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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » what makes a country great and patriotism(title changed to reflect conversation) (Page 2)

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Author Topic: what makes a country great and patriotism(title changed to reflect conversation)
ClaudiaTherese
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*grin

I doubt going there is likely for me, especially given all my difficulties in getting a permit to work in Canada, but I'll definitely read up on what they are doing. Sometimes it transfers cross-culturally, sometimes not, but regardless, that's something I'd like to know more about.

---

Edited to add: WHO is fascinating on women's health. I had forgotten this -- looking at issues such as women doing the bulk of cooking worldwide goes with a higher exposure to certain pollutants in many circumstances. (in their "10 facts about women's health")

There are a lot of different ways to measure women's health comparatively, and many more nuanced aggregates take into account sexual abuse, support for pregnancy, etc. The crudest measure, "life expectancy from birth," puts US at 78 in 2006 -- behind Japan at 83; Andorra, San Marino, Switzerland, Australia and Monaco at 82; Canada, Iceland, Israel, Spain, Sweden and France at 81; Germany, Greece, Luxembourg, Norway, Netherlands and Cyprus at 80; Portugal, Denmark, Belgium, Malta, UK and Finland at 79; and tied with Chile, Costa Rica, Cuba, Kuwait, and Slovenia.

A very crude marker, but fascinating! I had forgotten how absorbing this sort of stuff can be. Thanks to the US's role in bringing up the internet to play with all of it. [Smile]

[ October 09, 2008, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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ClaudiaTherese
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And none of this to indicate that I am not admiring of my country and thankful for the many benefits I have obtained by living there. I love it, and I want it to continue to grow better and stronger in all ways. We have such resources in art and literature, so much in natural resources and a rich history, so much to continue building on. That's quite exciting. The journey to keep improving is going to take us many new places while making many new friends. How wonderful!

---

Edited to add: I see part of my role as a citizen to be as thorough, creative, and excruciatingly accurate as I can be about where my country is and where I think it should go. It's the grand market of ideas, the forum of national [and international!] conversation, and 'twould be a lesser life for me not to be as fully engaged as I can be.

Unfortunately, as is said, life is what happens when you are making other plans. [Smile] I'm getting to organize my life now where there will be space for more such conversations and self-education. For a long while, it felt like I needed two of me just to keep my head above water, and more than just that was a luxury.

[ October 10, 2008, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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Mucus
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CT: Ok, thanks for elaborating [Smile]
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ClaudiaTherese
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Delighted. [Hat]

This became the topic of conversation at my house tonight. From David, for what it's worth:

quote:
I thought I'd jump into this fascinating discussion, if it might be permitted. I'm a Canadian by birth. However, as Sara's husband and through three generations of my family's history, I have strong ties and much experience with living in the US. Most recently, I lived and worked in the US for about five years before returning home, to Canada (bringing Sara along with me). I even had a 'green card' for a while.

It might be useful in this discussion to differentiate between the 'admiration' we have have our own or other countries, on the one hand, and our 'patriotism' for our country, on the other hand. We admire our own or another country, or at least many of its people, on the grounds of its accomplishments or other wonderful characteristics. However, we feel patriotic because we simply love and identify with our homeland.

One can admire another nation of people without feeling less patriotic about one's own, and one can feel patriotic about one's own nation without feeling it's the best in any particular or general way. Similarly, I can love and be proud to be associated with my grandfather even though he wasn't the best in the world at anything in particular, but still wonderful to be connected with nonetheless. That doesn't stop me from admiring other men in his generation who were truly excellent in one way or another.

Here's how I feel about the two countries in my life. I think that the US in many ways is indeed the greatest country in the world. And not always because of how it excels at this or that, but more often because it has such a wonderful way of generating humans at their best out of its own conflicts and contradictions. It just so very alive as a human community.

In particular, I see this greatness in the great often stumbling yet brave experiment it is in self-governance. More so, I enjoy of the wonder of America in the music and arts of its slave-descendants alongside those of its Celtic and Latino immigrants. And all this vitality is brought together in dazzling, even if sometimes dangerous, cities. There's no place like it. I admire America (and some other countries) without apology.

