posted
One of the ironies for Nastia is that her father tied in one of his events and they gave both athletes the gold.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
It seemed the experts and analysts all thought taht Nastia had the better routine. I can't speak to that, since I don't know gymnastics that well, but the tie breaker system is stupid. For vault it makes sense. For this it is unfair and I think Nastia feels good about silver but robbed in general, and I don't blame her.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
It is not even so much about the numbers, its about *complexity*.
I hear people saying things about "the Chinese" or what most Chinese think, not just here but in the media in general and sometimes I have to say I just don't buy it. People sometimes generalize to a startling degree and with pretty sketchy evidence.
If you claim something like "Americans do X", you may get something like "the southerners do this, the New Yorkers are like this ... well not all New Yorkers, and we also have to consider ..." There is nuance. Similarly, if we were discussing religion, there is also the implied point, "well maybe the Christians were like that in the medieval period but how about now?"
Yet somehow when the subject of China comes up, even though the combined population is greater than that of Europe, where there are still people living in a feudal society right next to people that make Donald Trump look humble, people can just say "the Chinese ..." without a trace of nuance. Layer on the fact that many people's parents have experienced events like the Cultural Revolution, grandparents the world wars, immigration back and forth between Hong Kong and mainland China. Add a dash of pretty different culture and values.
So think about what sampling error and what nuance you're missing. Balancing the vocal visa students born with silver spoons in his/her mouth and fully confident in the Chinese system are the Chinese citizens turned cynical by the Cultural Revolution and turning to underground news and rumours. Balancing the second generation Cantonese immigrants returning to Hong Kong to chase opportunities, there are immigrants coming here to avoid politics and the everyday occurrence of corruption. Balancing the rabid nationalists online amplified by a supportive censorship regime are the thousands of protests by rural peasants and those brave enough to voice their concerns about corruption in collapsed Sichuan schools. And for each one of those, there are Chinese people with very similar upbringings and yet a different or opposite perspective. Heck, there are often even foreign expats who are often quite lively and mistaken for Chinese voices (quite prominent in the foreign media bias affair actually)
So watch the simplistic generalizations and brutal stereotypes. When someone says "Chinese people think/do X because of simple factor Y" think about what nuance would be missing if someone said the same thing about Americans and then multiply a couple times.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I think that when you are in another country, Americans do tend to be generalized as overly priviledged bufoons. I'm not much aware of any nuances to how French are classified in America, though whether they are admired or scorned depends on the American in question.
That was crazy about the tiebreaker. They should have turned it into a sudden death showdown! That, or just given two medals. That british gymnast blew my socks off, by the way. She could probably compete with the men on high bar.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
The British gymnast was 10 kinds of awesome. I've never seen that many releases on the uneven bars.
And actually according to recent polls, Americans are fairly highly regarded, whereas the French are pretty disliked overall. Most of that comes down to money though. Americans are big spenders and big tippers because they rarely go on vacation, so they spend a lot all at once. The French on the other hand get like six weeks vacation, so they bargain shop and cheap their way through each trip, stiffing people along the way. And in general Americans are actually considered fairly polite, while French people are considered somewhat rude.
But I don't think either of those, regarding politeness and rudeness, are the rule. I think the truth is somewhere in between.
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posted
Mucus I don't know what the deal is but I am seriously contemplating the idea that you may possess astounding and completely innocent post-eating qualities that cause my lappy to wink out whenever I try to compose an elegant and respectful reply to your post. Twice in a row. On two different days.
posted
I don't care what the color of the medal is that the American women's gymnastics team is wearing - in my heart it's gold. I believe they earned gold because they performed like champions, were good sports and gracious competitors, and they were within the rules. There is little doubt in my mind, with all the paperwork that has been uncovered, that the Chinese were competing underage athletes. They cheated. They got the gold, but they didn't earn it, not really.
If you watched any of the Pan-Am games, you'll see America has some dynamite 14 year olds too. Younger gymnasts are allowed to compete in those games, and we had one young eighth grader that was fantastic. She made floor finals, if I'm not mistaken.
Had we decided to disregard the rules of the competition and just throw our best athletes out there, I feel confident we would have won. But we didn't, we played fair and competed honestly, and the silver is the result. Count me very, very proud to say my country won the silver in that circumstance.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
The gymnasts have passports saying that they are of proper age. So what if up until recently everything listing their ages said that they are 14? Clearly those were all mistakes. The passports say 16, so they are 16.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
This beach volleyball game is just nuts - the rain is crazy and the Chinese team are really pushing May-Treanor/Walsh to some very hard-earned points.
AND THEY WIN! AWESOME! What a match!
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Did you see Haley Ishimatsu interviewed? I wonder why athletes think they have to say "I'm just happy to be here?" I mean, yes getting to the Olympics is a huge accomplishment, but it's okay to be upset and disappointed that you didn't move on - as she clearly was.
Well, I predict great things in her future should she stay healthy.
