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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army
Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Sorry. Easy isn't an option.

You're going to have to learn to get along.

And if they won't, we have to just learn to live with the constant war? I don't think so.

Lyrhawn said we should stop responding when they hammer us. We've tried that. Not indefinately, obviously, because when we've tried it, it hasn't had the effect that Lyrhawn wishes it would. It just encourages them. When we back down, they grin and say, "Hey, we have them on the run, now". They don't think like you. They don't return good for good. They have a goal, and they are implacable.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I think the incentives to terrorize are intensified by violations of the human rights of the population that feels oppressed. I think this drives the dynamic of terrorism in Palestine, and human rights must be restored if we are to have a chance at stemming the terrorism.
This is a delightful plan. What's your plan for when such things are viewed as incentives to further terrorism by those terrorizing, as of course they will be?

quote:
They are common, regular, frequent, promulgated by commanders within the force... The article from the first post seems to suggest that the NGO providing these testimonies of atrocities is trying to '"to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" in the occupied territories.' which suggests they are trying to make the argument that this is policy.
Taken out of any meaningful context (does context matter less to you when it's the IDF you're pointing at?), it could appear to be a policy, yes. But given the disparities in military power between the two parties, I'll say it again: if the IDF and Israel was pursuing a policy of atrocity against Palestinians, it would be so obvious as to be beyond argument.

But it's not obvious. It only looks obvious when you step back from any context, like what you're doing here. If it was policy among the IDF to the extent that it is policy among their enemies, the body counts would be much, much higher.

Anyway, I'm tiring out on this conversation. Let me just point out that even though you're supposedly not trying to assign blame, you're pretty willing to agree with things like assessments that Israeli society has created the current reality.

They haven't. It takes two to tango, something that shouldn't need to be pointed out if you were really uninterested in pointing the finger.

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katharina
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quote:
Address the issues or shut up.
Your behavior is an issue.

Specifically, if the Israeli government thinks of the Palestinians and treats them with the same attitude that you express towards them and with the same respect that you treat the other posters, then they don't have any moral authority. They are the oppressors.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
quote:
Address the issues or shut up.
Your behavior is an issue.

Specifically, if the Israeli government thinks of the Palestinians and treats them with the same attitude that you express towards them and with the same respect that you treat the other posters, then they don't have any moral authority. They are the oppressors.

You are such a child sometimes.
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Mucus
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If only Israelis and Palestinians were oppressing each other with bitter complaints, nailed to telephone posts throughout the Gaza strip [Wink]
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Nato
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Should we ignore the sort of crimes detailed in the Independent article because they don't constitute enough of a "body count" to indicate that this is an intentional policy? What number would indicate that civilian casualties are "policy?"

quote:
From last fall (found by a quick google for "palestine body count"): http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtStEngPE.jhtml?itemNo=907708

It was a pretty quiet year, relatively speaking. Only 457 Palestinians and 10 Israelis were killed, according to the B'Tselem human rights organization, including the victims of Qassam rockets. Fewer casualties than in many previous years. However, it was still a terrible year: 92 Palestinian children were killed (fortunately, not a single Israeli child was killed by Palestinians, despite the Qassams). One-fifth of the Palestinians killed were children and teens - a disproportionate, almost unprecedented number. The Jewish year of 5767. Almost 100 children, who were alive and playing last New Year, didn't survive to see this one. ..

quote:
Anyway, I'm tiring out on this conversation. Let me just point out that even though you're supposedly not trying to assign blame, you're pretty willing to agree with things like assessments that Israeli society has created the current reality.
Eh, alright... It's a horrible situation. I would rather raise awareness of viewpoints like that of the Breaking the Silence NGO than cast blame, because I think recognizing the full scope of what the Palestinians endure will cause people to support their human rights. I think more humane living conditions would remove the strongest incentives to resist with such a desperate strategy as suicide bombing.

I would say the Israeli military has created the current dynamic more than I would the society.. And the article the_Somalian linked argues the same. I just don't think all the incidents of violence against Palestinians by the IDF should be discounted in context of the few casualties caused by Qassams. The quote from the article I mentioned seemed to be treating the state and the society too much together for my preferences, but I still think their viewpoint needs more exposure.

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Dan_raven
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So Lisa, what is the alternative?

You say that Hamas is an evil terrorist organization that must be removed.

Then you say that all the Palestinian Arabs are bread to be terrorists, raised on hate, and impossible to work with, trust, or talk to.

You state that the Isreali army never targets civilians, but you imply that there are no true Arab Palestinian civilians since they are all trained, raised, indoctrinated to destroy Israel.

There can be no peace since the only thing you believe that all Arab Palestinians know is to destroy Israel. No matter what they may publicly claim, promise, or sign, they can not be trusted.

They lie to well and too often.

What is the solution?

It can't be to continue living as you are now, in an eternal low level conflict that kills and destroys the land and property and people.

Is it truly, "All of them or all of us!"

Is the only solution to stop the attacks on Israel the utter and complete destruction of all Arab Palestinians?

What are you suggesting the solution be, other than Genocide?

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Reshpeckobiggle
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There are many on both sides who truly believe it is "All of them or all of us." This they say over the bodies of their children. Even if you are an Israeli or Palestinian who does not agree, will it matter what you think when everyone else is in a mortal struggle? No one yet has (what they view as)an acceptable solution to their problem, so they're gonna have to work it out themselves (by killing each other, eventually.)

I don't like it, but I know who I'm rooting for. Here's a hint: not the side that celebrated 9/11 as a big victory.

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katharina
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Amazingly, Lisa, continuing the personal insults does nothing to improve your position or your persuasiveness.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
So Lisa, what is the alternative?

