Basically, the teacher had each child tell this boy what they didn't like about him, then called for a vote. Talk about bullying - from a teacher, no less.
This is disgusting. Whether or not the teacher wants this boy in class, this is so wrong. This has traumatized the boy and probably warped the rest of the class. The teacher has basically taught these kids that it's okay to pick on disabled people or people who act differently.
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If I believed in hell. *sigh* Saying stuff like that would be so much more satisfying if I did.
On a more serious note, I had a sixth grade teacher who wasn't quite that bad, but was also a bully and had sixth-graders as her allies. What a miserable human being.
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I had a 8th-grade North Carolina state history teacher who said, IIRC, "Who wants Mike to shut up?", and about 5/8 of the class raised their hands. I didn't say much else the rest of that day in class, although I admit I did have a tendency to speak up in class.
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8th grade is quite different from Kindergarten and not being able to control your verbosity at age 13 is quite different from being a (likely) highly intelligent and (also likely) bored five year old boy with a social disorder being told that people don't like you as a person.
This is a tragedy.
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That is really horrible. I realize the difficulty of defining emotional abuse but I'm dismayed that the police dismissed this one so quickly. I hope DCF follows through with some more serious action.
A teacher who does this kind of thing shouldn't be allowed to work with young children.
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The kid has to learn sometime. Everybody else in the class manages to function without getting voted out. Still, we don't have all the info yet, do we? We don't know if the teacher has done something like this before, we don't know how long she has been teaching, we've never observed her at work, and we don't really know how this kid actually is. Those factors make a huge difference.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: A teacher who does this kind of thing shouldn't be allowed to work with young children.
Amen.
The child is FIVE. I have been a frustrated teacher at my wits' end with a student, but this is so far beyond the pale it's unbelievable.
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Sigh...teaching was so much easier when you could just hang signs on kids and make them stand on a stool in front of the class.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: A teacher who does this kind of thing shouldn't be allowed to work with young children.
I agree. And steven, you're dead wrong on this one. A five year old with neurological issues needs special tutoring and therapy to be able to fit in with a classroom of neurotypical kids.
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The thing is, it's not just the voted-out kid that is damaged by this - the whole class is affected. There is a group of kids that now think if you don't like someone, it's okay to just tell them and kick them out of the group, instead of trying to get along. I can't even express what I'm trying to say here, but that teacher is basically teaching these kids to be bullies.
When my youngest was in kindergarten, her teacher didn't appear to like her. Cayla has a tendency to be overhelpful, even managing at times. Her teacher didn't appreciate that Cayla is trying to be helpful, and was kind of curt. But the difference between a teacher who is a bit cold emotionally to one student and one who actively goes out of her way to destroy a young ego and create a class of bullies is immense.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Sigh...teaching was so much easier when you could just hang signs on kids and make them stand on a stool in front of the class.
Kate, I'm not sure what point you are making. If it's that things that used to be considered acceptable teacher behavior have (thankfully!) been stopped, then I agree. I'm against whacking kids with rulers, too.
quote:Originally posted by CaySedai: The thing is, it's not just the voted-out kid that is damaged by this - the whole class is affected. There is a group of kids that now think if you don't like someone, it's okay to just tell them and kick them out of the group, instead of trying to get along. I can't even express what I'm trying to say here, but that teacher is basically teaching these kids to be bullies.
posted
Actually, I can buy that it does not quite meet the test for criminally prosecutable emotional abuse. They might win the civil suit though.
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Sorry, Rivka. I was channeling my outrage into sarcasm and making the point that this sounds like something from Dickens or Bronte. Where, even then, teachers that behaved that way were recognized as villains.
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I won notoriety for an essay I wrote in the 9th grade about my 8th grade teacher, who was an unconscionable bully.
She actually created a similar situation in which the entire class raised their hands to say what they didn't like about me, and to offer "constructive criticism." It was a major trauma- but as I recall I didn't cry. Nevertheless, I was scarred.
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I'm pretty worried that this teacher thinks she has authority to kick someone out of school. She sounds mentally challenged.
The only question for me is whether she's evil or just a certain variety of person many of us seem to have run across that is spun into a lather by people with autistic type disorders. I guess we could call them the Bizarro Autistic.
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What was going through the head of the teacher that this would appear as normal behaviour?
I imagine if I knew one of my pupils was diagnosed as autistic, I'd cut the kid some slack. Bad behaviour needs to be addressed, that's true, but with a little empathy.
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Well, as is with the case in many things, what drives them crazy is something in themselves, which they may either recognize or be blind to.
So if the teacher's behavior, which is outrageously inappropriate, is also due to autism, what then?