But I love Canada. It holds my patriotism, even though I'm often hard-pressed to identify how it outperforms all other nations around the globe. I admire America, and other various other peoples around the world, for their specific respective accomplishments. But Canada is who I am. And I respect that same feeling in Americans (or Scots, or Aussies, or whomever) who feel that where they're from is who they are, as well.

Happy Canadian Thanksgiving.

Dave Brown



[ October 10, 2008, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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ElJay
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[Smile]

Always nice to hear from Dave. [Wave] That's a great distinction.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
CT, looks like Latvia is the place to go according to your list.

I think I'd prefer Norway myself. It ranks lower than Latvia in terms of economic participation, but higher in terms of economic opportunity and political empowerment.


The economic participation score includes both the number of women who are part of the work force as well how equitably they are remunerated for their work. That makes me wonder whether Norway's lower is because fewer women work outside their homes or women in generally get paid less. It would make a big difference in how I interpret the score. If Norwegian families are affluent enough that more women (and men) can choose to stay out of the work force if they desire, that's a plus in my mind but if they aren't paid equitably when they choose to work its a different story.

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Scott R
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Both those places are freaking COLD.

Also, I bet it's hard as heck to get good barbecue there.

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Jhai
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I don't know Norway's economy particularly well, Rabbit, but I do know that in Germany (young) women participation in the workforce is severely & inadvertently constrained by the laws governing companies' requirements for pregnant women and mothers. If you're a young woman in Germany, it can be quite a bit more difficult to get a job than it would be if you were a young man. So women may not be choosing so freely to stay out of the workforce.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
In particular, I see this greatness in the great often stumbling yet brave experiment it is in self-governance.

CT, your sweetheart made me cry.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Both those places are freaking COLD.

I've been saying for over a year now that if Canada was where Mexico is I'd move there in a heartbeat.
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scholarette
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With my sister moving to Canada this weekend, I am glad that people are saying positive things about it.
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MattP
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
I don't know Norway's economy particularly well, Rabbit, but I do know that in Germany (young) women participation in the workforce is severely & inadvertently constrained by the laws governing companies' requirements for pregnant women and mothers. If you're a young woman in Germany, it can be quite a bit more difficult to get a job than it would be if you were a young man. So women may not be choosing so freely to stay out of the workforce.

Norway has very generous mandatory maternity benefits, but I think their paternity benefits are also very good.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
I don't know Norway's economy particularly well, Rabbit, but I do know that in Germany (young) women participation in the workforce is severely & inadvertently constrained by the laws governing companies' requirements for pregnant women and mothers. If you're a young woman in Germany, it can be quite a bit more difficult to get a job than it would be if you were a young man. So women may not be choosing so freely to stay out of the workforce.

I've heard compaints about the same issue in Germany, but you will note that Germany is ranked far low in terms of economic participation than Norway so something is different I just can't tell what. I find that category overall hard to interpret because it incorporates several factors. My comment was merely intended to indicate the difficulty in intrepreting difference in that category because they could arise from either lower pay scales for women or lower employment for women. As you indicate, lower employment for women can indicate discrimination against women in the work place, my point was that it doesn't always. I know many women (and men for that matter) who would choose to stay home and care for children or do art or write or garden if their partner had a high enough income. While such choices aren't unique to women, I think that the biological facts of child bearing will always mean more women choose to take this option than men if it is economically feasible.

[ October 10, 2008, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Noemon
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CT's Dave's letter was fantastic. Very well said.
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The Rabbit
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One of things I really like about the American educational system is that its designed to give everyone a second chance. In so many other countries your educational opportunities are narrowed by one test you take when you are in your early teens. Entrance to Universities is often determined by one exam you take on graduation. And at the University level, your grade in a class or even whole year of study can be based on one exam.

I like the fact that in the US even if you totally screw up and drop out of school, you can still take the GED, go to a community college and then get into a good undergraduate program and a stellar graduate program if you have the ability and apply yourself. I like the fact that one bad choice or even a series of bad choices when you're young, doesnt't lock you into a dead end for life.

This doesn't just apply to the high school drop outs, if you pick the wrong career and hate it you aren't necessarily stuck there for life. It will likely take some personal sacrifice, but I like the fact that in the US you can go back to school when your 30, or 50 or even 70 and change your life if you have the drive to do it. In many places in the world, those options aren't available at any price.

