quote:Nope. If I see someone fly away, I can't prove to you that it happened. You would be well justified in disbelieving me. But that doesn't mean I don't know it happened.
More accurately, you would know that you perceived someone flying away. Since you also know that this is very unlikely, it would not be remiss of you to second-guess your own perceptions in this case.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Fine. Change that to "Nope. If I see someone wearing a brown coat walking down an otherwise deserted sidewalk, I can't prove to you that it happened. You would be well justified in disbelieving me. But that doesn't mean I don't know it happened." The point remains the same.
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Sachiko: I've never really thought of it much. I think people tend to eat it while having the drink. They are sort of jelly-like, harder than jello. They are very easy to suck up the straw and it might be a bit of an acquired taste. I normally prefer the lychee jelly, but the pearls are worth a try.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: And yet everyone here (including MC) knows that I'm very outspoken in my opposition to giving such things the force of law in the US.
You're equally outspoken in your belief that some people deserve to die because your Invisible Space Father seems to have told you that they're in you spot. Even though their view is identical, if opposite.
Listen, MightyCow, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm whistling this post. I think your repeated use of "your Invisible Space Father" and other jibes isn't all that much different from an ethnic slur.
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quote:Fine. Change that to "Nope. If I see someone wearing a brown coat walking down an otherwise deserted sidewalk, I can't prove to you that it happened. You would be well justified in disbelieving me. But that doesn't mean I don't know it happened." The point remains the same.
This is a "tree fell in the woods" argument. If there is only one observer, that observer knows what they saw.
But believing in God, or believing in biblical events, follow different mechanisms than simply being the only observer of an event. People often make the claim that "God has made himself known" to them, but this follows a very different mechanism than sensory observation. Whether it's observation of coincidence, or a cumulative sense that the world is too miraculous, or that god's existence "makes sense," you're not observing, you're just infering a schema.
That may be good enough for you to believe that you know something, but the logical/scientific criteria for knowledge aren't satisfied.
Another way of looking at it is that if it's possible that you are wrong, you don't know it.
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Um, didn't you refer to Islamic suicide bombers as Death Cultists earlier in this thread? If that's acceptable, I have a hard time thinking MC's comment isn't.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Lisa is not asking others to believe her version of truth, she is insisting that her version is true.
Very true. Of course, now I'll get pilloried for not caring if other people agree or not.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: She has no basis on which to support that, other than her own state of belief.
Well... I don't think that's the case. I do think that the basis is involved enough that it can't exactly be given over on an online forum.
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quote:Listen, MightyCow, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm whistling this post. I think your repeated use of "your Invisible Space Father" and other jibes isn't all that much different from an ethnic slur.
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: So it's meaningless when Lisa says, "It was OK for the Jews to kill the Cannanites, because God told them to." Because to anyone else, it wasn't OK. What her words actually mean is, "I think this is OK, for no reason except that I have decided to believe that it is."
Nope. It's not meaningless. You happen to lack the background knowledge to appreciate that, so it is meaningless to you. Particularly because you not only lack that knowledge, but intend to maintain that state of affairs indefinitely. It's the difference between ignorance (which isn't a cause for scorn) and willful ignorance (which is).
But I don't really scorn you much for it, because your opinion really matters so little to me. It's not important enough to make me feel that way.
There's a particular kind of solipsism that makes a person say "If it's meaningless to me, it's meaningless". I'm a little disappointed to see that sort of narrowmindedness on Hatrack.
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I'm just trying to establish intellectual honesty in the conversation.
Heh. Savor the irony.
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: If you can't show it, you don't know it.
Nah. If you can't show it on an online forum while standing on one foot, it might mean that it requires a somewhat more serious study. And I'm no Hillel.
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quote:I'm not sure which point you are trying to make here.
The point is that there is a distinction between knowledge from an external perspective and an internal one. You and I agree that, for instance, Lisa doesn't know that there is a God behind her theology. But she experiences knowing that fact just the same.
