posted
Yes, there is a huge difference, but it doesn't matter. A teacher should not discuss their political views if in so doing, they are seeking to influence others. Regardless of whether the students are 5th graders or college grad students.
Two years ago, I had a professor pushing voter registration in a class. Wonderful idea, I think everyone old enough to vote should be registered.
But then he made the comment "I only want you to register if you're going to vote Democrat."
Totally inappropriate, and shouldn't be done. I also had a linguistics professor whose made-up sentences on the board were always political and trashing Bush.
Now, I don't have a problem with these professors being Democrat or liberal, or hating Bush. I'm not terribly bothered by the sentences, either, because it's not as if we had to agree with the sentences in order to get a good grade in the class. I'm more bothered by a professor only wanting students who were going to vote Democrat to register - that one did disturb me (and I reported it to the dean of his department, in fact.)
It's election time, and I know for a fact who my professors are voting for because they've all brought it up one way or another. Again, they can have views, I'm not saying they shouldn't. But, when they try to tell a student who that student should vote for, I think it's crossing the line. Even if you're 19, 20 years old when someone who is authority over you tells you what you "should do" you might feel inclined to listen to them. Especially if no alternative view is presented or allowed to be discussed. I actually heard a classroom discussion on politics where the professor said something akin to "and if you're conservative, just keep quiet, we don't want to hear from you."
If the academic setting allowed for open discussion and all viewpoints to be heard, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the shutting down of other opinions that upsets me.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:As a teacher, I also have a professional ethical responsibility to teach objectively and sometimes that means hiding my personal opinions when I think they will interfere with the students abilities to objectively assess the material.
I work in a private school affiliated with the Episcopal Church - although I should add that I'm not a teacher and not a member of the Episcopal Church. Most of our students are not members of that church either; most are members of other Christian religions, but some have non-Christian backgrounds such as Judaism or atheism.
At our chapel services, starting in the middle school grades, faculty members are encouraged to get up to speak openly about their experiences with religion. This is considered a part of the students' education and for their benefit. Yet you seem to be asserting that teachers, by their profession, have an ethical responsibility not to throw the weight of their position behind a religious viewpoint because they are not experts on which religion is right. So do you think this practice is unethical? Do you think it undermines their ability to teach objectively in the classroom?
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posted
I think, Tres, that it depends on the setting.
It isn't unethical when the students and their guardians have an expectation that such opinions may be expressed-- for example, at a private school. Presumably, students attend there BECAUSE of a certain mindset that that setting cultivates, so it makes sense that religious experiences would be shared there.
But the public school setting has a different set of expectations.
ETA: Obviously, I don't think that the mere presentation of religious or political beliefs by someone in authority to his subordinates is always unethical; I think that it CAN be, when the expression breaks trust with what the subordinates expectations are.
[ October 02, 2008, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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"I tell my physics students my religion. Of course, I don't REALLY have a choice since my district has school on rosh hashanah and yom kippur, and I'm not there those days."
Ev, why did I think you were an atheist? Was I just not paying attention to your posts?
Also, after reading Belle's posts, I'm proud to say that, although I'm from rural North Carolina, there certainly is no prohibition here of any kind, formal or not, against giving students Wednesday night homework. Truthfully, I'm a little surprised at Belle's post, though. I thought I myself was from the dumb-as-a-country-rock sticks. I guess it's all relative.
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I think it is, if a stated goal of the school is to produce free thinkers. If the goal of the school is to indoctrinate, there's nothing wrong with their current approach.
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The stated goal is to produce graduates who are good and knowledgable people.
Why do you think that hearing from faculty about their religious experiences would discourage free thinking? Do you think that, for instance, having a faculty member stand up and speak about his or her experiences fighting off cancer would inherently discourage free thinking about the topic of cancer?
The intention, as I understand it, is to encourage students to think about the topic.
posted
Faculty have power over students minds, tres. we are in a position where it is assumed by our listeners that everything we say carries great weight. When we express our opinion, it encourages students to endorse our particular opinion.