[ October 10, 2008, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
CT, your sweetheart made me cry.

quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
CT's Dave's letter was fantastic. Very well said.

Dave is quite a fan of the US. It has been utterly charming to rediscover my country through his fresh eyes. [Smile]
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Tatiana
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Oh, it's true, I really love our crazy-quilt mixing pot culture.

I really liked Dave's post too, CT.

I love America's individualism, our can-do approach, our eternal optimism, our attitude that no matter what, we can fix it, we can make it work, we can find a better way. I think that's a very American viewpoint and it's uniquely adapted to producing a vibrant living culture that's resilient and strong.

I'm also fond of the religion founded in (or, actually, restored to) the US. =)

I have a question: Does latitude affect the level of development of a country? I'm curious because almost all the countries I loan to are near equatorial regions, and many of the countries my kiva buddies who loan are from seem to be at higher or lower latitudes. There are definitely some exceptions. But I was wondering why that might be. Could it be explained by the patterns of disease? parasites? some human adaptation to warmer or colder weather? Is it even real?

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Noemon
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Have you read Germs, Guns, and Steel, Tatiana?
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Tatiana
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No, does he mention latitude?

After reading more about the book, I remember why I didn't read it. It sounds like the book makes a lot of sweeping generalizations and doesn't have much hard science to back them up with, but the theme of the book seems to be that the fate of societies is due largely to geography and climate. It's an interesting hypothesis, and one that seems to be borne out in the world as it is.

This european way of life that we have is pretty insane, isn't it? Who feels good about the pace? Where does that come from? Is it just the balancing spot between our greed and our laziness? [Smile] </Tatiana wishing she didn't have to get up and go work this Saturday.>

[ October 11, 2008, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

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Danlo the Wild
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We have more people in jail than any other country.

We are the worlds #1 provider of porn.

We consume more illegal drugs than almost all countries combined.

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T:man
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Yes but the fact that I was born here makes up for everything! [Wink]
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Cashew
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Quote:
I think this is the least racist and least sexist country in the world.
Unquote
----------------------------------
As a Kiwi, that statement strikes me as really out of touch. If I can generalise a bit, you guys agonize over having women in prominent power situations, and congratulate yourselves inordinately when you make some progress. The question "Is America ready for a woman/African-American president?" is so much stuck in the 20th century it's not even funny.

How many other countries have had women as their govt leader? In New Zealand we've had two in the last 10 years, one right now.

This isn't meant as an attack. I love America, the idea of what it stands for (equality, defense of the underdog, treasuring democracy, championing the ideal), which I think is the great idea of the last 100 years, but you need to get real about making statements like that.

The reality does not (yet) match the idea.

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Cashew
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Just to expand a bit....
To me the thing that makes America such a great and unique country is its awareness of its greatness and uniqueness, in its desire to spread those ideals to other parts of the world.

It's that attitude though, which strikes some, at least, other countries as at best naive, and at worst arrogant.

In my own country (NZ), and many other countries, its fashionable to 'bash' the US, especially because of Bush, and the whole country tends to get tarred with the same brush, which to me is unfair. Small countries like to see the US as a bully, old countries (i.e. Europe, England) like to see it as gauche.

I don't think it's either of those two things, generally, but displays of overt patriotism which are so much a part of American culture and which are alien to many other western societies traditionally feed those attitudes.

I'm not saying those patriotic diplays are bad, just that many other countries view them as arrogance.

By way of negative comparison, in New Zealand until very recently (last 8-10 years) singing the national anthem in high schools, for instance, was literally greeted with an audible groan from the students. Displays of the national flag in other than official settings were rare. We tend to be fairly self-deprecating, but at the same time very sensitive to outside criticism, and because of our small size and distance from anywhere else have an almost pathetic desire to be noticed and approved. Recently it's become much more acceptable to be a 'proud' NZer, however, and more people, especially younger generations, are more comfortable and willing to exhibit patriotic feelings.

That comes from a newly-discovered sense of security of self, which America has always had.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
Perhaps I should rephrase it to "greatest in some (very important to the people) way". For example, Indians' think that, as the largest democratic country in the world, they're great. Most every country has a claim to something that makes them the greatest at it - and it always matters very much to the people.

Like potassium!
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T:man
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When I think old countries I think China, India, Egypt...
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