posted
hardly fair to post this at 1:30 AM for some of us, although I should point out that the article mentions nothing about what Palistinians due to Israeli's.
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You're right, Blayne. They don't mention what the Palestinians do. I guess that invalidates the article. I'm wondering, the next time you're reading a screed against the PLO or Palestinians in our media, do you stop and think, "they don't mention what the Israelis do"?
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
We all know what the Palestinians do. Every time they fire a missile it's on the news, every time there is a suicide bombing it's on the news, even here. Western media hardly lacks for reporting on Palestinian atrocities committed against Israelis.
To be fair, when Israelis counterattack and kill dozens of Palestinians, they generally report that too, though it generally takes a fair bit of digging to find that 90% of those killed are usually civilians as collateral damage.
I'd like to see an independent investigation of these claims, but I don't know who could possibly do it fairly. I wouldn't trust the IDF, or anyone on the Palestinian side, and who would the IDF give access to that would be seen as credible?
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quote:o be fair, when Israelis counterattack and kill dozens of Palestinians, they generally report that too, though it generally takes a fair bit of digging to find that 90% of those killed are usually civilians as collateral damage.
It takes a bit less digging to find that that is a patently false statement.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I think it does qualify as a reign of terror. The definition of "terror" has a history of never being agreed upon though:
One definition, (A British scholar whose last name is O'Kane, forget her first) said that what characterizes terror is that innocent victims are targeted, and that the purveyors of violence feel they are delivering "summary justice". (This definition is a little contradictory, because if the people are innocent, how can justice be visited upon them?) In any case, innocent people in Gaza are dying, and many Israelis feel that their incursions are a just response to the rockets and bombings.
If these two facts are true about the situation, is it not terror? (If there is a better definition of terror that I don't know about, we could deal with that too.)
Some news from the last few days that I think demonstrates innocents are being punished and that (at least the leadership of) Israel sees this as justice:
I think any response that tries to minimize the importance of these pieces of news, which implies such treatment is deserved because of what Israelis have suffered, is not going to help this conversation. Neither side's terrorist actions should be excused in terms of the other's.
Also, we should recognize Israeli troops' behavior like what is mentioned in the_Somalian's link as a major contributing factor to the Palestinian terrorism, in addition to examining how much of this behavior could be explained by fears and pressure generated by Palestinian terrorists. If we just look at half of the cycle of violence, we're not going to get a good picture of what causes what. If you are going to consider the "terror" confessed by Israeli troops only in terms of being a response to Hamas terrorism, it is still inhumane, cruel and unusual. Any action on either side to continue the violence is wrong.
Americans should pay special attention to reports like this, because this is our tax dollars at work. We subsidize Israel's military heavily, and we're paying for atrocities. I don't want to be responsible for that, and I will not excuse it even if Israelis are afraid of Palestinian terrorists.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Hamas is a terrorist organization and I should point out the Palistinians brought this upon themselves they started it by trying to wipe Israel off the map.
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How incredibly simplistic of you Blayne. Taking perhaps the most complex and controversial conflict in the world and reducing it to one ignorant sentence. You even misspelled "Palestinians".
If I didn't know you, I'd think perhaps you were going for an intentional parody.
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quote:I think any response that tries to minimize the importance of these pieces of news, which implies such treatment is deserved because of what Israelis have suffered, is not going to help this conversation.
Sure it's not going to help the conversation.
Then again, your partisanship on behalf of Palestinians probably won't be helpful either. Because the truth is that while there's now a cycle of violence over there, cycles have to start somewhere.
Who do you think started taking the cycle of violence and directing it towards civilians, Nato?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I'm pretty sure the cycle of violence has been going on in that part of the world for at least 3000 years now. With violence mostly suppressed during the times that it was in the grip of various strong and oppressive empires and breaking out again as each one falls.
"Who started it" arguments go nowhere.
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It's not even that they go nowhere, they're uselessly unanswerable. "Who started it" arguments can go back more than 2,000 years. Who started it is an academic debate at this point, they both keep it going. Besides, two wrongs don't make a right. Since suicide bombers attacked innocents, Israelis can freely do it too? Both sides are morally bankrupt under that theory.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Without looking, about how many rocket attacks have you heard about since March 1?
