posted
Um... Just because you believe in God does not make you Christian. How is he getting from one to the other? And most Christians I know would decidedly NOT take their business to someone who told those who did not believe as he did to "sit down and shut up." Including me.
Even if I bought Fords. Which I don't.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
That ad is a paraphrased summary of an e-mail forward that was flying around for awhile. With the car stuff added, obviously.
I stirred up a storm by hitting "reply all" and mentioning that "sit down and shut up" did not sound like a very Christian thing to say. One of the friends of the person who sent the original e-mail sent me a blistering e-mail chastizing me for insulting the woman who sent the forward because she is "the most Christian woman I know." Fortunately (since she is one of my co-workers) she thought the whole thing was funny. And after thinking about it a bit she agreed with me on the "sit down and shut up" thing.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I'm sure Ford World HQ is not pleased at this dealership... like Ford doesn't have enough trouble already...
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Yeah that's pretty insulting. Has no bearing on what kind of car I'd buy, but I certainly wouldn't buy one from them. Everyone in my family has a Ford, and we all love them (both my parents got a brand new Focus in the last week).
But I can't imagine what they think they'd get out of spending money on something like that. I can't imagine the Christians who are thinking about buying a Ford who want to insult non-Christians is that big a demographic, and I can't imagine there'd be a big enough difference from the crowd of non-Christians who'd buy a Ford whose business they likely just lost.
I'm betting Ford HQ is pretty pissed about that.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Despairing of the human condition, merely because a few religious people are bigots, and probably have never to their knowledge met an atheist? Come now. This kind of thing tends to backfire in any event; people are often more religious in public than in their hearts, and there might be quite a few in that '86%' who take this as an insult. And in any case, bigotry is curable. By re-education camps and machine guns, if required; but simple time will usually do the trick too.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I'm despairing more at the fact that there's going to be no uproar about this, and Ford won't even acknowledge it, let alone admit that it is bigotry.
I love the irony of using your freedom of speech to tell others to 'sit down and shut up'.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I wouldn't be worried so much about the Ford HQ as other entities invoked in that ad.
Like the Triceratops skull HQ. You do not want to mess with their intellectual property legal team. Whew.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: This kind of thing tends to backfire in any event; people are often more religious in public than in their hearts, and there might be quite a few in that '86%' who take this as an insult.
I actually think that people or more spiritual in private then public. Of course there is a difference between spirituality and religiosity.
I agree with you in that I think most people (religious, spiritual, and atheist) would take offense with this ad. As an ex Mormon with little to no fondness for the church, I can't possibly imagine ANY of my Mormon friends or family agreeing with this ad either on it's intent or efficacy.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
More of an indictment of unfettered capitalism. Get a bigger profit by dealing only with folks who have already proven themselves to be extremely gullible.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Any really really bored atheist in the area with time to kill on a saturday? Go in and act like you're going to buy a car. Suck up several hours of their salesman's time (while they do that annoying back and forth with the manager crap) then, just before you actually BUY the car, say "Oh wait! You run that annoying anti-atheist commercial! I'm not giving you any of my money!" and leave.
It's especially devistating to the salesman who's wasted 2 or 3 hours on one of the busiest day of the week with no commision to show for it.
If you can rope in more salesmen while you're doing this, that's even better.
However, they DO have the right to say whatever they want to say. They can mock atheists just like atheists mock them. And one ford dealer doesn't hurt anyone that much.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
On the principle of free speech, I say let the guy talk. Remember, it's not a sin if you buy a Chevy ... well, it is a sin, but the point is, you don't have to buy a Ford from this guy.
Second, he is an idiot...well, we all knew that though.
Prayer is not banned in schools. What is banned is school organized and enforced prayer. But that horse died after far too many whipping long long ago.
Today, there are organized prayer groups in public schools. In some schools, like minded individuals gather around the flag every morning and pray.
Other groups get together on school grounds (actually, in the building) to discuss religion and pray.
These are all school sanctioned extra-curricular school clubs, and are in complete accordance with law and constitution, as long as they same right to form a club is equally granted to Jews, Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, atheists, and others.
The same is true of The Pledge of Allegiance. Individuals and clubs are free to form and recite this pledge on school property. But the school is in no position to require it or to enforce it.
As to removing or not removing 'In God We Trust' from our money. While some people might make a big issue of this, I think a vast majority of citizens don't really care one way or the other. If your money not saying 'In God We Trust' is enough to cause you to stray onto the path of evil, then likely you were far gone before money ever came into the picture.
But 'In God We Trust' can to some extent be allowed out of historical context. I think, in a recent case involving a monument to The 10 Commandments being placed on public property, the ruling did not ban the 10 Commandments on public property, but only banned it in a certain context. The context of the case in question did not meet that criteria and those placing the monument there were not willing to compromise, so the monument had to be removed.
As far as, 86% of the population believing in God and the other 14% should sit down and shut up, as much as I will defend this person's right to hold and speak that opinion, we don't live in a country where the majority can force tyranny on the minority. Whatever laws or social rules exist, they must be fair and reasonable, and not just the tyrannical will of the majority.
Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Now, since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians who believe in God
Only Christians believe in God?
