/or commute to class even at night) and yet want to further their education. With the availability of these types of classes I can at least consider working on a masters degree in my spare time whereas this option would not be present if I would have to physically attend classes.
2) The flexibility in schedules is critical for a professional (not only am I not forced to drive into a campus that I may not live near, but I can view the classes whenever I want). If you have conflicts on a given night you can generally post-pone watching lecture till later in the week. This is particularly important for those who may be required to travel on a regular basis, or may not have a set regular schedule (i.e. I may be able to get away from work at 4:00 one day, but not until 7 or 8 on another).
3) For most people these classes will be inherently less effective than a typical class. There is less opportunity for real-time questions to be answered. There is less opportunity for interaction and class participation. There is less possibility for the lecturer to pick up on the class' general mood/interest level. In a normal university class you may be called on during lecture, you can ask any question that comes to mind the moment it comes to mind and the lecturer can potentially tell by the glazed over stares or furrowed brows in the room when he/she is going too fast or slow etc. Essentially the response time is slower and the interactions are sharply limited (which is often how people best absorb new information).
4) The social interaction is almost entirely exempt. In a normal university setting there are at least three purposes to attending class: a) Learning the course material b) Networking with peers (both meeting the students, and working with them to better understand the course material) c) Networking with established professionals in the field.
Unfortunately online courses really only allow for A to happen. Any interaction with other students and the professor tends to be very limited, impersonal and quickly forgotten. Not only are possibilities for study groups and the like cut down, but the more casual interactions of overhearing other student's comments/concerns are also eliminated.
5) Distraction/Motivation is a significant problem. As mentioned by others, self-motivation is a must in any classes that are as free-form as online courses tend to be. While it is a blessing that I can watch my lecture any day of the week, I do have to watch it at some point, and not get so far behind that it affects my ability to meet homework deadlines, tests etc. Additionally, even when you are motivated to do the work and watch the class, there can be significant issues with distraction. Sitting at home is intrinsically more distracting from lecture than being confined in a lecture hall. At home I am going to be sorely tempted to check my email, fix dinner, watch tv, talk to a roomate, answer the phone etc etc while watching lecture. While the freedom to multitask is nice it also tends to detract from how well you absorb the information.
So basically it's great and it's terrible at the same time. imo.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I've taken several online classes. One was freshman English, one was a religion class, and one was macroeconomics. I was very happy with the online format. These are the sorts of classes that are large, so I'm unlikely to interact with people. I'm self-directed enough that it wasn't a problem to do assignments, although it was no different from a regular class, really. We had assignments every week and deadlines.
I think the biggest upside is the flexibility and convenience. Much of the time, I find that the lecture doesn't add much value to learning the material, so I really like that I don't have a particular block of time unavailable for doing other things because I have to go to class. I like not having to sit through a lecture that's mostly the professor telling me what's in the book. I can get that information by reading the book, and it will be much faster. One of the classes I took was during the summer, so I wasn't even in the same state as my school at the time.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I haven't taken an online class. The department I taught in at the University of Utah offered Thermodynamics as both an online course and a regular course (large section of ~ 150 students) for several years. The performance of students in the online course was consistently and significantly lower than in the regular course. We decided to drop the online course last year. After evaluating all the data we decided we were doing the students a disservice in offering the online course since they were not able to learn the material as well as the students who were attending live lectures.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I enrolled in many online classes when I was working on my Associates Degree. There were some that were quite difficult due to the teachers' hands-off approach (not answering e-mail being the most annoying factor ), but most were quite easy to progress in, if I had the motivation. The classwork wasn't often easy, but the schedule allowed me the flexibility that I wouldn't have otherwise had.
It is very important to pay attention to deadlines because there is no physical classroom to show up at when things need done, so certain dates and times need to be known by heart. I agree with rivka. They work best for highly motivated and attentive people.