Heard about? Off the top of my head; almost always at least one a day. Sometimes more.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:It's not even that they go nowhere, they're uselessly unanswerable. "Who started it" arguments can go back more than 2,000 years. Who started it is an academic debate at this point, they both keep it going. Besides, two wrongs don't make a right. Since suicide bombers attacked innocents, Israelis can freely do it too? Both sides are morally bankrupt under that theory.
Israel doesn't 'freely' do it in any event. Given their military advantage, if they were 'freely' doing it it would be so obvious that there wouldn't be any argument over it.
And anyway, there are cycles within cycles. Sure, an overall 'cycle of violence' has been going on in that area for thousands of years. But it hasn't been going on between Israelis and Palestinians, unless I'm very much mistaken.
The trouble is, people advancing ideas similar to Nato's here frequently in my experience say things like, "It doesn't matter who started it," but then go on to point to 'major contributing factors' to terrorism-another way of, you guessed it, pointing a finger and saying, "They started it!"
And in any case, just because the answer isn't helpful doesn't mean there isn't an answer to the question I asked. Of the two primary sides in this conflict, there is one side which has made an overall strategy out of targeting civilians.
quote:Heard about? Off the top of my head; almost always at least one a day. Sometimes more.
I confess I'm frankly skeptical that you hear about it so often, Lyrhawn. If you say you do, I'll believe you, but...I just took a glance over at CNN's world news section, specifically the Middle East, and didn't see one mention of the rocket attacks within the past four days of headlines.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:The trouble is, people advancing ideas similar to Nato's here frequently in my experience say things like, "It doesn't matter who started it," but then go on to point to 'major contributing factors' to terrorism-another way of, you guessed it, pointing a finger and saying, "They started it!"
And in any case, just because the answer isn't helpful doesn't mean there isn't an answer to the question I asked. Of the two primary sides in this conflict, there is one side which has made an overall strategy out of targeting civilians.
Yeah I see what you're saying. If you really want to look at who started it, blame the Germans, blame the British. Without the holocaust, I doubt we'd be in this mess. Without the British playing cartographer in the middle east, we wouldn't be in a lot other messes in addition to this one (namely, the mess in Iraq, including the first Gulf War).
As for who started the current mess? I think if you look at who started attacking civilians on purpose, as in targeting them for maximum damage, the answer is Palestinian groups like Hamas and the Al Aqsa Martyrs. But I wonder at what point that stops mattering when it comes to finding a solution. I know that it's easy, from Nato's position to say that Israel only fuels the fire with its actions, ensuring that more and more people join with the more violent ranks in attacking Israelis, but that's why they call it a cycle, because Israel can't do nothing, they HAVE to attack, and as a consequence of so many Palestinian targets hiding amongst civilians, the only way to get them is to suffer the collateral civilian casualties that are sure to come as a consequences of those Hamas and other groups' leaders decision to place themselves in civilian areas. But the Palestinian people don't make those kinds of nuanced analyses.
I still think that they will never be able to solve this problem themselves. Israel will never be able to stand back when they are attacked, they will ALWAYS move back in or retaliate in some way, which will keep it going, and groups like Hamas won't stop their attacks either. Unless a third party steps in to broker a deal AND act as a third party security force to keep them both in line, it will never work.
quote:I confess I'm frankly skeptical that you hear about it so often, Lyrhawn. If you say you do, I'll believe you, but...I just took a glance over at CNN's world news section, specifically the Middle East, and didn't see one mention of the rocket attacks within the past four days of headlines.
Well to be fair, the wording I used may have been misleading, but it's correct given the way Dag worded his question. I don't see daily news articles on it, between CNN, the BBC, Al-Jazeera English and a couple other news agencies I generally read about it every four or five days, usually only when someone actually is killed or injured, which, considering the frequency of the attacks and the number of missiles fired, isn't as often as you might think. I read about structural damage more often than I do deaths. But every time I read one of those stories they never fail to mention that there have been daily attacks. So while each individual attack doesn't make the news as it happens, they still make the news.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We all know what the Palestinians do. Every time they fire a missile it's on the news, every time there is a suicide bombing it's on the news, even here.