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Seriously, I'm all for giving opportunities to people with all kinds of disabilities but there are limits. A job that requires heavy lifting will never be an appropriate career choice for a quadriplegic. A job as tech-editor is simply inappropriate for someone who can't spell whether they have dyslexia or not. And someone who has a social disorder that causes them to engage in highly inappropriate abusive behavior, shouldn't have a job as a kindergarten teacher.
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I tell you one thing, I would love to meet the two kids who voted to keep him IN the class.
Either they didn't know what they were doing, tried to be funny, or at five years old recognized this as an evil deed they didn't want to be part of. If it's the latter, I want to hang a medal on them.
As for the teacher, I have no words. In part of my teacher education classes, I had to spend 20 hours observing in exceptional education and spent my time with a young man with Asperger's. Yes, they are annoying at times. Yes they are challenging to deal with, but they are also human beings, who deserve to be treated with respect and dignity and valued for who they are.
This woman doesn't need to be teaching, at any grade level.
And since when does punishment mean going to sit in the nurses office all day? What does that accomplish? Not to mention, I'm sure the school nurse has better things to do than babysit kids who get in trouble.
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The boy's mom was on the CBS Early Show this morning, which was how I found out about this. She said that her son's best friend had voted for him, but the teacher said his name sternly and he changed his vote.
She also said the teacher doesn't think she did anything wrong.
Now, these are both hearsay by a prejudiced party, but the article does say that the teacher confirmed that the incident occurred.
quote:So if the teacher's behavior, which is outrageously inappropriate, is also due to autism, what then?
She should find another career.
The kid is supposedly autistic, not the teacher, in case that was a point of confusion.
I agree though, if you can't deal with asperger's then you can't be a teacher. I've worked with developmentally challenged kids, and it is trying, but nothing would make me conduct a ritual of public humiliation.
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Orincoro, Please read pooka's post which I had simply quoted. No one said that the teacher was autistic, it was speculation on what the appropriate response should be IF the teachers unacceptable behavior were also due to a disability.
Sometimes I really regret the absence of a more robust subjunctive tense in the English language.
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The thing I don't understand is how a person who can't handle disruptive kids or kids with special needs is teaching at all. I mean, in a typical classroom I was told by my exceptional ed professor to expect that 10%-12% of the kids there would have IEP's, or in other words, be part of the special education program in the school. So, you have to be ready to handle people in your classes that have physical disabilities, learning disabilities, emotional and behavioral problems, ADD, and indeed, autism and Asperger's.
If you aren't willing to do that, don't teach. Last time I checked, you didn't get to pick and choose which kids you taught - you don't get to turn kids away because you don't like the way they behave.
At the same time, I understand that kids who are highly disruptive upset the learning opportunities of all students. And, perhaps this particular child would be best served in a self-contained exceptional education classroom away from the general education environment. I can sympathize that perhaps this teacher was at the end of her rope with this child.
Still, she handled it wrong. This is not the way to do things.
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That was so mean. I thought it was bad when a kindergarten teacher yelled at me for asking her to help me with my jacket sleeves I unziped. She made me cry. But at least she said she was sorry.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: For the record, I don't recommend gleaning teaching tips from 19th century literature!
The method you mentioned has been used -- and considered an acceptable disciplinary technique -- considerably more recently than that. Which is probably why I was confused about your initial post.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: I tell you one thing, I would love to meet the two kids who voted to keep him IN the class.
Either they didn't know what they were doing, tried to be funny, or at five years old recognized this as an evil deed they didn't want to be part of. If it's the latter, I want to hang a medal on them.
Amen!
quote:Originally posted by Belle: And since when does punishment mean going to sit in the nurses office all day? What does that accomplish? Not to mention, I'm sure the school nurse has better things to do than babysit kids who get in trouble.
IME, it's less a punishment and more what many schools do with kids that cannot be in class just then (for whatever reason) but who are not getting sent to the principal's office. I don't like it much, but it is better than the schools (all private, AFAIK) that figure the parents should come get their kid immediately.
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When I was a school librarian, they sent the problem kids to me. There wasn't anything else to do with them. Our principal was only there part time. I was concerned with the kids viewing the library as punishment. I also had more than one child misbehave in order to get sent to the library.
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: The thing I don't understand is how a person who can't handle disruptive kids or kids with special needs is teaching at all.
Did you go to a public school in America? Some of the cruelest, unreasonable and angry people I've ever met have been public school teachers and substitute teachers.
Of course, I'm biased, as I was a young boy at the time. And I'm not saying that they were necessarily unjustified in their reactions. But I had many a teacher who knew of no kind way to deal with disruptive students.
