Though my first thought is, ewwwwwww. No way. I hate gender roles, dresses, all of that stuff. The best things about the 30s, 40s, and 50s had to be the music and the cars. I don't want to escape modern life, and what they are immatating seems to be more of an idealised movie version of the past than the real thing. Folks like me for example would be miserable back then. But, if they want to do that.... I reckon it's enjoyable for them, but a bit.. well.. weird for me, but that's because I hate that sort of thing.
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My mom wasn't that kind of retro, but she also loved knowing that dad could bring anyone home from the office and the house would be clean and there'd be a nice meal on the table. She wrote poetry and did volunteer work, too. I know a lot of women laugh at the idea that you can actually be happy with housework, but some people really are.
Personally, I'm with you. I'd much rather have a job and write novels than sit around worrying about my grout or whatever. But mostly I don't like being told what to do. I won't tell them how to live and just ask that they return the favor. A little less condescention would be nice, but that's just extra.
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I have to say, I would love to live in an immaculate house with home-made cakes and bread and things. I just don't know who's going to provide that. I certainly am a miserable failure at it.
If these women love doing it, what a wonderful home to live in! I think the key is we all have choices now, none of us is forced into that lifestyle, and they are choosing it and not having it dictated to them.
I notice none of them have any kids, which would make it easier to recreate that "perfect" world of the past. And they all admit to "escaping" the real world. One even said she didn't know Tony Blair had been replaced. That's more concerning to me than the dresses and defined gender roles.
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I don't think 24/7 escapism is at all healthy. They're hiding from world events, they all seem to say. They're in hiding from how the world's gone downhill. It seems selfish to build your paradise and then try to pretend that the problems of the rest of the world do not exist. By living in an idealized version of a time, they are also trying to live idealized lives. I mean, this isn't really 30s/40s/50s, not properly. It's the television version. You can't live in a television set just because you think it's nicer.
One wonders what happens if you ask the 30s lady her opinion on the German question, or Madame 1940s when she's going to get a job in a hospital or a factory to support our boys on the front line.
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What I mean is: they say they're living in a simpler time to avoid the problems of today's world. But all they're doing is avoiding the problems of the world, period. The 30s, 40s, and 50s were pretty awful, complicated time: World War, the overgrown threat of Communism, the omnipresent fear of The Bomb--but they're not living in that world. They've just created a pretend world where everything's okay, and I don't see any virtue in that at all. Disneyland's a place to visit, not a place to live.
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quote:You can't live in a television set just because you think it's nicer.
Why not?
I mean really, why not? If it makes them happy to live in a manner they've seen on TV, why can't they?
Now, ignoring the outside world is another thing - I don't think it's wise to live totally with your head in the sand. But knowing what's out there and choosing not to do the things that appear (to them) to make the outside world miserable seems reasonable to me. (If a little weird....)
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To me, living in the TV set IS ignoring the outside world. Lucy and Ricky were never plagued with the specter of atomic death or the rising concern of race riots and civil rights. Sitcom people aren't impacted by the great troubles of their time. It's not that they're choosing not to do the things that makes the outside world bad; they're choosing to shut away a world that's bad at all and live in fantasy.
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Joldo, how does your always plagued with the specter of (fill in the blank) improve the world? Other than griping, moaning, and navel gazing what have you done to improve or impact this wide world you live in? I will go one step above your cynicism. My study of history has taught me the only way peace and justice will exist on Earth is when the human race is wiped off its surface. I suppose better to ignore it than destory it.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: Joldo, how does your always plagued with the specter of (fill in the blank) improve the world? Other than griping, moaning, and navel gazing what have you done to improve or impact this wide world you live in?
They say they choose to live in a different time because this time has too many problems, too many scary things going on that they don't want to deal with. Well, the time they chose had massive problems too--they just choose to ignore them.
Ignoring problems excuses a person from feeling any responsibility for them. It excuses a person from action. As to your quasi-accusation: you don't know what I do in my spare time; you don't know what I do for a living; you don't know whether or not I do any more than just navel-gazing or moaning and griping.
Frankly, I think doing good is far more important than being happy. These people choose happiness over the awareness that might provoke them to do something worthwhile for the world. In most cases, we condemn those who shut themselves away in closed societies and ignore the world's problems for the sake of their own tranquility. How are these any different at all?
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: [QB] I will go one step above your cynicism. My study of history has taught me the only way peace and justice will exist on Earth is when the human race is wiped off its surface. I suppose better to ignore it than destory it.