That's not even slightly true. The almost daily rocket attacks from Gaza aren't even news any more, and they do not get reported here except when they manage to kill people. Not even as page 37 filler.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
There's no "cycle of violence". Israel wants to live in peace. How polite do you expect us to be when the Arabs, raised on a diet of incitement to atrocity, do their very best to wipe us off the planet?
That's their goal. They aren't interested in peace of any kind. They have one end-game, and that's exactly the same as Ahmedinajad's. Wipe Israel out.
And this article is the kind of sick propaganda piece I'd expect from the Independent. Also the sick kind of thing I'd expect from the Somalian, who has already shown what his agenda is.
And Xavier, Blayne isn't being simplistic at all. It's the situation that's simplistic. There's a good side here, and an evil side. The Palestinian Arab side is evil. It isn't a matter of some of them committing atrocities from time to time. It is a national policy to commit the most animalistic acts of vile terror. They brainwash their children, they brainwash their entire population.
All you really need to do is look at their music, and at Israeli music. Israelis sing about peace. They yearn for peace. They make the most incredibly damn-fool quixotic sacrifices for peace. And what do they get in return? Murder. Atrocities.
They are evil. They are the first population that I would call really, seriously evil, since the Nazis in Germany. They have no excuse.
Those who don't carry out the atrocities support those who do. I'm sick to death of hearing about how there are really Palestinian Arabs who are against the terror, but are afraid to say so. Screw them. They are as guilty as the ones who commit the acts. It couldn't happen without their willing participation.
They need to be put out. Period. They need to be sent elsewhere and never allowed back again, not even for a visit.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nato: Some news from the last few days that I think demonstrates innocents are being punished and that (at least the leadership of) Israel sees this as justice:
This is a bunch of crap. They have a border with Egypt, which they aren't at war with. Why does Israel have the obligation to feed and support its own executioners? The fact that Israel does, in fact, feed and support them, is stupid, because it means that any time they let that support slack, we get propagandistic drivel like the stuff Nato posts here.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: They need to be put out. Period. They need to be sent elsewhere and never allowed back again, not even for a visit.
On the same line of thought, I think peace can just as easily come if the Israelis are kicked out, and not allowed back in for a visit. After all, Israel is a mistake.Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
That's dumb. We didn't steal anyone's land. If there was any stealing, it was done by the Arab marauders who stole our land at a time when we were helpless to stop them.
We never gave up our ownership to our land. Not for a day. Not for an hour. And even so, when we started building our land up again -- the land that the Arabs had been so kind as to turn mostly to desert during their barbaric tenure there -- we paid exorbinant prices for land that already belonged to us. The Arabs, though, couldn't accept that the Middle East wasn't going to remain their sole fiefdom any more, so they started murdering us.
Keep telling all the lies you want, Somalian. We both know that some people will believe you. But believe that I'll call you on the lies every time.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: They need to be put out. Period. They need to be sent elsewhere and never allowed back again, not even for a visit.
On the same line of thought, I think peace can just as easily come if the Israelis are kicked out, and not allowed back in for a visit. After all, Israel is a mistake.
Notice that he says it's a mistake, basically, because Muslims are barbarians who cannot reach a civilized peace with anyone. Do you agree? Are Muslims so filled with hatred and an inability to get along with anyone that the only solution is for everyone to give in to their bullying and run away?
Well, the Muslims couldn't get along with the Hindus, which is why Pakistan exists. They couldn't get along with Christians, which is why Lebanon exists. They couldn't get along with Jews, which is why the UN tried to partition our land. Are you seeing a pattern here?
How disgusting is is that there's a religion out that so full of poison and hatred that they have the whole damned world afraid of them. Then you complain about "Islamophobia" being some sort of problem. Well, there's what to be afraid of.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Israel was not a mistake any more Palistine was a mistake if anything the mistake was not making a jewish state that governed all of palistine from the start.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Why does Israel have the obligation to feed and support its own executioners?
Because they stole these people's land?
Possibly the stupidest comment I've heard this week, and you're competing with someone I overheard saying to his friend as they passed: "...So yeah, that's something I've had to come to copes with..."