When there are legitimate differences of opinion, faculty can promote free thinking by NOT taking sides.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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You are assuming that encouraging students to enorse a particular view automatically discourages free thought.
When I was in high school I was encouraged to consider Shakespeare a great author, to accept the scientific method to be valid, to understand why the Civil War was about more than simply slavery, etc. But the fact that the faculty took those positions, and wanted us to take those positions, did not discourage us students from thinking freely. In fact, it usually encouraged us to think freely, because (1) teachers explained to us what reasoning led to those positions thus modeling for us how to reason, and (2) it encouraged us to think about things that we otherwise wouldn't bother thinking about. The same thing was true in college... I studied philosophy, and if ever there is a discipline that encourages thinking freely it is philosophy. Yet every single professor that I had, except one, was very specific on where they stood on the issues we discussed in class. But they were always very careful to explain not only why they thought that way but also why others disagree.
I've definitely had classes that discouraged free thought during my education, but the difference in those classes was the way they were taught. Instead of being given reasons for facts, we were just given facts and told they were true. Instead of being asked to explain why they were true, we were just tested on if we remembered them. The teachers did not endorse the things they were teaching us any more in those particular classes; the teachers just taught it all in a far more authoritative way.
So, I don't believe faculty endorsing a position automatically discourages free thought. I think it depends almost entirely on HOW faculty endorse the position. If a teacher says "X is true, period - remember that because you'll be tested on it" then it probably discourages free thought. If a teacher says "I believe X for this reason, but others believe Y - what do you think and why?" then, although it probably still encourages students to agree with the teacher, it also teaches free thought.
Anecdotally... Once they get to ninth grade or above, the students themselves are asked to speak about their own religious experiences. According to the chaplain, the overwhelming favorite topic they choose to discuss is skepticism - why they aren't sure if God exists or that their particular religion is true.
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posted
"You are assuming that encouraging students to enorse a particular view automatically discourages free thought. "
Yes. The teacher has coercive power. There may be specfic students who are exceptions to the rule (I doubt it), but teachers can't express an opinion without pushing students either towards or away from that opinion. Neither is acceptable in a public school format.
To clarify, neither is acceptable when discussing religion.
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quote:, I'm a little surprised at Belle's post, though. I thought I myself was from the dumb-as-a-country-rock sticks.
Insulting the area where I live, raise my children, and hope to work does not endear you to me. Probably you don't care. But, perhaps you might consider that the informal practice of no homework on Wednesday is a recognition that many families in this area are protestant, and attend church on Wednesdays, and there is no need to unnecessarily burden those kids and families with the stress of homework on a night when they plan to worship.
In other words, in stead of being dumb hicks, maybe the teachers grasp that learning does not suffer if homework is not assigned on Wednesdays and in fact it might benefit all concerned if kids don't come into school bleary eyed on Thursday morning because they had to stay up late to finish homework after church.
I'd much rather live in an area where teachers are aware that kids' lives don't end when they leave the school building, and where it serves to be cognizant of what affects their students outside the school walls. In other words, it pays for me, as a teacher, to understand something of the culture of the overwhelming majority of my students. Not only that, it fosters a good relationship with their parents, and with the community as a whole. That, I would think, should be a goal of teachers. YOu do after all, teach people - not automatons who shut down when they leave school. You teach kids, and you impact families and communities, and you should be cognizant of that.
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All my homework is 3-4 day homework, for just that reason. If a kid is busy one night, he does it the next. The homework is slightly longer then if it were for just one night, but you got a track meet that day? Fine. You can run in your track meet and do the homework the next day.
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I have no problem with it. Not assigning homework on Wednesdays is no different than not assigning tests on Yom Kippur.
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What's so special about Wednesday nights? At my high school not even Thanksgiving was sacred....
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I think you should tell them, because your basic views will color your class whether you tell them explicitly or not.