You say that Hamas is an evil terrorist organization that must be removed.

Actually, you're mistaken. They are absolutely no more and no less a terrorist organization than Fatah. Which, incidentally, is the Arabic name for the PLO. Hamas is simply less interested in playing the PR game. They're like Fatah, 20 years ago. The goal hasn't changed, and the tactics haven't changed. Just the voiceover.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Then you say that all the Palestinian Arabs are bread to be terrorists, raised on hate, and impossible to work with, trust, or talk to.

You state that the Isreali army never targets civilians, but you imply that there are no true Arab Palestinian civilians since they are all trained, raised, indoctrinated to destroy Israel.

No, no, no, no, no. Does it give you some sort of thrill to blur distinctions? Yes, every single one of them is culpable. No, they are not all the same. There are levels of culpability. Not everything is black and white. You may want to pretend that I think things are only black and white, but that's you, not me.

Those who actually commit acts of violence against Israel, or attempt to do so, should be killed. Yes. Without exception. Fire a rocket at us, you die. Carry arms or munitions into Israel, you die. Kidnap or attack an Israeli, with firearms, molotov cocktails, or so much as a rock, and you die. War sucks, Dan. Stop committing war, and you stop dying. It's that complicated and it's that simple.

Those who propagandize for them and those who allow themselves to be used as human shields are not the same. We should not intentionally harm them, but neither do we have any responsibility for their well being.

It's the difference between pushing someone off a cliff and deciding whether or not to risk yourself by pulling them up from a cliff. The actual combatants should be pushed off. Their supporters should be left to twist in the wind, and if they get hurt in the process, well... they bought and paid for the opportunity.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
There can be no peace since the only thing you believe that all Arab Palestinians know is to destroy Israel. No matter what they may publicly claim, promise, or sign, they can not be trusted.

That's the case. They have never taken one step back from their goal to wipe Israel off the planet. Nor will they ever do so. They respond to concessions and favors by upping the violence, like animals seeing a sign of weakness in their prey.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
They lie to well and too often.

What is the solution?

It can't be to continue living as you are now, in an eternal low level conflict that kills and destroys the land and property and people.

No, that's true. Israel has to do something very difficult, and at the same time something very simple. We simply have to decide to win. You might think that's bizarre. I mean, what kind of people have to think twice before deciding to win? The answer is, a people who are at once too compassionate for their own good, and too scared of what people will say. A people who are terrified that some day the worst will happen and Israel will be destroyed. And that when we're back in exile, dispersed among the nations of the world, we'll need examples of our extreme and insane compassion to convince people not to treat us the way they have for the past millenia.

Fear and an excess of compassion, Dan. It's always been our plague. Our first king, Saul, had an excess of compassion for the Amalekite king Agag, and our people were nearly wiped out by the Persians, egged on by a descendent of the king that Saul spared. The Rabbis say that one who is compassionate to the cruel will inevitably wind up being cruel to the compassionate.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Is it truly, "All of them or all of us!"

Is the only solution to stop the attacks on Israel the utter and complete destruction of all Arab Palestinians?

It's the elimination of any such thing as Palestinian Arabs. They can be Arabs, but elsewhere.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
What are you suggesting the solution be, other than Genocide?

Expulsion. Permanent and irrevocable.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
Amazingly, Lisa, continuing the personal insults does nothing to improve your position or your persuasiveness.

<yawn> Pot, have you met kettle? You've said nothing in this thread other than that I'm a poo-poo head, and that Israel must be wrong if I'm on their side. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?
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katharina
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Do you realize how hostile and evil you sound as you call for genocide?
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Lisa
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Do you realize what an ass you sound like when you claim that I'm calling for genocide?
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Here's the flaw I see: you seem to be suggesting that if Israel didn't respond violently to attacks, those attacks would stop. I fail to understand how anyone could arrive at that conclusion. "They're killing us" is not the only reason Palestinians attack Israelis, remember.

I don't think it's nearly that simple, nor do I think that'd actually happen, but I know for sure that so long as retaliation follows retaliation, the cycle will continue, looping endlessly until one of them breaks it one way or the other. I don't think that just not responding will solve the problem, but I think that any peaceable settlement that could be reached will involve restraint, on both sides.

It's hard to imagine what a peaceful solution will look like these days, especially when it really only takes one guy with a gun, or a bomb, or a home made qassam to ruin a fragile peace (should one be established). It'll be two or three generations, even if they settled on peace today, before the lingering resentments and hatred die away. I think expelling them from Palestine would be bloody, with thousands dying on both sides (mostly Palestinians). In return, Israel would lose all moral authority they have, and billions in worldwide aid. I'm not convinced they'd be a viable state without it, especially if pressed by Arab military powers in the region. But, frankly no one wants or cares about Palestinians. Iran only cares about them so they have a tool to whip up anti-semitic fervor in the Persian heartland, and everyone else just likes using it as a wedge issue against the West and the US specifically. If the Palestinians are expelled, no one will willingly take them in and see to their needs. They'd become the world's largest displaced, nationless refugees, and I think it's likely that they'd die in droves, and the ones who survive would pass their hatred of Israel down through generations. And maybe for Israel that's still better than the status quo, I couldn't say, as I don't live there.

But a peaceful solution will never come with the current rulers of Hamas in charge. They will continue to agitate. I don't even think they care about Israel and Palestine anymore, like most tyrants, I think they care about what keeps them in power, and in this case it's the same thing that keeps Iran's hardliners going: hatred of Israel and the desire to wipe it off the map. So they feed into and off of that desire to empower themselves and to indoctrinate Palestinians into the cause.