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Palestinians: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
Israelis: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
Neither side is willing to allow an act of violence to pass without violent retribution. And so anyone, anyone can destroy whatever fragile peace can be negotiated, and there's nothing anyone, no matter their intentions, can do to prevent that!
If you believe that every civilian on one side can be flagged as an enemy combatant as a matter of course, then whatever nice words or strident rhetoric you might use, you are advocating genocide.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: This is a bunch of crap. They have a border with Egypt, which they aren't at war with. Why does Israel have the obligation to feed and support its own executioners? The fact that Israel does, in fact, feed and support them, is stupid, because it means that any time they let that support slack, we get propagandistic drivel like the stuff Nato posts here.
It's not so much that I think Israel has an obligation to provide for every need of those in Gaza or the West Bank.. But Israel has taken from these people their ability to make their living. The fishing fleet in Gaza is blockaded and risks being fired upon if they try to fish. Olive trees that take 30 years to become productive have been bulldozed by Israeli soldiers. Israel destroyed the US-funded main power plant for Gaza and withheld owed tax dollars to the democratically elected government for quite some time. (You would probably know better than I whether or not all the owed tax dollars had been returned to Gaza). You say the border with Egypt is meaningful, but Israel pressured Egypt to close its border with Gaza when it had been breached, urging them to stop the flow of people streaming across the border to buy food. The hospitals in Gaza have little power or supplies, yet Israel routinely delays and denies requests to transfer patients. The sewage system doesn't work because of the loss of power... I think when you've blown up the power station, you bear some responsibility if there is an outbreak of cholera due to the sewage stagnating.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: Nickel says this one gets locked...
If so, that's a shame. We aren't grown up enough to discuss some real problems even one of the times they arise? If this topic gets locked this time, we need to figure out what causes that problem and change it so that we can discuss Palestine. If later the world decides that this was genocide, we will all have egg on our faces if we couldn't even talk about it responsibly.
Anyway, it's clear that the cycle of violence is spinning.. It's up to everybody involved to denounce terrorism in all its forms, and neither side should wait for the other to do so. (And it's up to us on the outside to try and be as honest as possible about what is going on) Watching news footage about the suicide bombings the other day made me sad. A whole generation on each side has grown up in light of terror, and now they are twisted. Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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Maybe others do not feel this way, but it seems to me that starting a thread that includes nothing beyond a link is a mite tacky. It's even more so when it's obvious the topic is volatile. At the very least, some sort of statement on your own position from the get go is warranted.
You've sub sequentially done so, but I'd take it as a kindness if you could do us this favor in the future.
posted
I don't normally comment on these threads, but I just wanted to say thanks for the link in the OP. I was already aware of the organization, but it was good to read more about it.
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: Palestinians: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
Agreed. And I'd add that Palestinian Arabs: Do target innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: Israelis: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
Agreed. And I'd add that Israelis: Do not target innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: Neither side is willing to allow an act of violence to pass without violent retribution.
Factually, demonstrably, wrong. The Palestinian Arabs have been bombing Israel from Gaza from the first day after the pullout. Israel only periodically takes action against them. Why don't you get your facts straight before shooting from the hip like this?
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: If you believe that every civilian on one side can be flagged as an enemy combatant as a matter of course, then whatever nice words or strident rhetoric you might use, you are advocating genocide.
Israel does no such thing.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: This is a bunch of crap. They have a border with Egypt, which they aren't at war with. Why does Israel have the obligation to feed and support its own executioners? The fact that Israel does, in fact, feed and support them, is stupid, because it means that any time they let that support slack, we get propagandistic drivel like the stuff Nato posts here.
It's not so much that I think Israel has an obligation to provide for every need of those in Gaza or the West Bank.. But Israel has taken from these people their ability to make their living.
That's a lie.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: The fishing fleet in Gaza is blockaded and risks being fired upon if they try to fish.
How many times do we have to catch them bringing weapons in that way before it's not our problem?
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Olive trees that take 30 years to become productive have been bulldozed by Israeli soldiers.
