quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: (that's a little preview of set theory for you).
Set theory is a brain-bender. Didn't it drive Cantor crazy?
Correlation is not causation. Judging from some of the set theorists I know, I think your causality arrow may be going in the wrong direction.
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quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: I had a physics test once in college. In many physics problems, they assume that you know certain things, like the Pythagorean theorem, or the value of PI. If you need to know these things for the problem, and you don't, you're screwed - they won't provide it.
On this particular test, there was a problem for which I needed to know the formula for the volume of a sphere. I could not for the life of me remember it. I *did* however know the formula for the area of a circle. Just weeks before that, I had learned about polar coordinates in calculus. And I realized that if I took the formula for the area of a circle, and performed a double integral using polar coordinates, it would give me the formula for the volume of a sphere. It worked, and I got the problem correct.
That was probably my most fulfilling moment ever on a college exam.
EDIT: The point being, T:Man seems to be implying that no new discoveries are being made in the area of mathematics. While mathematics may not be a fertile ground for discovery, it is the tool by which advancement in other areas are made. Math has it's hand in *everything*. It has it's nose in *everyone's* business.
I had a multi-variable calculus final earlier today, the first question asked for a parametric equation of a line formed by the intersection of two planes. I had forgot that you could get the direction for such a line by taking the cross product of the units normal to the planes, so I used linear algebra to solve the problem.
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To those who are criticizing his usage of spelling and grammar...
...check his listed myspace. This is either a fake name created to piss us off(hardy har har), or he's using WtIP's myspace as his own. I vote the first.
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Credit for that one goes to Threads. I wouldn't have thought of checking the myspace had he not mentioned it in a previous post(on the first page of this thread).
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Threads already pointed this out, although more subtly. I just assumed they both were familiar with HHGTTG.
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Subtle goes over my head this time of night.
MEC, maybe. But then why does the myspace profile match up with the existing Hatracker poster who goes by WtIP?
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I just wanted to save people the trouble of getting worked up over something when they might have missed Threads' hint on the previous page. *shrug*
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quote:Originally posted by T:man: multiplication is just addition
Thats only true for integer multiplication.
OOOOHHHH Snap!
I am fascinated that Hatrack is so eager to argue, it has begun an argument on the very basic value of math. Awesome.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: "Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house." -- Lazarus Long
I reckon that makes me subhuman then. I'm better with words.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: To those who are criticizing his usage of spelling and grammar...
...check his listed myspace. This is either a fake name created to piss us off(hardy har har), or he's using WtIP's myspace as his own. I vote the first.
Well, this does help explain why he can't remember whether or not he's taken calculus yet.
Is this a common occurrence at Hatrack? Because to be honest, if I'm going to waste my time talking to someone's imaginary friends, I'd rather it be my own imaginary friends (of which there are plenty), since then I can be stroking my own ego instead of someone else's.
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Wowbagger the infinitely prolonged is a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy character. It's entirely possible that our Wowbagger and this guys myspace have nothing to do with each other.
Wait, how does his myspace match up with Hatracker WtIP?
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Wowbagger the infinitely prolonged is a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy character. It's entirely possible that our Wowbagger and this guys myspace have nothing to do with each other.
Wait, how does his myspace match up with Hatracker WtIP?
That's kinda what I said a few posts up...
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I missed the HHGTTG reference. my bad, Wowbagger, for accusing you falsely. Apologies offered.
Regardless of whether or not it's OUR WtIP, the guy's myspace says he's 26. I'm having a hard time believing this one, myself.
Edit: Nevermind, the entire myspace is either fake, or he's REALLY trying to pull one over on us. "College Graduate, Genius, Proud Parents, $250000 a year."
So, he either needs to give up the dumb act, or actually adhere to the sort of unwritten rules of posting on Hatrack and try to actually use proper spelling, grammar, and whatnot, regardless of laziness.
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Yes, if you are an average Joe (or Jane) who life consists of schlepping to work, spending 8 hours filling out tedious forms, the schlepping back home again, one could see how you might think Math is stupid. On the other hand, if you didn't think Math was stupid and you have applied yourself at it, you might have a job that actually mattered in the world.