There are times when being able to meet with an instructor would be beneficial. I would suggest classes that involve science and a lot of teamwork be done in a classroom, Math and writing can easily be done online.
Remember your schedule! I had a six-week Microsoft Office class that was completely overtaken by another, much more demanding class. I forgot the schedule for my MS Office class and missed the midterm, guaranteeing a failure. I had to drop. But I passed in the next quarter.
I loved my online classes. I suggest everyone take at least one because that experience will help in the future, and not just in the class that was taken. It helps some people just to get over technophobia, and others to become more proficient in using computers to make a better life.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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I'm currently taking my eleventh on-line class, so I've had a decent bit of experience with them.
From what I can tell, the quality and effectiveness of each class varies greatly depending on the subject, supplemental course content, features (like chat, email, discussion forums, etc.), ease of navigation within the on-line course, and the quality of participation from the instructor. That last one is a big one for me. I think I would have had a much easier time with Physics, for example, had the professor been more available and willing to offer assistance (then again, I also probably should have taken that into account before I signed up for the course, but there you go). On the other hand, I owe a lot of my success and subsequent interest in Philosophy to an instructor that genuinely seemed to care that his students learned and understood the material. And then there are courses like Calculus, American Government, and English 1101/2 where I was thankful to just be left alone to breeze through the work at my own pace.
On-line classes also require a lot of self-discipline and motivation. It's nearly impossible to catch up in most classes if you fall more than a week or two behind, and if you're the type that finds reading to be a chore, then it's definitely not the right choice for you.
quote: I find when I take online classes that I really need to check them every day, in other words, I need to think about the class at least once a day, even if all I do is check for new messages and then sign off if there are none.
This is me as well. It also means I'm a basket case for most of the semester, especially when I'm taking four classes and working full-time. I just have to keep reminding myself that I've gotten through it before and there's no reason I can't do it again.
quote: I found all online classes with a "participation" component to be silly, since the participation was worthless. I also found that my classmates were either much smarter than normal or much stupider than normal; not inbetween.
I agree with this for the most part, particularly with that last bit. However, there were some classes, like philosophy, that I think benefited from having in depth discussions that could be referenced at any time.
posted
My master's degree was about 75% online and I currently provide technical support for a 100% online master's program as a graduate assistant as well as teaching online undergraduate courses some semesters so I've got a little experience with the online thing
I have three main thoughts about online education
1) It isn't for everyone, but for those whose learning style it fits, it can be an excellent experience.
2) Teaching and delivery of an effective online course is NOT like a regular lecture course. Many instructors think they can just post their powerpoints, have discussion boards and weekly quizzes and voila! class online.... no no... I've taken amazing, interactive, social courses online and I have taken dry, busywork classes. I've taught both as well. People who have negative experiences with online classes generally have had an instructor who sees online classes as a "class in a box" and not as something that will require an immense amount of additional time.
3) Online classes are just as, if not more, time consuming for both students and instructors. In my experience (and research shows as well- look at some research from Educause...) that instructors and students spend much more "time on task" in online courses. Universities often think that you can just as easily teach 20 or 60 students in an online course- my stars it takes HOURS to grade, e-mail, give quality feedback, ensure interaction,etc. I've taught both large and small courses online and there is a huge difference in the quality of the course when size is limited (or the instructor has enough support via grad assistants).
Many students begin in our program thinking that online classes will be easier- in our program they are far from easier- this program is known for the rigor they demand from their online students (in fact, most of the face-to-face students in other components who take some of those classes will wait until a f2f class is offered because it will be easier).
Instructors have to have knowledge or support of quality online course design. Courses have to be clear, navigable, etc. There's a program through the University of Maryland called Quality Matters that provides a great rubric for online courses to be peer reviewed. This is a new area of teaching and well honestly, just because it works f2f doesn't mean it's effective online.