Short of a massive, massive military intervention from NATO and Arab forces, the confiscation of all personally held weapons in the Palestinian territories, and a huge rebuilding efforts in the territories, I don't see what else will work to suppress violence and allow something to take its place. And I don't think that will ever happen.

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MightyCow
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Sometimes I wonder if Lisa isn't a really smart Palestine supporter, and she's foxing us all good.
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Dan_raven
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Is it truly, "All of them or all of us!"

Is the only solution to stop the attacks on Israel the utter and complete destruction of all Arab Palestinians?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's the elimination of any such thing as Palestinian Arabs. They can be Arabs, but elsewhere.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
What are you suggesting the solution be, other than Genocide?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expulsion. Permanent and irrevocable.

So the solution is Ethnic Cleansing.

My problem with that are many, but the most practical one is simply, that won't solve the problem. Take every Arab out of Palestine, regardless of the provable level of the culpability in Israeli deaths, and you move them out past the borders of what was Palestine. What do you do with that country? The obvious answer is that it goes to the people who fight to make it terrorist free--the Israelis.

Now you have Arabs of Palestinian descent outside of Palestine. Won't they start launching missiles into Palestine, where the new Israeli borders are? Won't Israeli settlers move into every corner of land that once was the Kingdom of Israel, and do what they do now--demand protection from Palestinian Arabs who look on that land as their own?

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katharina
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Can't you see that since you constantly resort to personal insults when you are called on your bigotry and hate, you only reinforce that I'm right?
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Mucus
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I can provoke your insults.
Therefore, I win the argument. QED.

I gotta try that one sometime.

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Sterling
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Palestinians: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.

Agreed. And I'd add that Palestinian Arabs: Do target innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
Yes. Some do. Which doesn't seem to be a distinction you feel inclined to make.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Israelis: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.

Agreed. And I'd add that Israelis: Do not target innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
As a matter of policy, the Israeli government does not target civilians, at least not in the same manner that Palestinian extremists do. Israeli soldiers, on the other hand, have been known to act with disproportianate or unilateral force, something which there are standing examples of outside of the article which started this topic. And many of the actions taken by the Israeli government- including the destruction of settlements- punish the innocent for the sake of not failing to punish and halt the actions of the guilty. It's become acceptable for some to think of Palestinians as a grand "they", which makes the loss of civilian lives for the sake of "surgical" strikes on terrorists somehow acceptable... After all, they're either terrorists or terrorists-to-be, right?

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Neither side is willing to allow an act of violence to pass without violent retribution.

Factually, demonstrably, wrong. The Palestinian Arabs have been bombing Israel from Gaza from the first day after the pullout. Israel only periodically takes action against them. Why don't you get your facts straight before shooting from the hip like this?
Palestinian attacks are frequent and random. Israeli reciprocity is less frequent, but more coordinated and brings more force to bear. Not responding to attacks on an individual basis is part of what has allowed the justification of collective punishment in the first place.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
If you believe that every civilian on one side can be flagged as an enemy combatant as a matter of course, then whatever nice words or strident rhetoric you might use, you are advocating genocide.

Israel does no such thing.
I wasn't speaking about Israel as a whole. Just certain of its current and former inhabitants.

I support Israel's right to exist. I believe the foundation of Israel is a story of bravery in the face of ludicrous odds. That doesn't mean, to crib a quote from Iain Banks, that Israel has some kind of moral "blank check" in the name of security.

At the risk of sounding terribly Pollyanna, when Palestinian and Israeli youth are exposed to one another in safety, they often seem to find they have much more in common than their past history would suggest.

When most of the contact between Israelis and Palestinians is behind guns, and most of what each believes about the other comes from the stories of their hard-line elders, why wouldn't their perceptions of each other as enemies be set?

And for all that Israel has done in the name of security, does it seem to be any closer to ending violence there?

(If this leads to my being told that Israel's lack of peace is due to the level of restraint Israel has shown, I'm preparing to roll my eyes.)

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the_Somalian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Is it truly, "All of them or all of us!"

Is the only solution to stop the attacks on Israel the utter and complete destruction of all Arab Palestinians?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's the elimination of any such thing as Palestinian Arabs. They can be Arabs, but elsewhere.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
What are you suggesting the solution be, other than Genocide?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expulsion. Permanent and irrevocable.

So the solution is Ethnic Cleansing.

My problem with that are many, but the most practical one is simply, that won't solve the problem. Take every Arab out of Palestine, regardless of the provable level of the culpability in Israeli deaths, and you move them out past the borders of what was Palestine. What do you do with that country? The obvious answer is that it goes to the people who fight to make it terrorist free--the Israelis.

Now you have Arabs of Palestinian descent outside of Palestine. Won't they start launching missiles into Palestine, where the new Israeli borders are? Won't Israeli settlers move into every corner of land that once was the Kingdom of Israel, and do what they do now--demand protection from Palestinian Arabs who look on that land as their own?

There's something temptingly logical about Lisa's proposal--if the Palestinians continue to be a problem, simply ethnically cleanse them out of the coveted land. Maybe Egypt can be persuaded to take them in, with the help of US pressure. Then the Palestinians might still have issues with Israel, but at least they'll be a distant problem.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Is it truly, "All of them or all of us!"

Is the only solution to stop the attacks on Israel the utter and complete destruction of all Arab Palestinians?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's the elimination of any such thing as Palestinian Arabs. They can be Arabs, but elsewhere.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
What are you suggesting the solution be, other than Genocide?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expulsion. Permanent and irrevocable.