You make it sound like we said, "Let's go bulldoze some olive trees to hurt some Arabs." When the Palestinian Arabs are unceasing in their attempts to commit atrocities against us, we have to do what we have to do for security. If trees got uprooted in the process, well, tough luck for the Palestinian Arabs. Maybe they should stop trying to kill us.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Israel destroyed the US-funded main power plant for Gaza and withheld owed tax dollars to the democratically elected government for quite some time.
"Owed tax dollars" forsooth. How much has their war against us cost? In dollars and in lives. You forgot the part about Israel supplying electricity to them, and them refusing to pay for it.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: (You would probably know better than I whether or not all the owed tax dollars had been returned to Gaza). You say the border with Egypt is meaningful, but Israel pressured Egypt to close its border with Gaza when it had been breached, urging them to stop the flow of people streaming across the border to buy food.
Propagandistic nonsense. The Palestinian Arabs were bringing weapons in that way; not just food.
See, that's the issue. They use ambulances to smuggle weapons and bombs. They store munitions in residential areas. They don't value human life; not even their own. They don't care if they use their own people as human shields. Israel does its best to avoid harming non-combatants, but bottom line, our safety comes before the safety of willing human shields.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: The hospitals in Gaza have little power or supplies, yet Israel routinely delays and denies requests to transfer patients.
To Israeli hospitals? Where they get the best treatment in the Middle East? For free? So that they can go back and murder more of us? Delays are inevitable when they've shown that they will use pleas of medical necessity to smuggle in suicide bombers. We aren't sheep, Nato. We're not stupid enough to let them do it again and again. Any delays are on their own heads.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: The sewage system doesn't work because of the loss of power... I think when you've blown up the power station, you bear some responsibility if there is an outbreak of cholera due to the sewage stagnating.
You think wrong. See, this is why it's a bad idea to make war against someone. Because, you know, they might strike back and harm your infrastructure. To whine that they're responsible for the loss of infrastructure is beyond nervy. No. The Palestinian Arabs have brought all of their misfortunes upon themselves. If they weren't engaged in war against the very existence of Israel, Israel wouldn't have to take steps to keep them from doing so. They'd have their precious infrastructure. It is their own fault. It is their own responsibility.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Anyway, it's clear that the cycle of violence is spinning.. It's up to everybody involved to denounce terrorism in all its forms, and neither side should wait for the other to do so. (And it's up to us on the outside to try and be as honest as possible about what is going on) Watching news footage about the suicide bombings the other day made me sad. A whole generation on each side has grown up in light of terror, and now they are twisted.
It was by design. The Arabs grew this generation like a horticulturist grows a special breed of plant.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Maybe others do not feel this way, but it seems to me that starting a thread that includes nothing beyond a link is a mite tacky. It's even more so when it's obvious the topic is volatile. At the very least, some sort of statement on your own position from the get go is warranted.
You've sub sequentially done so, but I'd take it as a kindness if you could do us this favor in the future.
The Somalian has made his agenda perfectly clear. He's started three threads in the last week or so. One used quotes in the title to deny that Israel has any right to exist. One was his Islamophobia thread. And this is the third. You work it out.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:But I wonder at what point that stops mattering when it comes to finding a solution.
In the abstract world of theoretical problem solving, 'who started it' really doesn't matter very much. You're right. Unfortunately this particular set of problems doesn't exist in that world, it exists in the world where people like and are sometimes even comforted by setting blame to one party or another.
It matters-for better or worse-because whose fault it is matters to people. And anyway, just because you decide that one party is more at 'fault' than the other doesn't mean that you can't move on from there.
quote:But the Palestinian people don't make those kinds of nuanced analyses.
Perhaps not in the way you're describing, no. Then again, there is definitely some sort of analysis going on when hiding in a civilian neighborhood is tolerated. Sometimes it's going to be for fear of reprisals, sometimes it's going to be they don't really know who's hiding in their `hood, and sometimes it's going to be approval, but there's definitely some reasoning going on.
quote:Israel will never be able to stand back when they are attacked, they will ALWAYS move back in or retaliate in some way, which will keep it going...
Here's the flaw I see: you seem to be suggesting that if Israel didn't respond violently to attacks, those attacks would stop. I fail to understand how anyone could arrive at that conclusion. "They're killing us" is not the only reason Palestinians attack Israelis, remember.