Well then, at least we can both sympathize with these couples' decision not to breed. I'm pretty unlikely too.
It is not about acheiving success, about making the world finally a good and just and peaceful place. That will never happen. It is about always fighting for that day, always finding the little ways to improve it. We will never win, but we must always struggle--isn't that what Dumbledore's always saying?
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: My study of history has taught me the only way peace and justice will exist on Earth is when the human race is wiped off its surface. I suppose better to ignore it than destory it.
It doesn't HAVE to be like that. Things are improving all the time. Being realistic doesn't mean being pessimistic anymore than it means hiding in an idealised version of the past that didn't exist for everyone. There are good things about the past and bad things just like it is now. It's better to deal with it directly. To actively in small ways try to make things better.
The only thing is, it's so isolating. One couple has no kids because all they can think of is them being offered drugs and being stabbed or something. The real world isn't totally bad There's concerts, music, good movies that aren't cheesy, folks who aren't all drug dealers and thugs and by hiding oneself too much, they miss out on all of that good stuff. Especially missing out on having kids that might think being stuck in the 50s is a bit... odd.
Also, the sex role thing continues to make me bristle.
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For all the lip service given to "What people do in their personal life is their business. If it doesn't hurt others, we shouldn't say have a problem," things like this show that people actually do care a lot what their neighbor does in their private life, no matter what.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: Joldo, how does your always plagued with the specter of (fill in the blank) improve the world? Other than griping, moaning, and navel gazing what have you done to improve or impact this wide world you live in? I will go one step above your cynicism. My study of history has taught me the only way peace and justice will exist on Earth is when the human race is wiped off its surface. I suppose better to ignore it than destory it.
Really? My study of history shows otherwise, an unending cycle is a better then a cycle that ends.
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: For all the lip service given to "What people do in their personal life is their business. If it doesn't hurt others, we shouldn't say have a problem," things like this show that people actually do care a lot what their neighbor does in their private life, no matter what.
I don't know. I doubt I'd see a woman dressed up like someone from the past and say, "Ur WEIRD, look at you, all dressed up like a refugee from the 50s." But I'd probably hate if they forced me into a poodle skirt.
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I think there's always a tendency in humans to think of the past as some idyllic time with no complications and no problems. It's totally untrue, though. All times have their difficulties. All times seem totally crazy to the people living in them, not at all like "the good old days" that are remembered later.
I've read people like Herodotus and Socrates express that same sentiment, that in the past things made sense and were orderly, NOT like today when everything is out of control. It's an idea as old as humanity. But it's untrue, it's just the trick of memory that makes it seem so.
I don't think people who like to play pretend like this harm anyone, but to the extent that their lives are used in a political way to try to show that we'd all be happier with strictly defined gender roles, I think it's nonsense. Of course one is better off if legally allowed to own property than if legally defined AS property. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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"As to your quasi-accusation: you don't know what I do in my spare time; you don't know what I do for a living; you don't know whether or not I do any more than just navel-gazing or moaning and griping."
Your right. I don't. That is why I asked the question, quasi-accusation or otherwise. There are very few people (relatively speaking) who truly have the power to change the world. The rest of us, although doing good is always a good thing in its own right, are in as much of a fantasy world as these women. Even among those who want to "make a difference" there are such cross-purposes and differences of defining what a good society should be that one person's change for the better is another person's idea of decay.
I don't think the past was perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think it was easier in the 40s and 50s for my own ideals to exist. To be honest, I have lived in places where my ideals still exist as the norm, but alway precariously because of the constant challenges made by the current state of society.
"In most cases, we condemn those who shut themselves away in closed societies and ignore the world's problems for the sake of their own tranquility"
Speak for yourself. I have always admired those who create self-contained societies (I can't think of any secular groups who do this)- especially when living in the middle of a pluralistic world. I have great respect for monks, nuns, the FLDS and Amish. I even have a grudging respect for Jehovah's Witnesses for their refusal to participate in politics and holidays. The only reason I don't join my own isolationists (although some say I already have) is lack of money and a group of my own to join. Like I said, there are at least two places (towns) that come very close, but I would need to get a job that pays more than pennies. The job markets are very competitive because I'm not the only one that thinks of them in that way.
ClaudiaTherese, what you quote is one of the things that bothers me about these women. I find them hypocrites in some of the little things they do and say. For instance, the women who said that today's world is too materialistic and yet goes off and buys all these probably expensive to buy or restore products from the time period. Then there is the woman in the 30s who doesn't live like a large segment of women from that era - poor and eating hand to mouth. The depression was real and it effected just about everyone. It seems these women are living the ideal without the costs. To me these women aren't living in a fantasy because they ignore the world or the history they try to emulate, but because they aren't honest with themselves.