So the solution is Ethnic Cleansing.
Label it however you want. It's like saying that killing a lunatic on a rampage with an assault rifle is the same as killing someone getting money out of an ATM. Both are killing, but they're as different as night and day. You want to call it ethnic cleansing, fine. I don't care. It needs to be done, and it'll save countless lifes on both sides. Not that I'm overly concerned about the lifes on their side, but that's something that might concern you.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
My problem with that are many, but the most practical one is simply, that won't solve the problem. Take every Arab out of Palestine, regardless of the provable level of the culpability in Israeli deaths, and you move them out past the borders of what was Palestine. What do you do with that country? The obvious answer is that it goes to the people who fight to make it terrorist free--the Israelis.

Excuse me. There is no "Palestine". The area that was once called Palestine is now made up of two countries, Israel and Jordan, and the disputed territories of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. There was never a country called Palestine. Never in all of history.

We're not talking about taking people out of their country. There's no country to take them out of. We're talking about Israel establishing permanent boundries that include all of what was once called Palestine to the west of the Jordan River. That's about 21-22% of the area once called Palestine, and a much smaller percentage of the historic Land of Israel.

It's our land. I wasn't aware when I posted before that my intent was that vague. I'm saying they go elsewhere, and we live at peace in our land. Hebron, where our patriarchs are buried (and I'd note that Isaac and Jacob are buried there; Ishmael isn't). Shechem (Nablus), where Joseph is buried. Bethlehem, where King David was born and raised. The rest of the land, where our ancestors were brutally exiled by Romans who had no connection with our land in the first place.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Now you have Arabs of Palestinian descent outside of Palestine.

No, you have Arabs outside of Israel. If they want Palestine, they still have 78-79% of it on the east side of the Jordan. They can fight it out with their fellow Arabs.

quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Won't they start launching missiles into Palestine, where the new Israeli borders are? Won't Israeli settlers move into every corner of land that once was the Kingdom of Israel, and do what they do now--demand protection from Palestinian Arabs who look on that land as their own?

Do you honestly see no difference between fighting a conventional war and dealing with terrorists of this sort? If they launch missiles into Israel, we have an airforce to deal with them. It'll be the responsibility of the country where they're living to stop them from doing that.

The people who build towns and cities in Judea and Samaria will not be "settlers". They'll be Israeli Jews, living in all corners of our own land.

You know something? Back when the state hadn't been declared yet, there were four ideas floating around as to what the new state should be called. One was Israel, obviously, and that's the one that won. One was Zion, which made a lot of sense, given that Zionism was the name of the ideology which convinced people that the time to return had arrived. But Zion really refers to Jerusalem, rather than to the whole land, so that wasn't adopted. Nor was Judea, for the same reason. The fourth idea was Palestine. Since the Jews living in the area had been called Palestinians for a very long time, some people thought it'd be best to retain the name, despite the fact that it was an offensive term placed on our land by Hadrian after putting down a Jewish revolt.

In fact, the Jerusalem Post, Israel's major English language newspaper, was originally called the Palestine Post. If you look at the masthead today, you'll see that that's still the name of the corporation that publishes the Jerusalem Post.

Just as a thought experiment, consider what might have been different had the early Zionists chosen to retain the name of Palestinian that everyone knew them by. I mean, my partner's great-grandfather was a Palestinian. He's buried in Safed.

You get so hung up on semantics that are just an accident of history. These Arabs are Arabs. Period. There was never any ethnic difference between the Arabs living to the east of the Jordan and Arabs living to the west. It's an artificial distinction. Which I wouldn't care about, really, except that it's used to try and delegitimize the real owners of Israel, which is the people of Israel.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
I can provoke your insults.
Therefore, I win the argument. QED.

I gotta try that one sometime.

<snicker>
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MightyCow
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Wouldn't all the Israelis leaving work just as well?
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Human
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If ethnic cleansing really is a 'solution'--and mind you, I don't think it is--where does it stop? If it's alright for the Israelis to 'cleanse' the Palestinians, then by the same token, isn't it 'right' for the similar actions in Serbia, in so many African countries, etc, to do the same thing? Even if every Palestinian Arab was forced out of Israel, as Dan said, that doesn't stop the problem. You'd have to kill them, you would! Where does the fighting and killing stop? When Israel is the sole state left in the Middle East?

Also, please tell me I'm not the only one to see the irony in the fact that a member of a group that suffered the Holocaust is advocating ethnic cleansing.

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MightyCow
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It's not so much irony, as following the OT - Killing Jews = bad, Jews killing their enemies = ordained by God.
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Human
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Yeah, but if you start invoking that sort of argument, that's another slippery slope.
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katharina
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I used to wonder why there was so much conflict in the middle east. After seeing Lisa, it all makes sense.

I can't get over the evil, wicked sadness that a state created because of a great wrong is defended by proposing the great wrong again.

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twinky
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I don't normally read these threads or comment on them, but one might use "Palestinian Arabs" and "Palestinian Jews" to describe Arabs and Jews living in or born in the Mandate of Palestine and/or descended from the same, in a discussion about events prior to 1948 where the distinction is relevant.

I have no interest in addressing or discussing any of the other stuff [in this thread] on this forum at this stage, and likely won't continue reading this thread beyond today, but I thought that might be useful.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Palestinians: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.

Agreed. And I'd add that Palestinian Arabs: Do target innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
Yes. Some do. Which doesn't seem to be a distinction you feel inclined to make.
There was an Israeli named Ami Popper. He snapped one day, grabbed 7 Arabs at a construction site, and shot them down in cold blood.

Israel went berzerk. Ami Popper was put in jail forever. Everyone was horrified.

That's a far cry from the popular support that suicide bombers receive among Palestinian Arabs. They name schools and streets after them. They celebrate them. They teach their children to want to grow up and be martyrs, so long as they take a bunch of Jews with them.