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quote:Those who don't carry out the atrocities support those who do. I'm sick to death of hearing about how there are really Palestinian Arabs who are against the terror, but are afraid to say so. Screw them. They are as guilty as the ones who commit the acts. It couldn't happen without their willing participation.
Well, that's just foolish. There is such a thing as duress. There's a reason we have a word for it. It doesn't absolve responsibility, but it does change things.
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Nato,
quote:Israel destroyed the US-funded main power plant for Gaza and withheld owed tax dollars to the democratically elected government for quite some time.
Are you really going to state it so blandly and pretend that's it? Israel withholds money from HAMAS. Shocking!
quote:It's up to everybody involved to denounce terrorism in all its forms, and neither side should wait for the other to do so.
I think you've got an unorthodox definition for the word 'denounce', then. I haven't been on Hatrack as much as I used to, but if memory serves you've never denounced Palestinian terrorism without pointing to some Israeli offense that somehow caused it or, wait, was a 'major contributing factor'.
The IDF does some pretty damn bad things sometimes. But it's not policy for them to do really bad things like it's policy for their enemies. Again, if it was policy it would be so obvious the issue would be beyond argument.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I wondered when Lisa was going to show up and prove her moral superiority by bullying and insulting people.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Israel withholds money from HAMAS. Shocking!
The fact that Israel is justified in this cannot be emphasized enough.
On NPR yesterday, they quoted Carter as saying that Hamas would accept a settlement negotiated by the non-Hamas government in the West Bank if the Palestinian people approved it in referendum.
However, when giving the details, Carter said that in response to his pressing them to accept Israel's continued existence, they said they would grant a 10-year truce in exchange for the division being returned to the 1967 borders.
A 10-year truce, refusal to state that they will not seek Israel's destruction, and a non-compromise position.
When you elect a party that desires the destruction of the nation giving you power and food, you shouldn't be surprised when that nation stops giving you power and food.
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quote: When you elect a party that desires the destruction of the nation giving you power and food, you shouldn't be surprised when that nation stops giving you power and food.
In my opinion-and this is what I was talking about earlier when I said it would be obvious-you should in fact be surprised if the nation formerly giving you power and food doesn't commit itself fully to your destruction in response.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I wondered when Lisa was going to show up and prove her moral superiority by bullying and insulting people.
Bite me, kat. I was wondering when you'd show up and snark at me without adding one little bit of content to the discussion.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: When you elect a party that desires the destruction of the nation giving you power and food, you shouldn't be surprised when that nation stops giving you power and food.
In my opinion-and this is what I was talking about earlier when I said it would be obvious-you should in fact be surprised if the nation formerly giving you power and food doesn't commit itself fully to your destruction in response.
If only Israel was rational enough to do just that.
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quote:If only Israel was rational enough to do just that.
I'm glad they're not. When your sole guiding star is rationality, things can get ugly pretty fast.
When your idea of rationality is the complete destruction of another people, things are already ugly.
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quote:I was wondering when you'd show up and snark at me without adding one little bit of content to the discussion.
Every time you act so predictably and make the discussion not worth respect and time of serious thought.
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quote:When your idea of rationality is the complete destruction of another people, things are already ugly.
Sure. But taking that approach to the problem, for the Israelis, would not be irrational.
In a bubble, it might not be irrational. But in a world that has many nations that would take issue with the complete destruction of any people, it wouldn't be rational to do so.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
They would not have to kill all of the Palestinians to destroy them in this context, Javert. I'm not saying they could do it overnight or that it wouldn't be extremely difficult, but Israel could start policies aimed at simply getting all of the Palestinians out of the area and moved elsewhere.
And as for the problems other nations would have with that...well, Israel deals regularly with the antagonism of most of the planet. What are those 'many nations' that would have a problem with that but not so much daily acts of war by Palestinians do about it?
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quote:When your idea of rationality is the complete destruction of another people, things are already ugly.
Sure. But taking that approach to the problem, for the Israelis, would not be irrational.
In a bubble, it might not be irrational. But in a world that has many nations that would take issue with the complete destruction of any people, it wouldn't be rational to do so.