Building community is essential in an online program- my current research project is looking at innovative methods and techniques for doing just that- there's so many tools available outside of the standard CMS (blackboard, angel, WebCT, moodle, etc) that most professors stick to. In response to someone's statement that discussion forums are pointless....Discussion boards are only as effective as the question, the moderator and the discussants.
Students have to be taught to be effective online students...Instructors have to be taught to be effective online educators. It's not the same world as the lecture hall and those techniques just don't cut it in the online classroom.
Can online classes be effective? Most certainly. Can they be challenging? Definitely. Is it possible to really learn something from them? Without a doubt. On the flip side, if delivered poorly they can be just as "poke my eye out" terrible as some of those f2f classes we've all had.
It's not for everyone, but it is for some- students who need the flexibility and have a compatible learning style can really benefit from them.
Belle, I would be happy to chat more with you if you have questions- I think my e-mail's in my profile... (I'll check)
Posts: 862 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Belle, I tried to reply to your email but I got a failure notice ("mailbox unavailable"). Could you contact me again with the correct email address to send you my consent and my name and email address? Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I have taken a couple of online college courses, and I find much depends on the instructor, and how actively he/she chooses to be with the online class.
One class was exceptionally good -- we had a discussion board and pretty much everyone used it, with the instructor also "prompting" us with questions and follow ups that kept the discussion going.
I found the online tests to be easier than what most college tests were, so I agreed with the end-of-semester in-person final exam, where we had to actually go to the campus to take it. That seemed fair and good way to make sure people were really doing their one work.
For people in rural areas, like me, it is invaluable to have the option of online classes. Many time the logistics, or the cost, of driving back and forth to town wouldn't make it possible any other way.
My daughter is finding it beneficial this year because there is a Statistics class she needs for her major at college that she just can't fit into her schedule. So she is going to take that course online from a local community college during the summer, to have it already out of the way before next semester starts.
But I have been in a poor online class too -- where the instructor wouldn't answer back to e-mails or discussion post or anything, for days. Communication is a HUGE part of making online courses work.
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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While I was getting my bachelor's, I took two online classes to fulfill a couple of general ed requirements. One was a health class that required us to read the chapter materials online and take an open-book quiz every week. We also had to keep an exercise log for a few weeks. There was no online discussion or instruction, and it took less than half an hour a week of my time. I got an A without much effort.
The other class was a physical science course, and it went about the same way. No discussion or instruction from the teacher, just online reading materials and quizzes. They weren't open-book, but they were so easy that for the most part I could answer the questions without reading the materials—I remembered most of it from junior high and high school. I also got an A with minimal effort.
I thought it was a great alternative to sitting in class for three hours a week trying to stay awake while we covered materials that I already knew. I don't think I would've enjoyed taking any of my major classes online, though, because I don't think I'm self-motivated enough to put in the effort. I suspect that I would've found myself neglecting to check in and do the homework, falling behind, and getting a poor grade.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I finished an entire grad program last summer that was administered entirely online. Not one visit to campus, not one face-to-face conversation with anybody else in the program.
My final course in the program was somewhat ironically a course on teaching an online course. A lot of what Coccinelle says in her post above rings true. There is much more to preparing and teaching an online course than just getting some PowerPoint slides together and setting up a quiz every week. The best instructors I had in my program were active participants in the online discussions and based a large part of our grade on our participation in those. They also had well-planned course outlines and detailed rubrics for all the assignments. The worst instructors didn't do enough to keep a healthy discussion going and didn't have a structure in place for advancing the learning topics each week. In those courses participation essentially ground to a halt after several weeks, and I didn't pay attention to them for weeks at a time.
I noticed that most of the learning I did in those courses came not from posted lectures, but from well-chosen readings and fairly intensive class discussions with the instructor closely involved. I actually like that style of learning quite a bit. My classmates were for the most part experienced pros in the workplace who had a lot to bring to the discussions.