Like it or not, Math paves the highways you drive over on your way home, it buttresses the bridges you cross, it construct the building you live and work in, the car you drive is fueld by Math. In every way, everyday, you are surrounded by Math. Without it, we would be living in caves and surviving on raw meat and contaminated water.
Further Math teaches you a systematic method of problem solving that can be applied to any aspect or your life; tangible and intangible.
Sean Monahan, above, gives us a perfect illustration of problems solving using Mathematical Method. She/he is confronted with a problem to which he/she does not know the solution. So, using standard mathematical methods, he/she arranges the knowledge he/she does have, and determines how that can be applied to the solution.
She chose one method, but there is another; to realize that if you take a triangle that represents half the vertical cone and rotate that triangle 360 degrees, the result not only gives you the formula, but also gives you the answer.
If you aren't experienced in this systematic method of problem solving, then likely you would have never been able to solve this problem without the actual formula.
Here is one of the most thrilling aspect of Mathematics that I encountered in college - Laplace Transforms. Though I'm greatly generalizing, Laplace Transforms rely on the magical Laplace Domain. The Laplace Domain is a magical place where universal problems can be solved.
For example, let's say you are using algebra to solve the feedback loop in an airplane autopilot system. You are going to reach a point where it becomes obvious that the problem can't be solved. So, you jump into the magical Laplace Domain and solve the general and universal equation related to your problem, and low and behold, when you are transported back out of the Laplace Domain, you have the solution to your unsolvable problem.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: "Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house." -- Lazarus Long
Reminds me of the Ravenclaw House motto: "It's not that we're smarter than you, except that it totally is."
I told my husband that quote. He laughed, because not only am I dysgraphic, I also refuse to wear shoes. Next time he complains I'll just remind him that I'm subhuman. Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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"On the other hand, if you didn't think Math was stupid and you have applied yourself at it, you might have a job that actually mattered in the world."
Wow, you're a complete asshole.
I guess the building you're sitting in doesn't matter.
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my myspace is totally fake i made it when i was 12. i wish i really made $250000 a year, and had kids but i'll change it sorry. I thought it was funny.
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I hate math. I prefer words and stories. Poetry and stories are also what made us civilized, but there is a mathematical aspect to music. Still, some people do not have a head for anything other than 2+2. It doesn't make them stupid, it just means their brains think differently. Many of them are probably not so bad at metaphors.
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hee hee hee I started this topic when i was pissed at my math teacher but so many people have posted. Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Still, some people do not have a head for anything other than 2+2. It doesn't make them stupid, it just means their brains think differently.
I'm sorry, but that does make them stupid, in the sense of 'unable to do an intellectual task'.
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quote:The people whose jobs supposedly don't matter built the buildings you live in.
No they didn't... cause the people who built the building your sitting in had to use Math for that. He was refering to people who don't know or use Math with the job that actually mattered... and that's next to no one these days.
I mean, farmers have to use math, builders have to use math, teachers, businessmen, politicians, retailers/salesman, even like housekeepers and such have to use math of some sort or another.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Still, some people do not have a head for anything other than 2+2. It doesn't make them stupid, it just means their brains think differently.
I'm sorry, but that does make them stupid, in the sense of 'unable to do an intellectual task'.
In the majority of cases, I feel like people that don't "get math" aren't trying very hard. Of course, that's their prerogative.
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When I was in college, I started out in the engineering school. Freshman year, I took calc, which was fine. First semester sophomore year, I took diff eq, which wasn't so fine. It twisted my head. At the end of that semester, I dropped out of the engineering school (for reasons having more to do with circuits than math), but I took Engineering Math the next semester anyway, because math had always been my best subject, and I didn't want to feel like I'd been a total failure.
I think I got a D in it. It was an absolute nightmare. And believe me, Fusiachi, I tried hard. But I'd just hit my limit, I guess. So I figure that other people might have different limits.
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Yes, and if you take that limit as x approaches infinity...
Seriously, I think it's a bit unfair to say that people who have trouble with math just aren't trying. Maybe they aren't, and maybe some people are irrationally afraid of a topic they haven't even tried to understand. But I do think that people's brains are all wired differently, and I try very hard not to assume that everyone thinks like me. I have my own deficits for sure. People confuse me Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Still, some people do not have a head for anything other than 2+2. It doesn't make them stupid, it just means their brains think differently.