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quote:Originally posted by CaySedai: The thing is, it's not just the voted-out kid that is damaged by this - the whole class is affected. There is a group of kids that now think if you don't like someone, it's okay to just tell them and kick them out of the group, instead of trying to get along. I can't even express what I'm trying to say here, but that teacher is basically teaching these kids to be bullies.
I think this specific act was unconscionable, but I don't see anything wrong with adults voting someone out of an organization where membership is voluntary. You know they say, "Misery loves company", and I'm all for not being around miserable people.
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The child was not officially diagnosed with a mental illness so it is reasonable to expect (and demand) "normal" behavior. Of course that doesn't justify the punishment which, according to the testimony of the child's mother, appears to have caused severe emotional distress in the child (not surprising).
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An aspie kindergardener can be a pain (I know this in the first person; I wasn't exactly the most beloved kid in the class), but this is WRONG. I thought my first grade teacher was kind of borderline, but this makes her look like a shining angel.
Teacher should be fired. Don't care about legal nonsense. If there isn't a law about discriminating against and denying class membership to a kindergardener in a public school, there darn well SHOULD be.
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quote:The child was not officially diagnosed with a mental illness so it is reasonable to expect (and demand) "normal" behavior.
Autism is not a mental illness its a developmental disorder. The school had recommended that this child be tested for Autism earlier in the year so they clearly recognized that this child had problems that were outside the normal range for children of his age.
High function Autism disorders are very difficult to diagnose. I know some families with children with Aspergers and other forms of high functioning autism who spent years seeking a proper diagnosis. That doesn't mean it took years to figure out the child had a developmental disorder, only that it took years to correctly classify that disorder.
Your reasoning and therefore your conclusions are flawed.
Since this child doesn't have an official diagnosis, the teacher and other people at the school could be forgiven for not knowing the best methods for dealing with his problems. But cruelty and public humiliation of a 5 YEAR OLD wouldn't be an acceptable method for dealing with any type of disorder.
This teacher actually shamed this little boys best friend into changing his vote. That's simply appalling.
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This would have been inappropriate whether or not the child had a mental illness, a developmental disorder, any other condition, or was perfectly "normal." And I agree with previous posters that if my kid was one of the other kids in class and I found out about this I would have pulled him out until that teacher was gone. That is not the kind of behavior I want my child to learn and not the kind of person I want as a role model or authority figure. I might reconsider if the teacher apologized to the whole class and explained why what she did was wrong. Everybody has bad days and makes stupid mistakes occaisionally. But if she tries at all to argue that this was a valid disciplinary technique, no way.
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Reasons people who can't handle disruptive kids (or are otherwise not functional adults) might wind up teachers: They were told there would be a high demand for teachers and it would be a stable, secure career. They thought it would be good to have summers off. They figure special kids would go in special ed. They were raised in a sexist environment and the other choices were nurse or secretary.
I'm just listing possible reasons. Not everyone goes into the field they are in because they have an abiding passion and gift for it. There are paths of least resistance that end in being an elementary school teacher.
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quote:The child was not officially diagnosed with a mental illness so it is reasonable to expect (and demand) "normal" behavior.
Autism is not a mental illness its a developmental disorder. The school had recommended that this child be tested for Autism earlier in the year so they clearly recognized that this child had problems that were outside the normal range for children of his age.
High function Autism disorders are very difficult to diagnose. I know some families with children with Aspergers and other forms of high functioning autism who spent years seeking a proper diagnosis. That doesn't mean it took years to figure out the child had a developmental disorder, only that it took years to correctly classify that disorder.
Your reasoning and therefore your conclusions are flawed.
I only had one conclusion and that was that if the child is in a "normal" classroom then he is expected to behave like a "normal" child. I don't see how what you said contradicts that conclusion.
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I'm not sure the relevancy of your comments.
Yes, there are all sorts of reasons that people make poor career choices but the choice for this woman to be teaching a kindergarten class is not hers alone.
If she things this type abuse is appropriate discipline for a developmentally disabled 5 year old, she should not have been given a job teaching kindergarten.
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The company I work for offers anti-bullying programs for elementary schools. At a conference recently I was talking to a counselor about getting our program into her school.
Her response was that it needed more emphasis on teacher bullying, and not just bullying other kids, but bullying other teachers.
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Threads: As has been pointed out, a fairly high percentage of children in most classes can be expected to have IEPs.
So what? A disruptive student is a disruptive student. I've never seen a kid get a free pass for having ADD or some other behavior disorder.
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: There isn't the distinction between "normal" and not "normal" classrooms that you assume.
In my school district there are separate classes for children with severe learning disabilities.
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There is a distinction between a teacher discussing alternative options for schooling with the childs parents and bringing about a social hazing like this.
The first is appropriate, the second is contrary to furthering the goal of helping the child in question achieve social integration.
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