I like the asynchronous discussion format a lot when it comes to discussing a weekly series of topics. It's perfectly suited for the crazy schedules of people who have families and who work full time. It works horribly, however, for any kind of collaborative project. The problem is, switching to chat or even conference calls to coordinate such an assignment is extremely inconvenient.
I liked how we could have students from a bunch of different time zones in the same class together. I had classes with people in Israel, England, and Australia, as well as all over the US and Canada. That was great for building a more vibrant community online as well as great for the university's ability to expand its programs and draw in students on a global basis.
We never had quizzes and tests in my courses. Our program seemed to be based on learning through discussion and reading, plus a variety of offline assignments and papers that made us apply our knowledge to our workplaces. I think the courses would have been even better had they not been tied so tightly to the university's semester schedule. Some of the most interesting courses I took were offered during summer term and consequently only 8 weeks long. That's too short for an online course, IMO. It takes more time to cover all the material and put together decent assignment work when you're only meeting online and can't spend hours in a study room with your heads together. The length of the course should be determined more by the amount of stuff needed to be accomplished. At the same time, however, an online course needs a more detailed schedule and syllabus, if anything, to keep participation and learning at optimum levels.
I think online learning is going to get better and better. It's certainly not just a fad. It's a big advantage both for students and for schools. Much of its potential has yet to be tapped.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Here is one downside: last summer I took an online course in ethics, and several hours after submitting one of the essay exams it occurred to me that I might have made a typo that utterly undermined the general thrust of my essay. I emailed the professor asking him if I could view the test I just submitted, and he said no, as that was against the rules. I got a B on the test, and probably because of that typo, but it wasn't so much the grade that bothered me but the fact that the professor probably thought I totally misunderstood the subject! In short, there was no way for me to explain myself. So, lack of communication--definite problem.
I'm actually pretty thankful for this thread because for a few days now I've been considering taking some online courses over this summer rather than a normal classes (the online classes are 12 weeks long but most of the regular classes are a mere six weeks.) I'll go for the regular classes because of this thread.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I take on-line classes out of necessity. I travel quite a bit so a regularly scheduled course is a must. I would much rather have a class that I attend in person.
I had one course where the professor was very responsive to questions. We had a forum where we could post questions and reply to others questions. The other professor was much less responsive. Her e-mails sounded like an automated response to me.
Posts: 1766 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:I emailed the professor asking him if I could view the test I just submitted, and he said no, as that was against the rules.
Why didn't you e-mail him and explain the exact thing you just explained here. Professor, I believe I made a typo the following typo on the exam (add detals), is it possible for me to correct this?
I'm not sure why it wasn't possible to explain yourself through e-mail.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I have taken a few online courses, with mixed results. For the most part they were an excellent way to take a class on my own schedule. Unfortunately I had one class where the professor was extremely inactive, he never gave any feedback, even if E-mailed for help, I had no idea how I was doing for the course or even if I was doing the work correctly. We also had to cover 5/6 of the material in the last quarter of the class, because of the inactivity.
Posts: 2489 | Registered: Jan 2002
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When I took online macroeconomics, we had in-person tests. This allowed the professor to compare us to the students taking the class in a traditional manner. As far as I know, there wasn't much of a difference between the two groups. I even vaguely remember a comment that we outperformed the regular students on at least one exam.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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belle, I've been trying to email you to give my approval and info, but so far I can't seem to get any kind of email/pm through to you. So, if you could either email again with an email addy that I can use to get to you or if anyone can point out how much of an idiot I am and tell me how to respond, that also works Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hatrack is the most wonderful community in the world. I have everything I need, thank you very much!
I interviewed people on faculty here at the university, and they agreed with what many of you said - online classes CAN work well, but only if students and teachers are committed to making it work.
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), but most were quite easy to progress in, if I had the motivation. The classwork wasn't often easy, but the schedule allowed me the flexibility that I wouldn't have otherwise had.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
I had to drop. But I passed in the next quarter. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