I'm sorry, but that does make them stupid, in the sense of 'unable to do an intellectual task'.
In the majority of cases, I feel like people that don't "get math" aren't trying very hard. Of course, that's their prerogative.
I fail to see the difference between this attitude, and the attitude that people are overweight or poor because they are simply lazy.
I agree, in that I think we can be defined by what we are willing and not willing to try. However, that's different than what we can or cannot accomplish.
My brothers, father, and husband are a combination of mathematicians, engineers, physicists and programmers. We have all had our IQs professionally tested.
Mine is the highest, and yet I have not successfully completed a simple trig course, and I have been trying for years. My talents lie elsewhere.
Maybe we should select some other skll or talent out there and begin defining other people's humanity based on their possession of that. Maybe we should decide that only charismatic people are really people, and that lack of social success makes a person sub-human.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Still, some people do not have a head for anything other than 2+2. It doesn't make them stupid, it just means their brains think differently.
I'm sorry, but that does make them stupid, in the sense of 'unable to do an intellectual task'.
I totally, completely, absolutely 100% resent that! I struggle on a daily basis with adding and multiplying numbers in my head, or dealing with percentages or, decimals when it comes to putting in my hours. I've always had this problem. I can write poems however, but many of them do not rhyme or have iambic pentameter and I could make up a story in a matter of seconds, again, everyone's mind works differently. It's not laziness either. It's a sort of mathematical dyslexia.
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Resent it all you like. "Mathematical dyslexia" is just a fancy name for "can't do sums", which, sorry, is a form of stupidity. Intelligence is the ability to do intellectual tasks. Arithmetic is an intellectual task. Lack of ability with arithmetic is therefore a lack of intelligence, also known as stupidity. I apply the same reasoning to ordinary dyslexia - a euphemism for "can't read". Just because these forms of stupidity are not correlated with disability in other areas, as we would usually expect, doesn't mean they're not stupidity.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Resent it all you like. "Mathematical dyslexia" is just a fancy name for "can't do sums", which, sorry, is a form of stupidity. Intelligence is the ability to do intellectual tasks. Arithmetic is an intellectual task. Lack of ability with arithmetic is therefore a lack of intelligence, also known as stupidity. I apply the same reasoning to ordinary dyslexia - a euphemism for "can't read". Just because these forms of stupidity are not correlated with disability in other areas, as we would usually expect, doesn't mean they're not stupidity.
It's not a form of stupidity, especially since that's such a rude, impolite and ugly way to refere to it. The fact is that there are plenty of people who are good at math, but couldn't analyze a story or poem to save their lives, does that make them stupid? No. Does having a learning disability make a person stupid? No, it only means that they have a different way of processing information. Referring to a person as stupid will only make them feel like steaming dog crap and make it difficult for them to find and take pride in things that they are good in. Plus, it's a totally outmoded way of looking at things. Math is only one aspect of intelligent. There are at least 8 more aspects of intelligence.
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quote:Main Entry: in·tel·lect Pronunciation: \ˈin-tə-ˌlekt\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin intellectus, from intellegere to understand — more at intelligent Date: 14th century 1 a: the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge b: the capacity for rational or intelligent thought especially when highly developed 2: a person with great intellectual powers
Let us not confuse physical or mental disabilities that make mathematics hard (i.e. inability to properly perceive numbers) with the inability to reason or to understand.
Just as a person who is blind will be unable to paint with beautiful colors unassisted is still able to percieve beauty in his or her own way.
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Dyslexia has a different cause from ordinary illiteracy. However, it has the same effect: To wit, its victim is unable to read. (Or has difficulty reading - there are obviously degrees of this.) Now, illiteracy is considered a shameful thing, and rightly so; but we do not like to assign moral fault for features of someone's body or brain. So if someone is dyslexic, we nod understandingly and do not assign them tasks involving a lot of reading. But stop right there: At this point, we are saying "You cannot read, and we do not expect you to." Well, what is the difference between this and "You cannot think, and we do not expect you to", as might be (implicitly) said to someone with an IQ of 70? Only that we are being a bit more specific.