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posted
Yeah, that was awesome. i think she's trying to look past her present disappointment and say that overall she is/was happy to be at the olympics.
Posts: 655 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I really felt for Ishimatsu during that interview. It was clear from her words that she was trying really hard to give the party line "I'm just happy to be here and compete" but I think it was obvious that she was crushed to not have moved on.
I think that showed a lot of maturity to try and get that out, despite the obvious disappointment she felt.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
The softball final is on right now. The US is behind Japan in the 4th inning 2-0. The US has only won the Gold since softball became an olympic sport.
Make that 2-1. Crystal Bustos just hit a homer. That girl can hit.
Posts: 1766 | Registered: Feb 2006
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On the question of the Chinese gymnast He Kexin’s age, one fact is certain, that is, there is an inconsistency between the local athletic bureau and the central athletic bureau. So, is it that:
1. The local athletic bureau is correct, and the central athletic bureau changed her age to older?
OR
2. The local athletic bureau falsified, and changed her age to younger?
In the eyes of foreign dudes (waiguo lao), so long as the gathered information, when put on a timeline, gives her age as 13 years old (presently 14 years old) first, then possibility 2 has the highest possibility. It shows that in its quest for gold, China will stoop to cheating. If this storyline is pushed forward some more, it can represent that China’s nationalism is grafted in such and such a way onto its totalitarian system, which will be terrifying like so, similar to 1936, etc….
An excellent storyline. But, from my experience in this country, it’s not like this. A greater possibility is, the local athletic bureau changed her age to younger, so she could participate in the Inter-City Competition. In truth, nearly all age-related alterations have happened in competitions internal to China. The goal is for the local sports officials, various levels of athletic schools, and parents to conspire and “rationally” exploit regulations to win more resources, honor, and — the biggest motivator of all — political achievements for the local sports officials and connected entities in the bureaucratic resource allocation game of the sports system.
In the Chinese bureacracy, this game has quietly gone on for years… the widespread extent of which, if one were to inquire, would be startling. It’s just that this time, this game has been exposed on the net and in the media, and has been found out… As can be seen below, He Kexin was a traded athlete in the Inter-City Competition, so the interests involved here are huge. If some mischief transpired, I wouldn’t be surprised…
...
Then the author provides two appendices. The first appendix is a newspaper article on the Inter-City Competition, with a paragraph that states an age-limit band of 13 to 15 years for gymnastics. The article also notes that the Inter-City Competition is mostly a proving ground for the 2012 Olympics.
The second appendix is a partial list of traded athletes between various local athletic bureaus. He Kexin is listed as being on loan for 2 years by the Beijing Bureau to the Wuhan Bureau. Birthday is listed as 1994 in this list, and seems to be essentially the same database that “the foreigners” found online. He Kexin would be useless to the Wuhan Bureau for the 2007 Inter-City Competition, if her real birthday was in 1992, making her over 15.
In fact, in the comments to a prior post, I’ve raised the point that Chinese parents change birthdays of children quite often for a variety of reasons or advantages, to older or younger, hence the possibility that things could go either way with He Kexin. He really could be 16, yet still nobody would want to come out and explain the age changing in local competitions — that’s just another can of worms. Anyway, this certainly isn’t proof of anything nor is it great news. The point is simply that, before jumping to conclusions on something having to with China, it is worth considering the other possilities, and at the least, consider that other possibilities do exist.
Finally, I hope this kind of fudging the formality culture is lost in China. It really is bad for the development of the rule of law.
posted
An amusing anecdote on the cheering behaviour of Chinese crowds by Tim Johnson:
quote: ... I find Chinese behavior in the Olympic stands containing complexities beyond this. For sure, some Chinese would like to beat the Americans in every way possible, and that means rooting for third nations that play against the U.S. teams.
At other times, I’ve seen them root for the underdog. That occurred in a Russia-Georgia beach volleyball match. The crowd was going for the little guy against someone they perceived as a bully.
Then there are the times Chinese root for those who play well. That happened at an Argentina-Brazil soccer game earlier this week. The crowd was for Argentina, which won 3-0.
Then an interesting thing happened: The crowd began chanting, “Xie Yalong, xia ke!" – which means, “Xie Yalong, take a hike!” Xier Yalong is president of the Chinese Football Association and a national whipping boy because Chinese love soccer but can’t seem to put together a decent team.
So there you have it: Sometimes Chinese fans root for the underdog. Sometimes they root for the dominant team. And sometimes they even chant against their own side if it doesn’t live up to expectations. There could be a political message in that.
posted
And good for softball. Part of the reason for softball being kicked out of the Olympics was because no one could compete with the US. The US only got better but so did the rest of the world.
The Japanese pitcher was amazing. She threw over 400 pitches in two days. I can't image how sore her arm is now. Probably nothing a little gold won't cure.