I do this with my classes, on topics like this: I tell them, so they can be aware of my bias and discount it, rather than have it work on them unawares. The point of telling them is not to make my viewpoint the center of discussion, but to *prevent* it from being, by getting it out of the way. (I present it that way, too, which makes it clear I'm not looking for converts.) I'm teaching college classes, so it's different, but I still cringe to think that junior high students might be swayed by bias like the music teacher's rather than learn to deal with it up front.
In essence, I present them with 2 Qaz's: the biased one, and the moderator, so they can know they have to pay attention to the moderator but not the biased one.
[ October 03, 2008, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Qaz ]
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"Insulting the area where I live, raise my children, and hope to work does not endear you to me. Probably you don't care."
So are all the school buses in your county short?
LOL
OK, seriously, Belle, the behavior of those around you isn't your fault. I don't blame you for being from there, much, just like I hope people wouldn't make absolute judgments about me, either, for being from rural NC. They often did, in college...finding out that someone with my accent was a National Merit Scholar and a fine orchestral musician was and is a shock for some folks. But, more to the point, I think it helps to know where you stand in the world. Your school system is close to one extreme, compared to many others in this country, right? Now you know. I thought you might find that information to be useful.
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Edited for spelling, etc..
[ October 03, 2008, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: steven ]
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quote:Your school system is close to one extreme, compared to many others in this country, right? Now you know. I thought you might find that information to be useful.
What makes you think I need to "know" this? Do you seriously believe I am NOT aware that the conservative Bible belt in which I live is not the same as every other community in America? Do you honestly think I don't understand that the area I am from has a higher concentration of church-going, conversative Protestants than anywhere else? That is why they call it the Bible belt, after all. Unless you weren't aware of that. I can assure you, I was.
quote:So are all the school buses in your county short?
With a comment like that, I think the function of this thread shouldn't be what you should tell your students, but maybe whether or not you should be teaching at all. That type of insensitivity is very unbecoming in a teacher, and rather than unnecessarily educating me on my own community, maybe you should spend time examining yourself and whether or not someone with your attitude and prejudices should be in charge of educating young people at all.
Putting LOL after an incredibly demeaning comment does not make it okay. I would not expect a teacher to stoop to such lows as making "short-bus" jokes. There are people in this online community who have children with special needs and who spend their lives in advocacy for the disabled. This type of crass humor has no place here.
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quote: But, more to the point, I think it helps to know where you stand in the world. Your school system is close to one extreme, compared to many others in this country, right? Now you know. I thought you might find that information to be useful.
Why is it that your attempts to "help" others so often involve insulting people?
You didn't just identify an "extreme," you also gave a profoundly ignorant characterization of that extreme. You're fooling no one here.
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: With a comment like that, I think the function of this thread shouldn't be what you should tell your students, but maybe whether or not you should be teaching at all.
Note that Stephan, who started this thread, and Steven, who you are responding to here, are not the same poster. It reads to me like you might have them conflated.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
"With a comment like that, I think the function of this thread shouldn't be what you should tell your students, but maybe whether or not you should be teaching at all. That type of insensitivity is very unbecoming in a teacher, and rather than unnecessarily educating me on my own community, maybe you should spend time examining yourself and whether or not someone with your attitude and prejudices should be in charge of educating young people at all."
Does anyone remember me ever saying I'm a teacher? I'm not.
Belle, I'm sorry I've upset you. Honestly. It really surprises me that there's somewhere in the U.S. that is that much more religiously conservative than where I grew up and live. You talked about the Bible Belt. That's where I thought I lived...now I'm wondering if I'm even on the Bible suspenders.
In a general sense, my comments are no more insensitive than the beatings and lynchings of civil rights activists in Alabama, etc., many of which have never been prosecuted. There are plenty of known lynchers alive today, who have never been brought to trial.
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quote:In a general sense, my comments are no more insensitive than the beatings and lynchings of civil rights activists in Alabama, etc., many of which have never been prosecuted.
That's holding yourself to a high standard: "I'm insulting, but I didn't beat and lynch you."
Seriously, steven, admit you were being boorish and drop it.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:It really surprises me that there's somewhere in the U.S. that is that much more religiously conservative than where I grew up and live.