So no, Sterling, I'm not inclined to make the distinction. They don't. They lionize terrorists. They make them heroes of the people. We are revolted and horrified and come down on such people like a ton of bricks.

You should be ashamed of yourself for not making that distinction.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Israelis: not justified in targetting innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.

Agreed. And I'd add that Israelis: Do not target innocent civilians. Period. If you claim otherwise, you're wrong.
As a matter of policy, the Israeli government does not target civilians, at least not in the same manner that Palestinian extremists do.
Quit it with the weasel words. Israel doesn't target civilians, period. Israel has, time and again, sent ground troops into hotbeds of terrorist activity, going door to door and taking massive casualties, when carpet bombing the area would have spared our own boys. It's sickening, but the Israeli government actually thinks that's either the moral thing to do, or at the very least the politically prudent thing to do. I can guarantee you that I'd do otherwise.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Israeli soldiers, on the other hand, have been known to act with disproportianate or unilateral force,

In your opinion. You're no judge of what's proportionate. And what the hell would be multilateral force? Israel's suppose to politely ask the nations of the world to help?

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
It's become acceptable for some to think of Palestinians as a grand "they", which makes the loss of civilian lives for the sake of "surgical" strikes on terrorists somehow acceptable... After all, they're either terrorists or terrorists-to-be, right?

Or supporters of terrorists. Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Neither side is willing to allow an act of violence to pass without violent retribution.

Factually, demonstrably, wrong. The Palestinian Arabs have been bombing Israel from Gaza from the first day after the pullout. Israel only periodically takes action against them. Why don't you get your facts straight before shooting from the hip like this?
Palestinian attacks are frequent and random. Israeli reciprocity is less frequent, but more coordinated and brings more force to bear.
So if a nut takes an assault rifle and started randomly shooting up a college campus, and a person who is trained with firearms pulls a pistol and drops him with a single shot, the nut is a victim and the guy who shoots him is a villain? That's twisted. Badly twisted. One hundred Arabs trying to murder us or support those trying to murder us... against say one or two Jews just living their lives... and the just choice is for the two Jews to die, because that's only two deaths, rather than one hundred? No.

They try and kill us. And yes, it is a national effort. It is supported by their grassroots. It is not a bunch of bad guys in a junta with helpless peons who can't stop the madness. You're mad if you think it is. Or maybe you simply can't wrap your mind around such evil. But it exists, Sterling. It's there. It's there in the words of mothers who send their own flesh and blood to blow themselves up for the greater glory of Allah. Who smile when their children die, so long as they took many Jews with them.

Our responsibility is to protect our people. If protecting one of our lives costs one hundred of theirs, that's cheap. Our lives are of inestimable value to us. The lives of people who are committing war against us are not and should not be worth anything at all.

That's not to say that we should kill them all indescriminately. Evil or not, they're still human beings. Every single one of them has the capacity to some day turn away from their evil and become civilized human beings instead of the barbarians they are. So if we can protect the life of a single one of our people either at the cost of 100 of their lives or at the cost of 1000 of our lives, our proper choice is the 100. But it will never, ever, ever, be to let one our own die in order to spare them.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Not responding to attacks on an individual basis is part of what has allowed the justification of collective punishment in the first place.

We don't have that luxury. If they were to surrender up the perpetrator of a terrorist action, we could punish that one person and be done with it. That's not how it works. This is a nation at war. They, as a nation, are trying to wipe us out. Those who fight, fight. Those who plan, plan. The rest support it, either actively or passively. They do nothing to stop it, and it's not because they're afraid, it's because they agree with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
At the risk of sounding terribly Pollyanna, when Palestinian and Israeli youth are exposed to one another in safety, they often seem to find they have much more in common than their past history would suggest.

All of those groups start from the premise that Israel is an aggressor. Their Israeli components are members of the left who are on the side of the Palestinian Arabs to begin with. You never have groups like that where the Arabs accept that terrorist acts are inherently unacceptable.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
When most of the contact between Israelis and Palestinians is behind guns, and most of what each believes about the other comes from the stories of their hard-line elders, why wouldn't their perceptions of each other as enemies be set?

Right. It's just Israeli leaders who have misled us to think that the Palestinian Arab war of extermination against us enjoys virtually unanimous grassroots support. In your dreams, Sterling. You really have to shut your eyes to one instance after another of evil Palestinian Arab hate-mongering to believe that.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
And for all that Israel has done in the name of security, does it seem to be any closer to ending violence there?

Israel keeps taking half measures. No question about that. And the State of Israel bears culpability for that. Like I said earlier, we have to decide to win. Until we do that, we're simply drawing this conflict out.

quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
(If this leads to my being told that Israel's lack of peace is due to the level of restraint Israel has shown, I'm preparing to roll my eyes.)

Roll them, then.
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Dan_raven
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Sorry this popped up as a double post.

Lisa, you have honed in on some details that I was mistaken about, but you missed the main point.

How many Arabs are there that you want out of Isreal?

Where would they go?

Who would pay for them to go?

Part of this whole problem was that during those first few years of Israel, no Arab or Islamic country wanted to take Arab refuge's from Israel. It was and is cheaper to give them some guns and let them die killing Israeli's than it is to bring them into the fold.

But suppose that 2 million Arabs who believe that Palestine is thier home--perhaps not the country, but cities like Jerusalem and Hebron, where they have lived for centuries. They suddenly find themselves in Jordan or Syria or Egypt. Wont some of them feel embittered to the point of launching attacks from thier host countires? There is a lot of frontier and desert on your borders.

Will Israel then bomb their neighbors for not being able to police their borders?

This can only grow larger, not be over.