I think you have that backwards. At least in my case. I have never, not in my entire life, experienced God or experienced knowing that God exists. It'd be nice, I guess, but it's never happened. I'm convinced of His existence intellectually. Not 100%... maybe 85-90%. Close enough for rock and roll, though. Certainly it's high enough for me to act on it.
quote:Originally posted by MattP: When she says "I know x", she is correct. She has such a high confidence in the proposition x that she is willing to state that it is accurate without qualification.
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Um, didn't you refer to Islamic suicide bombers as Death Cultists earlier in this thread? If that's acceptable, I have a hard time thinking MC's comment isn't.
Really? Insulting someone for thinking differently is the same as insulting a murderer? Note that I didn't use the term "death cultists" for Muslims in general; I used it for the actual murderers.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I think you have that backwards. At least in my case. I have never, not in my entire life, experienced God or experienced knowing that God exists. It'd be nice, I guess, but it's never happened. I'm convinced of His existence intellectually. Not 100%... maybe 85-90%. Close enough for rock and roll, though. Certainly it's high enough for me to act on it.
This is very interesting to me. I would never assert anything with as much conviction as some of Lisa's statements (the Canaanite one, e.g.) if I were only 85 - 90% convinced of their veracity. Unless perhaps if it was something that didn't matter much to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: Now I'm all intrigued and want to try bubble tea. Er, bubble non-tea. Whatever.
What is it like, the big tapioca pearls, after you've drunk it? Do you stab them with the straw and suck up their innards, or do you take off the drink lid and and drink them like the strawberry dregs of a strawberry lemonade? Is it like trying to suck up Jell-O through a straw?
It depends on the size of the boba. (That's what it's called around here, boba, not bubble tea. But same thing. no one here sells it without tea in it, although I know in some parts of the world it exists in herbal or other drink form, but here it's always been tea when I've seen it, but I drank it once before i converted and have friends who love it; I sometimes used to do karaoke with them at a place that sold it, before I married and had kids, or they'd get it when we were out shopping. Anyway, onward with the explaination.) Sometimes you get an extra-large staw, if the boba are pretty small. Sometimes if they're large boba they give you a spoon. Sometimes you take the lid off and drink it becauase they don't give you anything but a regular straw.
I find the texture to be quite like the tapioca pearls in tapioca pudding, maybe a little softer though. Which is why I only drank it once; I hate tapioca pudding and all things with a texture reminiscent of it.
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: When she says "I know x", she is correct. She has such a high confidence in the proposition x that she is willing to state that it is accurate without qualification.
Bingo.
I know you're wrong. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:That may be good enough for you to believe that you know something, but the logical/scientific criteria for knowledge aren't satisfied.
I disagree with the "logical" portion of your statement. As for the "scientific" portion, I'm quite happy to acknowledge this. However, I have never granted science the sole arbitorship of knowledge.
That's pretty much the only reason I came into this thread: I'm not going to concede the definition of "know" to those who would try to claim it solely for their own worldview.
quote:Another way of looking at it is that if it's possible that you are wrong, you don't know it.
I doubt either MC or Tom would agree with this, simply because it would remove the word knowledge from ever being used (see "brain in the box").
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Um, didn't you refer to Islamic suicide bombers as Death Cultists earlier in this thread? If that's acceptable, I have a hard time thinking MC's comment isn't.
Really? Insulting someone for thinking differently is the same as insulting a murderer? Note that I didn't use the term "death cultists" for Muslims in general; I used it for the actual murderers.
See, but I would call his comments highly disparaging, and certainly rude, sure, but I don't think you can get ethnic slur out of it. I could easily see him saying the same thing to Occasional, say, or Jay if he were still around. Insulting people isn't against the TOS. And I didn't whistle your death cultists post, I'm not saying it violates, either. But as far as hate language goes, I think you're walking a much finer line than he is.
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Whenever I've had bubble tea, it's involved a wide straw to suck the pearls and the tea up together. There seems to be a standard size for the pearls so they fit the straw properly. It's definitely an acquired taste. I love it when it's in an ice cream slushie tea ("Icy Swirl") and the pearls start to freeze a bit. Yummmm.
Just be careful if they get stuck in the straw. Blow them back out the other end, DO NOT keep sucking and hoping it will get loose. It will. And tapioca pearls sucked up your nasal passages at high velocity are incredibly painful. Trust me on this one.