Depends on how you define "destroy". If you mean kill them all, you're right. But no one is suggesting that. At least I hope Rakeesh isn't (I assume he isn't), and I'm certainly not. But sending them elsewhere, permanently, is something else entirely.
Enough is enough. They'll never settle for anything else than the extripation of Israel. Letting them stay between the Jordan and the Mediterranean will only extend and exacerbate the situation. They have to go. Every last one of them. Will that stop them from hating us? No. Will it stop them from trying to hurt us? No. But it'll be a lot easier to deal with them if they're fully outside of defensible borders, and then we won't have any responsibility for them whatsoever. We won't have to have checkpoints, we won't have to worry about whether they have power or food or medical care. Let them be an Arab problem.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: They would not have to kill all of the Palestinians to destroy them in this context, Javert. I'm not saying they could do it overnight or that it wouldn't be extremely difficult, but Israel could start policies aimed at simply getting all of the Palestinians out of the area and moved elsewhere.
And as for the problems other nations would have with that...well, Israel deals regularly with the antagonism of most of the planet. What are those 'many nations' that would have a problem with that but not so much daily acts of war by Palestinians do about it?
You've just changed the example.
Setting the morality aside, we're talking about the rationality of the complete destruction of a people. Regardless of who is doing the destroying and who is being destroyed, I'd like to think the US would be up in arms about it. I know that I would.
[Edit: Well, I was talking about complete destruction as the example. I'm glad that you aren't.]
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Israel destroyed the US-funded main power plant for Gaza and withheld owed tax dollars to the democratically elected government for quite some time.
Are you really going to state it so blandly and pretend that's it? Israel withholds money from HAMAS. Shocking!
Israel withholds human rights from those in the PA, especially Gaza. I believe Hamas won the election because Fatah was corrupt and ineffective at providing for basic needs of the population. Because of sanctions on the Hamas government from Israel, the US, and many EU states (maybe the whole thing?), the Hamas government has been able to do even less to secure basic needs for the people than Fatah. I don't subscribe to Hamas' political claims that terrorist-style responses to sanctions are justified, nor is it acceptable to me when innocent people are killed on either side. I think many on both sides assume, like Lisa does, that the whole population against them is morally corrupt and wants only their death and destruction. This is wrong.
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quote:It's up to everybody involved to denounce terrorism in all its forms, and neither side should wait for the other to do so.
I think you've got an unorthodox definition for the word 'denounce', then. I haven't been on Hatrack as much as I used to, but if memory serves you've never denounced Palestinian terrorism without pointing to some Israeli offense that somehow caused it or, wait, was a 'major contributing factor'.
I denounce Palestinian terrorism and all terrorism. I think that Palestinian's human rights (and then civil rights, political rights) should be protected even if some of them are terrorists. I will not accept Lisa's claim that the whole generation/race consists of terrorists/guilty accessories. (I don't believe this of any population.) One thing my study of terrorism has led me to believe is that terrorism against states arises when a population is occupied and controlled by a state in which the population has no meaningful impact on policy or believes this to be the case. I think the incentives to terrorize are intensified by violations of the human rights of the population that feels oppressed. I think this drives the dynamic of terrorism in Palestine, and human rights must be restored if we are to have a chance at stemming the terrorism.
quote: The IDF does some pretty damn bad things sometimes. But it's not policy for them to do really bad things like it's policy for their enemies. Again, if it was policy it would be so obvious the issue would be beyond argument.
I think this is the question at hand, but it's not beyond argument. Are the atrocities committed by the IDF "policy?" They are common, regular, frequent, promulgated by commanders within the force... The article from the first post seems to suggest that the NGO providing these testimonies of atrocities is trying to '"to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" in the occupied territories.' which suggests they are trying to make the argument that this is policy. They are making claims about policy through a plethora of examples, and while they can be debated, I don't think they can be dismissed. I think their efforts are similar to groups in the US working to raise consciousness of the extent torture was used and justified by our own government. Such groups should be listened to and their claims factored in on discussion of what policy is and what it should be. I don't see why that if human rights violations were policy they would be any more obvious than they are right now.
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