Analogy: Suppose we were looking at the ability to run quickly. Clearly some people are geniuses at this; other people can't run a mile to save their lives. We don't attach any particular moral significance to this, though, so it's easier to discuss dispassionately. Now consider the guy who was born with cerebral palsy. Can he run fast? No, he cannot. It doesn't matter what the cause of his inability is; the fact remains that he just is not going to be doing any five-minute miles. Dyslexia (either kind) is similar to this: Never mind the cause, if you can't read or do sums, then you can't. And if running fast were regarded as a moral quality, as intelligence is - if 'slow' were an insult in the way that 'stupid' is now - then the cerebral palsy cases would be saying "I'm not slow! It's just that I have CP, you can't expect me to run as fast as those other guys!" No, we don't. But the fact remains that you actually are slow. It is an accurate description.
quote:It's not a form of stupidity, especially since that's such a rude, impolite and ugly way to refer to it.
You prefer euphemisms? Sure. Just tell me which one you like best. Personally I like to know what I am discussing.
quote:The fact is that there are plenty of people who are good at math, but couldn't analyze a story or poem to save their lives, does that make them stupid? No.
Yes. By exactly the standard I used above: Inability to do an intellectual task. You are of course at liberty to assign weights to the tasks, and say "This one is more important than that one."
quote:Does having a learning disability make a person stupid? No, it only means that they have a different way of processing information.
Um, yes. Try that again: What does 'learning disability' mean? "Inability to learn". If you have a better definition of 'stupid', by all means tell us.
You should please note: I am not attaching any moral significance to 'stupid', any more than I do to 'tall' or 'fast'. It's just a description. Perhaps this is the place we are disconnecting?
quote:Referring to a person as stupid will only make them feel like steaming dog crap and make it difficult for them to find and take pride in things that they are good in.
I would not call a child stupid to his face, because if nothing else people do develop at different speeds; but an adult should be able to accept an accurate description and work around his weaknesses.
quote:Math is only one aspect of intelligent. There are at least 8 more aspects of intelligence.
But this is just what I am saying! If you accept nine ways of being intelligent, then necessarily you must accept nine ways of being stupid as well!
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I can't believe you don't realize how stupid and outmoded that sounds. There is so much about the brain people don't know, especially why there are people who can barely dress themselves who know complicated math things and can draw detailed pictures of things they've seen one time. Dang, that's such a simple way of looking at complicated things. No one THESE DAYS even describes people with, say, low IQs (IQ tests aren't even completely accurate) as moron, or imbecile o stupid because it's not only rude, but it's just not totally accurate.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: No one even described people with, say, low IQs as moron, or imbecile o stupid because it's not only rude, but it's just not totally accurate.
Um, yes, they absolutely did. 'Moron' and 'Imbecile' are both terms that originated to describe people with a certain IQ. This is very simple to verify.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: No one even described people with, say, low IQs as moron, or imbecile o stupid because it's not only rude, but it's just not totally accurate.
Um, yes, they absolutely did. 'Moron' and 'Imbecile' are both terms that originated to describe people with a certain IQ. This is very simple to verify.
What I meant to say is they don't, or at least try to avoid doing that NOWADAYS. It's outmoded and very unPC and I like it that way.
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"Imbecile" actually originated as a generic term for bodily impairment or weakness. It goes well back to Classical Rome. (I believe "moron" is newer, though.)
Don't get me started on those old categorisations. Blech. It's crap science the way social Darwinism is crap science.
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Why do we put a moral value on intelligence?
People talk about intelligence as though it is not just something you are born with, but something you earn. When I had my baby, I said I was happy how cute she came out. And my mother in law was horrified that I would give any value to looks because that is just luck and then went into how she wants her grandchild to be smart. She also slammed a bunch of her students who weren't smart but were pretty (and she didn't talk about laziness, but kids who seemed to honestly not get it).
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I don't know. Intelligence is more complex than people who read books and regugitate facts, or even people spelling correctly. There's a subtle kind of intelligence people don't often understand.
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