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There's a couple of standard sizes; some places around here use the "giant boba" size that is eaten with a spoon. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Do you find that your keeping kosher affects your relationships outside of family?
To some degree. Remember, that's one of the side-effects, as I mentioned.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: It is one thing for Jewish, or non jewish family members to accommodate your needs, but this practice surely guides your life choices in many ways.
I have no idea why you think non-kosher-keeping relatives are different than other non-kosher-keeping folks in this regard, but whatever.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: You couldn't ever share an apartment with someone who didn't keep kosher
Not impossible, but awkward enough that it wouldn't be something I'd want to do for more than a few days.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: you couldn't live in a dorm at a university that didn't keep kosher
Not necessarily. I know people who do it.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: you couldn't visit a country where kosher foods are not available
Did you want a list of such places I've been to? Canned tuna and peanut butter can travel anywhere, fresh fruit and veggies can be bought just about anywhere, and these days there are all sorts of shelf-stable kosher meals available. It does take more planning.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Do you pick your friends according to who will be able to accommodate you?
Yes. Yes, I do. In fact, I send all potential friends a 27-page questionnaire to evaluate their suitability.
posted
The taste of a bubble tea with green tea and plum flavoring--I'm sure this is off, but my mouth is thinking maybe it's reminiscent of azuki bean-filled mini mochi?
(I'm not sure how many hyphens are required for "azuki bean filled mini mochi".)
I'd have to try it; I'm back and forth on the jelly eyeball feeling of tapioca.
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Sachiko, I find azuki bean and plum very different flavors. Personally. The texture is very different from mochi.
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Everyone assumes that the reason why some religious groups proscribe tea and coffee is because of the caffeine content. There is nothing in the Bible that proscribes these beverages. Seventh-day Adventists officially discourage use of tea and coffee (though it is not a real high priority) solely because Ellen G. White, whom most SDAs regard as having been a genuine prophet, said we should not use tea or coffee. But she never said why. I doubt that Mormons or very conservative Nazarenes, or whatever, give any specific reasons either. There are also alot of basically secular vegan type "health nuts" who eschew coffee and tea too, for reasons not clearly spelled out. It may be a matter of tradition. Some traditions are rooted in something valid.
Caffeine could be considered unhealthful, but if it is so bad, why did God create so many different kinds of plants that contain it? (In addition to coffee and tea, there are chocolate, cola, mate, gotu kola, and I think betelnut, to name a few.)
Here's a thought: Maybe what is wrong with coffee is that it is always roasted, and the roasting process could produce carcinogenic compounds. As for tea, it may be the curing process that turns the tea leaves black that is the real cause of health concerns. Green tea is exactly the same plant, it just is not cured. And I think it tastes better. White tea is good too, with an even milder taste. Same plant, just younger leaves.
It is funny that discussion of coffee and tea have been a persistent part of a thread about whether sauerkraut is kosher.
As for keeping kosher, I think the advisability of keeping kosher depends upon your reasons for it. Orthodox Jews probably feel they have to in order to be obedient. Some even seem to revel in how deprived they are, because it helps validate their identity as the favored people of God.
As a Christian, and particularly as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, I believe that followers of Christ are the true inheritors of all the blessings promised to Abraham, because we prove we are the children of faith by receiving the Promised Seed of Abraham. I would suggest, based on this view, that it is reasonable for all Christians to view things like the dietary restrictions in Levitcus 11 as blessings meant to facilitate our health, not as restrictions meant to make us feel deprived and "different." After all, isn't it reasonable that the Creator would know what foods are less desirable than others for human consumption? If God had never given us such counsel in the Bible, I would wonder why not! It is great that the Creator cares enough about us to let us know these things.
Any Jews who find themselves stuck in a strange city with no ready means for providing a kosher meal for themselves, might do well to look up an Adventist family--or better still, if it is Saturday around noon, look up an Adventist church and see if they are having a fellowship dinner after church service. Such dinners are always completely free of any meats deemed unclean by Leviticus 11. They are usually vegetarian, as well. And such fellowship dinners are always free and open to visitors, even non-Christians. Persecution may rise again in the last days. Keep it in mind.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Do you pick your friends according to who will be able to accommodate you?