Posts: 1766 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Japan-US softball upset was AWESOME. It was funny reading the Yahoo article , which was very sad and gloomy, and then seeing how yahoo.jp covered it.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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That's awesomeness. Didn't a Muslim woman compete in a swim event a while back in a head-to-toe swimsuit, too? I really loved what she said:
quote:'I hope that my wearing the hijood sports top will inspire other women to see that modesty or religious beliefs don’t have to be a barrier to participating in competitive sports.'
I'd love to see a Mormon woman on the beach volleyball team get accomodation wearing a full top instead of a bikini someday or something. I think it's fantastic that her country and designers from Australia worked together to accomodate her religious beliefs while allowing her to compete. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Jeebus Tapdancing Mozus! Why is everyone going to such huge extremes to "prove" that the Chinese girls are 14 not 16!? Don't they realize they'ld probably be doing something worse like making shoes, or going to rice paddies or :shuddder: middle school?
I have a single response. So what? Who the frak cares? This is probably the best thing to happen for them, the ones that get medals will probably be made for life, give them a break stop nitpicking concentrate on real news and stop looking for sensationalist fluff.
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Blayne, you are so ignorant it is ridiculous. It MATTERS because once again we are ham stringed because WE don't cheat and they do. It isn't a nitpick at all.
Take off the rose-colored glasses, just for a second, and you will see that.
And this is HARDLY going to extremes. The info was there for anyone to see if they just looked.
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posted
Its also kinda interesting, so I pass along tidbits as they come up. I can't say I "care" so much as I'm curious.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I'm not complaining about you, Im just complaining about the media.
I don't know, getting "computer experts" and "forensics specialists" is I think going to extremes.
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Mass media needs to sell stories. Scandals are popular, Olympic scandals where a team gets cheated are pretty good. Canadian media focuses on Canadian athletes who supposedly get screwed by cheating, American media focuses on American athletes who supposedly get screwed by cheating. Time honored tradition. Add in a dash of Chinese vs. American rivalry and you have media gold.
In this case, its almost certainly true that cheating occurred at some level or another which is an added bonus.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'm not complaining about you, Im just complaining about the media.
I don't know, getting "computer experts" and "forensics specialists" is I think going to extremes.
Well accusing a country especially the tender Chinese of cheating is a serious accusation.
The Olympics are supposed to represent the epitome of athletic integrity and prowess.
Sullying that ideal when it is so important to the rest of the world is disrespectful at best, outrageous at worst.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The IOC has officially asked FIG (International Federation of Gymnastics) to commit to an inquiry over the age controversy regarding the Chinese women's gymnastics team.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Someone help me out -- why was the Men's Beach Volleyball gold medal game over when the US had 15 points? I thought the game ended only when one team had at least 21 points and a 2 point margin?
posted
The FIG made that rule and the IOC adopted it for the protection of the gymnasts. It doesn't matter whether you think it should be a rule; it's a rule. If some people are following the rules and some are not that's not a level playing field.
It's like just because someone don't agree with anti-doping rules doesn't mean they don't need to be followed.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: If some people are following the rules and some are not that's not a level playing field.
I think this is where Blayne's argument falls apart the most. It's one thing to say that you disagree with the rule and that no one should have to follow it, but it's an entirely different thing to say that you disagree with the rule and won't follow it, even though everyone else is.
The thing is Blayne, what if Romania, Russia, Japan, America and other traditional gymnastics powerhouses also have really good 14 year olds but instead played by the rules and lost because China didn't play by the rules? You really think that's fair?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
And, as I pointed out above - we do. The US DOES have some good 14 year olds, every country does.
However, I admit we are still going to be behind the Chinese, because USA gymnastics mandates that elite training cannot begin until age 10. That is for the protection of the athletes and their still-growing bodies.
The Chinese begin elite training as early as 3. So, naturally, they are going to have more elite gymnasts who have had more years of that kind of training. Because of that, the ONLY way we can compete with them on a remotely level playing field is if the 16 year old rule is followed.
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How 'bout those indoor men's volleyball players, taking Russia right down to the wire? Another solid match to get the US in another gold-medal volleyball match.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: ... It's like just because someone don't agree with anti-doping rules doesn't mean they don't need to be followed.
Agreed, if only the endless revolving door stream of 'Free Tibet' activists setting up in Beijing, tipping off Western journalists, getting filmed, and then being detained within a few minutes and deported got that message too.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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How 'bout those indoor men's volleyball players, taking Russia right down to the wire? Another solid match to get the US in another gold-medal volleyball match.
They'll be facing our (my) beloved Brazilian team, the defending champions. So it should be a fantastic game. Actually, we'll have another Brazil X USA in women's Volleyball too. It's becoming something of a classic game Posts: 1785 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Yes but I don't think it matters, c'mon if they're good enough to compete they should be able to compete.
You don't see people forcing Sergey Karjakin to not participate in Chess Tournaments.
Chess does not have the potential to do as much damage to children as gymnastics does. This is a rule to protect the girls from what could be called abuse.
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