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: On the principle of free speech, I say let the guy talk.
Nobody has said anything different, unless you count my reference to machine guns. We've said that the guy is an idiot and we hope his idiocy has business repercussions for him.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:They can mock atheists just like atheists mock them.
While I know what you're really saying is that people have a legal right to mock each other, I'm not currently aware of any car dealership out there that's airing stridently anti-Christian radio messages. Are you?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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As to removing or not removing 'In God We Trust' from our money. While some people might make a big issue of this, I think a vast majority of citizens don't really care one way or the other. If your money not saying 'In God We Trust' is enough to cause you to stray onto the path of evil, then likely you were far gone before money ever came into the picture.
It's not a matter of fearing we'll go down the path of evil if we don't have the reminder on our money; it's more the statement implied by removing it that bothers me (that our nation does not trust in God).
That said, that Ford dealer's a jerk, but he's just one jerk. If his tactics earn him more customers, I too will have sad thoughts about the human condition.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:It's not a matter of fearing we'll go down the path of evil if we don't have the reminder on our money; it's more the statement implied by removing it that bothers me (that our nation does not trust in God).
I don't see that at all.
I think this is one of the big problems in many Christians perception of removing endorsements of their religion from the public square. To many people, "In God We Trust" is inappropriate. It should never have been put on our money. Taking it off is a function of this, not an attept to say that we don't trust in God.
Likewise (as has been noted), prayer is totally allowed in school. It is not banned. What is not allowed is authority sponsored and enforced prayer.
These sorts of questions are not a simple matter of yes and no, for or against. There's a central position of neutrality. Not favoring christianity is not equivilent to disfavoring it.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Tom: Of course not. That would doom their business. Too many christians would get offended and there's more of them than there are of us. The only reason this ford dealership can do it is because there will be a few christians who think their rhetoric is cool and specifically buy a ford from them. They're betting they'll gain more christian dollars than lose atheist dollars.
BUT there *are* atheists who make a living mocking christians and making all of us look like jerks.
aspectre: It's more of an indictment of free speech, but I don't want to get rid of THAT either.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: It's not a matter of fearing we'll go down the path of evil if we don't have the reminder on our money; it's more the statement implied by removing it that bothers me (that our nation does not trust in God).
Well, we kind of don't.
America doesn't wait for god to destroy its enemies. America doesn't trust in god to heal its sick and wounded. America is (or is supposed to be) a country ruled by the people, for the people...not under the rule of any particular religion, dogma, scripture or deity.
Individual Americans trust in god. It seems somewhat clear that America, the country, does not. Which is why it should never have been on the money in the first place.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: On the principle of free speech, I say let the guy talk.
Nobody has said anything different, unless you count my reference to machine guns. We've said that the guy is an idiot and we hope his idiocy has business repercussions for him.
Well, that's exactly what I am saying. I'm surprised you took offense at this, but not at my thinking buying a Chevy is a sin (which was a joke, by the way). Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
The atheists need to have a letter-writing campaign to Ford HQ. That's one of the ways we always lose to the Christians, they're motivated to protest any and everything with even the tiniest hint of anti-Christianness.
When people outright insult atheists, we tend to say, "Well, you're a jerk. What's new?"
posted
Did you know that there are people in this country who want all sorts of books out of schools, the separation clause out of the Constitution, and science out of the classroom?
But did you know that 86% of Christians say they believe in tolerance? Now, since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are sensible people who believe in freedom, we at Hatrack wonder why we don't just tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case, then I say that's tough, this is America folks, it's called free speech. And none of us at Hatrack are afraid to speak up. If we don't see you today, by the grace of God, we'll be here tomorrow.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Hey, when I want to think about the important things in life, like Faith, God, and Eternal life I always turn to people I trust--like Auto Salesmen.
quote:Originally posted by dkw: That ad is a paraphrased summary of an e-mail forward that was flying around for awhile. With the car stuff added, obviously.
I stirred up a storm by hitting "reply all" and mentioning that "sit down and shut up" did not sound like a very Christian thing to say. One of the friends of the person who sent the original e-mail sent me a blistering e-mail chastizing me for insulting the woman who sent the forward because she is "the most Christian woman I know." Fortunately (since she is one of my co-workers) she thought the whole thing was funny. And after thinking about it a bit she agreed with me on the "sit down and shut up" thing.
I doubt the woman she thought was the original sender was really was. I believe I've been seeing that email for nearly eight years myself- and I think it appeared on snopes.com quite some time ago as well.
In fact I also recall the letter being posted to hatrack as well.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Individual Americans trust in god. It seems somewhat clear that America, the country, does not. Which is why it should never have been on the money in the first place.
And why it wasn't on the money until fairly recently, as a part of an attack on the first amendment.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: That ad is a paraphrased summary of an e-mail forward that was flying around for awhile. With the car stuff added, obviously.
I stirred up a storm by hitting "reply all" and mentioning that "sit down and shut up" did not sound like a very Christian thing to say. One of the friends of the person who sent the original e-mail sent me a blistering e-mail chastizing me for insulting the woman who sent the forward because she is "the most Christian woman I know." Fortunately (since she is one of my co-workers) she thought the whole thing was funny. And after thinking about it a bit she agreed with me on the "sit down and shut up" thing.