Yes. Yes, I do. In fact, I send all potential friends a 27-page questionnaire to evaluate their suitability.
There is a waiting list, too. I have been waiting for mine for 3 years now.
That really wasn't too bad of a question, really, at least in my mind. I don't keep kosher, of course, but what people are willing to do for me as a friend DOES factor into how good a friend I consider them. If I was a vegetarian and I had a friend who mocked it and was always insisting we eat at the Outback I doubt I would hang with him very much at dinnertime.
It isn't quid pro quo by any means, but if someone was a really close friend they would have to understand and respect my beliefs. That doesn't mean they could laugh once and a while, but if I thought it was disrespectful I probably would stop being friends with them after a while.
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quote:I doubt that Mormons or very conservative Nazarenes, or whatever, give any specific reasons either.
Nope. That's why caffienated drinks are not forbidden, but decaf coffee is.
Were I to speculate, I could list several substances that are in both coffee and tea but are not in a Coke. But I won't.
Now, because we feel that the spirit of the Word of Wisdom is that we should not become dependent on any substance, many of us do avoid all or most caffiene, or only indulge occasionally. But that's a personal choice.
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quote:Any Jews who find themselves stuck in a strange city with no ready means for providing a kosher meal for themselves, might do well to look up an Adventist family...
I'm almost certain that an Adventist family would not be able to provide a kosher meal to the standards of an Orthodox Jew, for a variety of reasons.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:That's pretty much the only reason I came into this thread: I'm not going to concede the definition of "know" to those who would try to claim it solely for their own worldview.
Who is claiming that knowledge is only possible for their own worldview? I certainly have never claimed to know that God doesn't exist. I don't even think KoM has done that.
quote:
quote:Another way of looking at it is that if it's possible that you are wrong, you don't know it.
I doubt either MC or Tom would agree with this, simply because it would remove the word knowledge from ever being used (see "brain in the box").
I don't think it's necessary to go so far as to question reality or the senses. But I've heard too many people give reasons why they "know" God exists, and what it comes down to is that they "feel" they've experienced God in some intangible way, or merely that "it makes sense" that god exists based on the complexity and beauty of the world, which they take as a miracle. That's enough for belief, even strong belief, but I can't see how it can be taken as strong enough evidence to claim actual knowledge.
How about this? Would you swear to God that you know God exists? What would God think of you if you used his name as an affirmation, if he knows that he hasn't actually given you adequate proof to make any claim beyond the claim that you believe in Him?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: ...And tapioca pearls sucked up your nasal passages at high velocity are incredibly painful. Trust me on this one.
The mental image of how one determined this for the first time is sheer awesome.
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quote:Who is claiming that knowledge is only possible for their own worldview? I certainly have never claimed to know that God doesn't exist. I don't even think KoM has done that.
That's not at all what I meant.
quote:I don't think it's necessary to go so far as to question reality or the senses. But I've heard too many people give reasons why they "know" God exists, and what it comes down to is that they "feel" they've experienced God in some intangible way, or merely that "it makes sense" that god exists based on the complexity and beauty of the world, which they take as a miracle. That's enough for belief, even strong belief, but I can't see how it can be taken as strong enough evidence to claim actual knowledge.
This is what I meant by claiming the word "knowledge" for your own worldview.
Edit: To expand, it's clear that there's a line-drawing function to be made in determining what one "knows" or not. The line-drawing is not, for anyone I've ever met, one that actually encompasses "if it's possible that you are wrong, you don't know it." Therefore the line must be drawn short of no possibility of being wrong.
The position of that line is not one I'm willing to concede to a particular worldview.
quote:How about this? Would you swear to God that you know God exists?
Yes.
Edit: To expand again, because I trust that God knows what I mean by the word "know."
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: How about this? Would you swear to God that you know God exists? What would God think of you if you used his name as an affirmation, if he knows that he hasn't actually given you adequate proof to make any claim beyond the claim that you believe in Him?