Do you even understand that what was objectionable about your post was that you characterized a region where a significant portion of the population goes to Wednesday night church as the "dumb-as-a-country-rock sticks"? I'm not sure how being surprised about the religious practices of those in a region you've never lived in is supposed to be an excuse for such rudeness.
quote:In a general sense, my comments are no more insensitive than the beatings and lynchings of civil rights activists in Alabama, etc., many of which have never been prosecuted. There are plenty of known lynchers alive today, who have never been brought to trial.
They're actually much less insensitive. That doesn't mean they're not rude as hell. I honestly can't tell if you actually mean this crap or if you honestly don't see how crazy it sounds.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Yes. The teacher has coercive power. There may be specfic students who are exceptions to the rule (I doubt it), but teachers can't express an opinion without pushing students either towards or away from that opinion. Neither is acceptable in a public school format.
To clarify, neither is acceptable when discussing religion.
It is unacceptable in public schools for reasons having to do with the First Amendment. I was talking about a private school, though. More generally, I was asking whether hearing a teacher expressing a religious viewpoint would be harmful or helpful for the students, in terms of their learning.
I agree that a teacher giving an opinion can likely influence the students in some way, but I disagree that that necessarily discourages free thinking or that it is harmful for students' ability to learn. It depends on what exactly the teacher is saying, how he or she goes about saying it, and to which age group he or she is saying it - depending on those details, it does not need to be coercive. If a college professor says "I was brought up personally believing in atheism" then it is not coercive. If an elementary school teacher says "You should know that God doesn't exist!" to third graders then it is coercive.
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"More generally, I was asking whether hearing a teacher expressing a religious viewpoint would be harmful or helpful for the students, in terms of their learning. "
Generally speaking, a teacher expressing a religious viewpoint is probably harmful in the same way that expressing a political view point is harmful. The teacher isn't an authority on the subject, but carries the aura of authority, and so the opinion is treated as being spoken by an authority.
Some few kids will take the opinion and research it carefully. but most won't... they'll either take it as obviously correct because the teacher said it, or obviously wrong because the teacher said it.
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posted
See, my problem is not that a teacher has a certain belief.
My problem is not that the teacher convinces the students of that belief, possibly saving souls or doing good along the way.
My problem is that if you say, "I believe X" some students are going to think, "If I don't believe X, or if I don't pretend to believe X, or worse, if I let my belief in Y come out in class, then the teacher will punish me."
I don't think you will punish people of faith in your class, even though you disagree with them.
But I do think that your announced Atheism will force others to hide their faith, talk less in class, and participate and learn less.
Unfortunately there are teachers that would grade on a faith-based curve.
Someone mentioned that teachers gave their opinions in class that "Shakespeare was a great writer." This did not mean that they had to agree, and that they were open to dissenting opinions. However, if you dissented on a Shakespeare final, your grade would suffer.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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It would be foolish to dissent that Shakespeare was a great writer. One cannot deny the impact he has had on Western literature, and by any definition I can come up with for "great" - Shakespeare was great.
Now, that's not to say that everyone will enjoy reading Shakespeare. Some will not. Some just plain don't enjoy reading dramatic texts. Some dislike reading things written in an older form of English. Some dislike tragic story lines and will not like the tragedies, or don't relate to the humor and so discount the comedies.
Our job as English lit teachers is to expose kids to literature they might otherwise not pick up on their own, and if all goes well, to open their minds and help them see a world they didn't see before. All students will not fall in love with the literature we read in class, no matter how good of a teacher you are. But, you have to make the attempt.
My job is not to teach students WHAT to think, but rather how, and then how to express what they feel. If they don't like a particular work, that's fine - but they've got to be able to articulate why they don't like it and back it up. "It's boring" is not good enough. Neither is "It's stupid." But if on a final they wrote an essay detailing why they thought Romeo and Juliet was an unrealistic portrayal of teenage romance and where they felt the plot was weak - and that essay was supported with textual evidence and was well-written - full marks.
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