I doubt the woman she thought was the original sender was really was. I believe I've been seeing that email for nearly eight years myself- and I think it appeared on snopes.com quite some time ago as well.
In fact I also recall the letter being posted to hatrack as well.
I didn't mean the original original sender, just the person who sent the original e-mail to me and whose entire address book I returned the snopes link and "not particularly Christian" remark to. Which is what I do with e-mail forwards I find particularly annoying.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Such a claim isn't surprising. If someone calls themselves a Christian but is releasing ads like this one, my guess is that they don't really understand what is supposed to distinguish Christians.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: And in any case, bigotry is curable. By re-education camps and machine guns, if required; but simple time will usually do the trick too.
All camps and gun will get you is bigots that will look you in the eye and lie. Time and some portion of society attempting to get the youth to, at least, question things are the only cure.
Posts: 1458 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: And in any case, bigotry is curable. By re-education camps and machine guns, if required; but simple time will usually do the trick too.
All camps and gun will get you is bigots that will look you in the eye and lie. Time and some portion of society attempting to get the youth to, at least, question things are the only cure.
[Deadpan] But then they might start questioning what I tell them, to wit, the truth about religion, and we can't have that, can we? [/Deadpan]
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Individual Americans trust in god. It seems somewhat clear that America, the country, does not. Which is why it should never have been on the money in the first place.
And why it wasn't on the money until fairly recently, as a part of an attack on the first amendment.
In God we Trust has been part of US coinage since the Civil War.
Inserting "under God" in the pledge was very much a part of the pro-Christian, anti-Communist agenda of the 50's.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
*vaguely wondering how funny people would find it if she suggested rounding up non-Christians into reeducation camps*
I agree that "In God We Trust" isn't an accurate description of how our country behaves. And I think that's a shame.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:On the other hand, United States President Theodore Roosevelt argued against placing the motto on coinage, not because he lacked faith in God, but because he thought it sacrilegious to put the name of God on something so common as money.[9]
I like this guy... was he important once?
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
What I find most interesting is that this Ford dealer is not trying to Evangelize or Proselytize. He is frankly telling everyone who disagrees with him that they don't matter.
He is preaching, inaccurately, to the Choir.
He is seeking not to help others find salvation, but to bolster his own beliefs by proclaiming them loudly and seeing who agrees with him.
"Atheists are bad!" he yells.
When some one yells back that he is correct, he is happy that he now has proof that he is correct.
If you assume that Christianity is correct, and that his faith is the correct faith, it is then his mission to spread that message to those who do not believe. Yet he does not do this. He gathers his faith around him not as a shield to protect himself, but as a sword to strike out at others.
He hordes the love Jesus has shown to him, denying it from those who have yet to discover it. Instead he uses words and faith as a tool to try and be loved by other Christians.
He is a man who has lost his faith, and hopes by displaying it like a fancy suit, others will believe its in his heart. The louder he cries with false impiety, the farther from God he falls.
I don't look at this man with anger, or with fear. I look upon him with pity. I pray that he will find God again.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Yeah, a jerk who becomes "Christian" is like a bully learning karate. Now they just have a new way to hit people.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: He was bully.
He also started National Parks, didn't he?
Careful. TR is my favorite.
I want to read another biography of him sometime soon, but he's a man of fascinating odd differences. By all accounts, from what I've read of his own personal statements, he sounds like a racist. He talked about civilization (white people) and their struggles against the savages (colored people), though that might be a product of the deep effect of the American frontier had on him. But he dined with Booker T. Washington, to the great condemnation of southern elites and politicians. He defended a black postmaster, and appointed a black man to be Collector for the port of Charleston, and they demanded that he withdraw the appointment, to which he declined. Collector for a port was a hugely lucrative post at the time by the way. I'm not sure if it was as lucrative in the 1910's as it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, but I suspect it still was.
He was by many accounts a war monger, pushing for war with Spain, recruiting his own unit to fight them, being a deputy in the Badlands of the Dakota territories, even eventually winning a Medal of Honor for his own personal service in the war and the Battle of San Juan Hill. And yet he also won a Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating the end of the Russo-Japanese War. He also created and sent the Great White Fleet on a tour around the world to represent American might.
He fought nepotism and cronyism, demanding that people get only what they earned with no kickbacks, both in the State of New York, and in the city of New York where he cleaned up police corruption in a city whose police force was considered the most corrupt in the nation.
While a religious man, he was I believe the only US president to NOT take the Oath of Office on a Bible. He oversaw the passing of the meat safety act and the food and drug act, and numerous other provisions to add regulations that make food and workplaces safer than they were before.
He was the first real American conservationist president. He set aside thousands of square miles of US land for national parks and wild life refuges, recognizing the need to protect wildlife and nature alike for future generations.
Edit to add:
Just a little bit to add, since my laptop ran out of power. He took over the building of the Panama Canal and got it done, and put Lincoln on the penny, and appointed the first Jew to a presidential cabinet.
They called, and call him, the American Lion, and I believe it.
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