I wouldn't swear that, because I do think that God exists, and if I'm right, I don't think He'd be pleased at me swearing something that isn't true in His name. Because I don't know that He exists. I'd be very surprised if it turned out that He didn't, though.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Any Jews who find themselves stuck in a strange city with no ready means for providing a kosher meal for themselves, might do well to look up an Adventist family
Yeah, I don't think so. I'd eat at a Catholic home before I'd eat by Adventists. Because the Catholics wouldn't be under the misapprehension that their practices had anything to do with the laws of kashrut. The very fact that Adventists have this incorrect belief would make them the last place I'd be willing to eat.
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: ...And tapioca pearls sucked up your nasal passages at high velocity are incredibly painful. Trust me on this one.
The mental image of how one determined this for the first time is sheer awesome.
Yeah, my friends thought so too. After I got it out and my eyes stopped watering, I had to smack a few. Laughing at my pain after the fact is one thing, but laughing at me while I'm desperately trying to expel a tapioca pearl from my nose in HURTY PAIN...
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Orthodox Jews probably feel they have to in order to be obedient. Some even seem to revel in how deprived they are, because it helps validate their identity as the favored people of God.
*sigh*
Two strikes. Wanna try again?
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Do you pick your friends according to who will be able to accommodate you?
Yes. Yes, I do. In fact, I send all potential friends a 27-page questionnaire to evaluate their suitability.
Question number one: You are a person who deals well with endless snippy sarcastic remarks.
I'll tell you what. You stop posing "when did you stop beating your wife" questions, and I'll direct less sarcasm in your direction.
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posted
Actually, I make choices based on who can or will accommodate my needs and preferences. I'm probably not going to spend a lot of time at the house of someone who owns a cat, since I'm allergic. I'm squeamish about things like double-dipping food or eating from the same plate so I'm less likely to eat with people who won't make allowances for what is more or less an irrational phobia.
Do you hang out with people who won't make small allowances for things that are important to you?
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quote:Edit: To expand, it's clear that there's a line-drawing function to be made in determining what one "knows" or not. The line-drawing is not, for anyone I've ever met, one that actually encompasses "if it's possible that you are wrong, you don't know it." Therefore the line must be drawn short of no possibility of being wrong.
I'm still not following. It seems like you need to draw a Venn diagram.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: How about this? Would you swear to God that you know God exists? What would God think of you if you used his name as an affirmation, if he knows that he hasn't actually given you adequate proof to make any claim beyond the claim that you believe in Him?
I wouldn't swear that, because I do think that God exists, and if I'm right, I don't think He'd be pleased at me swearing something that isn't true in His name. Because I don't know that He exists. I'd be very surprised if it turned out that He didn't, though.
It seems that Lisa and I are using the same definition of "know." And it seems to be perfectly reasonable to believe something without actual knowledge, provided you've thought it through based on the information you've got.
I have two problems with Dag's definition. First, I don't understand it. And second, each time he explains it, I interpret his definition as being intellectually dishonest, except that I'm not sure he's ever actually described it, only implied that it's a definition that makes sense to him. Dag is pretty good with words. It seems to me like he ought to be able to come up with a description that actually explains his position.
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I don't think it is. Let me be clear, I don't think you're being intellectually dishonest. I think you're not explaining yourself well. But I think you're capable of doing better.
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It's also worth noting: there's a difference between how we use the word "Know" in casual conversation and how we use it in logical debate.
When l ask my friend "You know how there's this new Batman movie everyone's raving about?" it's generally implied that what I really mean is "You know how according to all sensory data you currently remember experiencing there's a new Batman movie that everyone's raving about." And usually that's fine. But when you start talking about absolutes and how other people should live their lives, you need to be clear about what is knowledge and what is belief.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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Question for Lisa: you're both adherent to kashrut and a Objectivist by philosophy, aren't you? I'm imagining some tension between the two.
quote: My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
—Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged 35th anniversary
Do you mind if I ask how you reconcile Rand's expression of man's purpose with the decision to obey divine instructions when their purpose/benefit is not clear?
This is an interesting (difficult) problem in my mind, but I might be missing something simple (perhaps you simply believe Objectivism is only applicable in interactions between mortals? Still I'd be interested to know.)
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