[ April 22, 2008, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Dan_raven ]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Human:
If ethnic cleansing really is a 'solution'--and mind you, I don't think it is--where does it stop? If it's alright for the Israelis to 'cleanse' the Palestinians, then by the same token, isn't it 'right' for the similar actions in Serbia, in so many African countries, etc, to do the same thing?

Or in other words:

If killing is really a 'solution' -- and mind you, I don't think it is -- where does it stop? If it's alright to shoot someone who is on a rampage with an assault rifle, then by the same token, isn't it 'right' to shoot any random person you pass on the street?

When the Palestinian Arabs persist in their bloody attempts to wipe us out (a kind of ethnic cleansing that doesn't seem to bother you very much, or is it just that you don't believe they can succeed?), they choose their own punishment.

And your comment about the Holocaust is foul beyond belief. To compare a nation which supports mass murder of civilians, and names schools after the perpetrators, to the Jews who lived in Germany, and wanted nothing more than to be good Germans, shows a complete lack of moral sense on your part. There's a context, even if you're too foolish to understand it.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
I used to wonder why there was so much conflict in the middle east. After seeing Lisa, it all makes sense.

I can't get over the evil, wicked sadness that a state created because of a great wrong is defended by proposing the great wrong again.

You're breaking my heart. And you're full of crap, too. If I was on the other side of this argument, you would be as well. You don't give half a damn about it; you're just interested in bashing me. It's childish, kat. Grow up.
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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
It's our land. I wasn't aware when I posted before that my intent was that vague. I'm saying they go elsewhere, and we live at peace in our land. Hebron, where our patriarchs are buried (and I'd note that Isaac and Jacob are buried there; Ishmael isn't). Shechem (Nablus), where Joseph is buried. Bethlehem, where King David was born and raised. The rest of the land, where our ancestors were brutally exiled by Romans who had no connection with our land in the first place.

Do you realize that many Palestinians share very similar feelings about Israel being "their land"? Some still have the keys and deeds to the homes that they were kicked out of decades ago (my history teacher personally knows a family that does). It amazes me that you can declare Israel to be your people's land based off of ancestry while completely ignoring similar Palestinian claims.

quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
You get so hung up on semantics that are just an accident of history. These Arabs are Arabs. Period. There was never any ethnic difference between the Arabs living to the east of the Jordan and Arabs living to the west.

There is a huge cultural difference. Arabs have their own share of stereotypes about each other just like we have our own share of stereotypes about each other. For example, white people are white people but I am not a Texan (no hate [Smile] ).

quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Which I wouldn't care about, really, except that it's used to try and delegitimize the real owners of Israel, which is the people of Israel.

That is not a fact. It's your opinion.

EDIT: To clarify that last comment, I believe in Israel's right to exist. I don't believe that the land itself is reserved for Jews.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
So if a nut takes an assault rifle and started randomly shooting up a college campus, and a person who is trained with firearms pulls a pistol and drops him with a single shot, the nut is a victim and the guy who shoots him is a villain?

That's not a correct analogy. In your hypothetical, I think the guy would be given cautious praise for his actions, with grumbles about vigilantism. But for that to be an appropriate analogy to what is happening in Israel/Palestine, the guy would pull the pistol, fire off the whole clip, take out two fellow students, a child, and the guy with the assault rifle, and he'd be condemned for his actions. It may be that he actually saved lives by doing so, but he took some as well, to say nothing of the fact that he became the guy who decides who lives and who dies, and that shouldn't be his choice to make.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by the_Somalian:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

Maybe others do not feel this way, but it seems to me that starting a thread that includes nothing beyond a link is a mite tacky. It's even more so when it's obvious the topic is volatile. At the very least, some sort of statement on your own position from the get go is warranted.

You've sub sequentially done so, but I'd take it as a kindness if you could do us this favor in the future.

The Somalian has made his agenda perfectly clear. He's started three threads in the last week or so. One used quotes in the title to deny that Israel has any right to exist. One was his Islamophobia thread. And this is the third. You work it out.
See I have not been all over hatrack these past few days, and I did not connect the dots between those specific threads. If King of Men started a thread and simply linked a lecture by Richard Dawkins talking about organized religion I would still think it's tacky.
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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
When the Palestinian Arabs persist in their bloody attempts to wipe us out (a kind of ethnic cleansing that doesn't seem to bother you very much, or is it just that you don't believe they can succeed?), they choose their own punishment.

What bothers me (and likely other people here) is that you lump all of the Palestinians together as your enemy. That would be like me declaring that Muslims are our enemy because of the actions of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

Btw, I would just like to mention that Tancredoism has never proven itself to be a successful deterrent to attacks.

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Human
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:

If killing is really a 'solution' -- and mind you, I don't think it is -- where does it stop? If it's alright to shoot someone who is on a rampage with an assault rifle, then by the same token, isn't it 'right' to shoot any random person you pass on the street?

When the Palestinian Arabs persist in their bloody attempts to wipe us out (a kind of ethnic cleansing that doesn't seem to bother you very much, or is it just that you don't believe they can succeed?), they choose their own punishment.

And your comment about the Holocaust is foul beyond belief. To compare a nation which supports mass murder of civilians, and names schools after the perpetrators, to the Jews who lived in Germany, and wanted nothing more than to be good Germans, shows a complete lack of moral sense on your part. There's a context, even if you're too foolish to understand it.

I don't think either of you is right. I think you're killing each other over some land and the words written down in books a few thousand years ago. I think both sides are committing the same sin and the same crime, the one that is going to damn the whole freaking race if we're not careful: killing and hurting each other for no damn reason than divides that lie mostly in our minds. Just because it's traditional, or "divinely" inspired, or whatever, doesn't make it right, on either side.