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I don't know if I can have much respect for the FLDS... Urg. Warren Jeffs. Especially after these 2 biographies I read. I think I wouldn't mind living in a cave for a bit, but it would get kind of lonely to isolate myself. Especially since the world is so interesting.
Plus, it's not like the Amish are perfect, which is deeply depressing. Some have their share of abuse too.
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Gee, and I thought this thread would be about women who greet their husbands in Rocky Horror Picture Show attire.
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I am a little unnerved by the unabashed self-love of these couples, their determination to absolve themselves of all responsibility for the outside world by creating fictional worlds in which they can roleplay. It's easier for them to do this than to, say, pretend to be elves or vampires all day, but that's only because a lot of people (incorrectly) believe that the world(s) they're describing actually existed once.
What amused me the most was the woman who dared criticize the modern world as excessively materialistic after having taking meticulous (and, one assumes, expensive) pains to surround herself with mint-condition, vintage antiques.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: My study of history has taught me the only way peace and justice will exist on Earth is when the human race is wiped off its surface. I suppose better to ignore it than destory it.
I don't think this is a well-founded claim. How can history account for all of the potential future technologies that might be developed?
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quote:The only reason I don't join my own isolationists (although some say I already have) is lack of money and a group of my own to join.
It is entirely unsurprising that you would want to live in a collective that is isolated from society.
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quote:Also, the sex role thing continues to make me bristle.
I don't understand this, unless you mean it would bother you to live this way. I don't know why it would bother you that they choose to live this way. The point to me is that these women have all the choices in the world of how to live, and they choose to wear dresses and bake pies and let their husbands pump gas. Sometimes people complain about "rigid gender roles" but they're only a problem if you're forced to live them, aren't they? If you look at the options available and say, "No thanks, I like baking pies," then you're not trapped in a gender role.
I do agree that the hiding from the rest of the world is a problem, though. I just don't agree that the method they've used to hide - recreating a TV-version of a previous decade - is any worse than pretending to live a Harry Potter fantasy or whatever.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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If they want to do it, I don't mind, I like baking pies sometimes myself. (with several different kinds of apples, but I fail at crusts) But I can't help thinking about how much I want to be in a relationship, but how insane I'd be if forced to be in a role. Or if I have act..a certain way so as not to intimidate men. I don't know. For me I'd like to not have a role at all. It's confining to me. I just want to do, dress, listen to whatever music I want and no one is stopping me so that is good.
But I hope I don't end up with a very traditional sort of man. that sort of tradition.. urg... It's like big weddings. If folks want to have them, good. But they'd scare me.
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quote:But I hope I don't end up with a very traditional sort of man.
Then you probably won't.
That's good. My camo wearing, heavy metal listening to, shapeshiftery weird ways would probably drive the poor fellow insane.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Quite funny that this article came from the Daily Mail, whose readership mostly hark aftert he good old days of the 1940's; back when you could leave your house unlocked and all your possessions in the garden and not worry. You could go out for anight out, have a three-course meal, see a filma nd still have change for the 'bus home from a ha'penny...
They're all barking mad of course.
Forgive a certain cynicsm, but I bet all this living in the past schtick goes out of the window the moment healtcare issues raise their ugly head. And what about personal hygeine? I don't think so - have you seen a 1930's toothbrush?
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I laughed at the woman who "lives in the 40s" but isn't married to her live-in boyfriend. Hussy. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: For all the lip service given to "What people do in their personal life is their business. If it doesn't hurt others, we shouldn't say have a problem," things like this show that people actually do care a lot what their neighbor does in their private life, no matter what.
I don't think it does. Nobody here seems to be saying that the "retro wives" shouldn't be allowed to do this. I am a proponent of the concept you say is given "lip service" and I while I agree with some of the other posts that they're living in a fantasy world that existed on TV and never in real life, I have absolutely no problem with them choosing to do so.
posted
Odd to focus on values, or gender roles, when it looks like the entire point seems to be playing dress up and collecting nifty stuff. Of course, to be fair, they apparently do also role-play in addition to collect.
I wonder if they try to emulate the diet as part of the "lifestyle." They all talk about baking cakes, but not about what they serve for dinner.
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I reckon it's enjoyable for them, but a bit.. well.. weird for me, but that's because I hate that sort of thing.
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