I don't think I'm missing the context, by the way, and I resent being called a fool simply because I don't agree with you. You're advocating ethnic cleansing of a sect of people you consider a threat to your land and your culture and your safety. Does this sound familiar at all? In my eyes, all three groups stand on shaky ethical ground at best.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
Do you realize that many Palestinians share very similar feelings about Israel being "their land"? Some still have the keys and deeds to the homes that they were kicked out of decades ago (my history teacher personally knows a family that does). It amazes me that you can declare Israel to be your people's land based off of ancestry while completely ignoring similar Palestinian claims.

Does it really amaze you, or are you being rhetorical? Because if I'm forced out of my home, and while I'm away, someone breaks in and writes himself a deed, I don't much care about his deed. So the Ottomans conquered the region and started giving out deeds to their own people. This concerns me exactly why?

We never forfeited our own claim to our own land.

quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
You get so hung up on semantics that are just an accident of history. These Arabs are Arabs. Period. There was never any ethnic difference between the Arabs living to the east of the Jordan and Arabs living to the west.

There is a huge cultural difference. Arabs have their own share of stereotypes about each other just like we have our own share of stereotypes about each other. For example, white people are white people but I am not a Texan (no hate [Smile] ).
That's not really my problem. It's something that was constructed by the Arabs themselves. They can't create a nationality out of thin air and then insist that I respect it.

quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Which I wouldn't care about, really, except that it's used to try and delegitimize the real owners of Israel, which is the people of Israel.

That is not a fact. It's your opinion.
No, it's fact.

quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
EDIT: To clarify that last comment, I believe in Israel's right to exist. I don't believe that the land itself is reserved for Jews.

Thanks for the clarification. That, however, is your opinion.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
What bothers me (and likely other people here) is that you lump all of the Palestinians together as your enemy. That would be like me declaring that Muslims are our enemy because of the actions of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

Would it make you feel better if Lisa always said "84% of Palestinians" or "64% of Palestinians" instead of "Palestinians"?
quote:

According to the poll, of 1,270 Palestinians in face-to-face interviews, 84 percent supported the March 6 attack on the Mercaz Harav yeshiva, one of Israel’s most prominent centers of religious Zionism and ideological wellspring of the settler movement in the West Bank. Mr. Shikaki said that result was the single highest support for an act of violence in his 15 years of polling here. The poll has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points.

On negotiations between Ehud Olmert, prime minister of Israel, and Mr. Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, 75 percent said they were without benefit and should be terminated. Regarding the thousands of rockets that have been launched on Israeli towns like Sderot and Ashkelon, 64 percent support it.

link
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katharina
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Lisa, your viscious and hostile reaction concerning this topic is downright evil. It's also so nonsensical that I think you're either playing a game or else are missing a tacos from your combination plate.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
So if a nut takes an assault rifle and started randomly shooting up a college campus, and a person who is trained with firearms pulls a pistol and drops him with a single shot, the nut is a victim and the guy who shoots him is a villain?

That's not a correct analogy. In your hypothetical, I think the guy would be given cautious praise for his actions, with grumbles about vigilantism.
I don't really think so. I think that had one of the people in the classroom at the last college shooting pulled out a sidearm and ended the attacker, any grumblings about vigilantism would have been shouted down. It isn't vigilantism to stop a crime in action.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
But for that to be an appropriate analogy to what is happening in Israel/Palestine, the guy would pull the pistol, fire off the whole clip, take out two fellow students, a child, and the guy with the assault rifle, and he'd be condemned for his actions. It may be that he actually saved lives by doing so, but he took some as well, to say nothing of the fact that he became the guy who decides who lives and who dies, and that shouldn't be his choice to make.

Your analogy is wrong. If you want to be precise, it'd be four maniacs in ski masks bursting into the room, three of them covering the room while one shot wildly at everyone. And the student with the handgun taking out one of the non-shooters in the process of taking out the shooter. Again, I don't think anyone would mind.
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David G
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Hi everyone.

To understand what Israel is up against, consider this op-ed piece written by the founder of Hamas, Mahmoud al-Zahar, and published recently in the Washington Post.

Here's some of what al-Zahar has to say:
quote:
A "peace process" with Palestinians cannot take even its first tiny step until Israel first withdraws to the borders of 1967; dismantles all settlements; removes all soldiers from Gaza and the West Bank; repudiates its illegal annexation of Jerusalem; releases all prisoners; and ends its blockade of our international borders, our coastline and our airspace permanently. This would provide the starting point for just negotiations and would lay the groundwork for the return of millions of refugees. Given what we have lost, it is the only basis by which we can start to be whole again.
So before even the first tiny step can be taken in any negotiations for peace, Israel must give up everything in the negotiation.

In other words, Hamas will not begin negotiating for peace unless and until Israel first gives in on every issue.

Instead, Hamas wages unrelenting war. And because it hides munitions, and rocket launchers, and its fighters among the civilian population in Gaza, any response by Israel is likely to harm civilians.

Because Hamas has made it clear that good faith negotiations are not an option, Israel must choose between only 2 options: Fighting back (when doing so is likely to harm civilians), or not fighting back and allowing Hamas to wage its unrelenting war without any resistance.

The horrible truth of any war is that people suffer and die, even civilians. But the difference morally between Israel and Hamas is stark:

1. Hamas hides among civilians, making it very difficult for Israel to wage the war effectively without harming civilians.

2. Israel's military is not hidden among civilians, and yet Hamas directs all of its war efforts against Israeli civilians.

3. Hamas’s demands to end the war and end fighting are impossible for Israel to meet.

4. Israel’s only demand to end the war is for Hamas to stop fighting.

(Just thought I post my 2 cents.)

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
When the Palestinian Arabs persist in their bloody attempts to wipe us out (a kind of ethnic cleansing that doesn't seem to bother you very much, or is it just that you don't believe they can succeed?), they choose their own punishment.

What bothers me (and likely other people here) is that you lump all of the Palestinians together as your enemy.
And what bothers me is that you insist on ignoring the fact that this is a national goal, with a national consensus on means. If the town that the Unibomber grew up in were to change the name of the main drag to Ted Kosinsky (sp?) Street, and put shows on TV telling the townskids that the best thing they could hope to do with their lives, what would be really heroic, would be to emulate him, would you accept that this is a town of evil people?

Just because you can't comprehend the level of evil necessary for people to act this way doesn't mean it isn't real.

quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
That would be like me declaring that Muslims are our enemy because of the actions of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

No, it wouldn't. There are Muslim groups who have condemned those attacks. I don't think they've done enough, but there's no parallel amongst the Palestinian Arabs in the Middle East.
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the_Somalian
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by the_Somalian:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

Maybe others do not feel this way, but it seems to me that starting a thread that includes nothing beyond a link is a mite tacky. It's even more so when it's obvious the topic is volatile. At the very least, some sort of statement on your own position from the get go is warranted.

You've sub sequentially done so, but I'd take it as a kindness if you could do us this favor in the future.

The Somalian has made his agenda perfectly clear. He's started three threads in the last week or so. One used quotes in the title to deny that Israel has any right to exist. One was his Islamophobia thread. And this is the third. You work it out.
See I have not been all over hatrack these past few days, and I did not connect the dots between those specific threads. If King of Men started a thread and simply linked a lecture by Richard Dawkins talking about organized religion I would still think it's tacky.
Think what you want, but you're just preaching arbitrarily defined netiquette. The only thing that's tacky is complaining that someone is violiting some norm that only exists in your head.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Human:
I don't think I'm missing the context, by the way, and I resent being called a fool simply because I don't agree with you. You're advocating ethnic cleansing of a sect of people you consider a threat to your land and your culture and your safety. Does this sound familiar at all? In my eyes, all three groups stand on shaky ethical ground at best.

Resent away. You are young, and idealistic, and that's great. But you don't know what you're talking about. This isn't me "considering them a threat". What the hell do they have to do to convince you that I'm right about them? Wipe out half of our population? Forgive me, but I think our ethical obligation is to stop them before they do that.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by the_Somalian:
... some norm that only exists in your head.

Yes, because the topic list in the forum is just littered with starting posts with only a link and nothing else.

quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
We never forfeited our own claim to our own land.

And I suppose that the people that lived there before Jews got there for the "very" first time have given up all of their claims to their land? [Wink]
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Human
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
[Resent away. You are young, and idealistic, and that's great. But you don't know what you're talking about. This isn't me "considering them a threat". What the hell do they have to do to convince you that I'm right about them? Wipe out half of our population? Forgive me, but I think our ethical obligation is to stop them before they do that.

You have to convince me you're less of a monster than they are. You've just advocated wiping out an entire race of human beings, or at the very least denying them their rights AS human beings. You've just said you don't care if they die. Right now, I'm not convinced that you're any different than they are. But I'm done. You can have your war, and your cleansing, and your final solution. You can have your land. I don't care anymore.
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the_Somalian
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by the_Somalian:
... some norm that only exists in your head.

Yes, because the topic list in the forum is just littered with starting posts with only a link and nothing else.
It didn't take me long to find two examples:

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=052631;p=0&r=nfx

and

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=052519;p=0&r=nfx


This is a petty AND tacky digression IMO.

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Samprimary
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I cast Lisa on this thread

Effect: dull potential for sympathizing with Israel 2 points

Effect: Lisa has 20% chance to slapfight every turn

Effect: 700% lock chance modifier applied to thread

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David G
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Hi, again. I repeat myself just in case my earlier post was missed in the foray above. And this may address some of Human's concerns.

To understand what Israel is up against, consider this op-ed piece written by the founder of Hamas, Mahmoud al-Zahar, and published recently in the Washington Post.

Here's some of what al-Zahar has to say:
quote:
A "peace process" with Palestinians cannot take even its first tiny step until Israel first withdraws to the borders of 1967; dismantles all settlements; removes all soldiers from Gaza and the West Bank; repudiates its illegal annexation of Jerusalem; releases all prisoners; and ends its blockade of our international borders, our coastline and our airspace permanently. This would provide the starting point for just negotiations and would lay the groundwork for the return of millions of refugees. Given what we have lost, it is the only basis by which we can start to be whole again.
So before even the first tiny step can be taken in any negotiations for peace, Israel must give up everything in the negotiation.

In other words, Hamas will not begin negotiating for peace unless and until Israel first gives in on every issue.

Instead, Hamas wages unrelenting war. And because it hides munitions, and rocket launchers, and its fighters among the civilian population in Gaza, any response by Israel is likely to harm civilians.

Because Hamas has made it clear that good faith negotiations are not an option, Israel must choose between only 2 options: Fighting back (when doing so is likely to harm civilians), or not fighting back and allowing Hamas to wage its unrelenting war without any resistance.

The horrible truth of any war is that people suffer and die, even civilians. But the difference morally between Israel and Hamas is stark:

1. Hamas hides among civilians, making it very difficult for Israel to wage the war effectively without harming civilians.

2. Israel's military is not hidden among civilians, and yet Hamas directs all of its war efforts against Israeli civilians.

3. Hamas’s demands to end the war and end fighting are impossible for Israel to meet.

4. Israel’s only demand to end the war is for Hamas to stop fighting.

(Just thought I'd post my 2 cents.)

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