Moviewise (director's cut) -- Boromir. And Eowyn. (Can I have two?) Closely followed by the stunning performance for Smeagol/Gollum (in the theater cut).
Bookwise -- oh man . . . impossible to choose! Which book . . . *sigh* . . . Now I'll have to ponder . . .
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shan: It's so difficult . . .
Moviewise (director's cut) -- Boromir. And Eowyn. (Can I have two?) Closely followed by the stunning performance for Smeagol/Gollum (in the theater cut).
Bookwise -- oh man . . . impossible to choose! Which book . . . *sigh* . . . Now I'll have to ponder . . .
Eowyn is fantastic in the books, but awful in the movies. I didn't like what PJ did with her at all.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I liked her in the books, but I also liked her in the movies. What did you think he got wrong about her?
In the books I was also VERY partial to Faramir. I strongly disliked what PJ did to him in the second movie, although I thought his charge was one of the most moving moments in the entire series.
I liked Aragorn as well, and liked how Tolkien let us see that he was still Strider under all of the kingly trappings at the end of ROTK as well.
But I really liked Sting best of all. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: In the books I was also VERY partial to Faramir. I strongly disliked what PJ did to him in the second movie, although I thought his charge was one of the most moving moments in the entire series.
What? Locked his thread?
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I highly suggest the tapes or cd's.
If you are referring to the Robert Inglis version, then I second this recommendation. My only complaint about it is that he actually sings all the songs. And there are a lot of songs. I wish he hadn't done that.
EDIT: I also have an (abridged) audio version produced by The Mind's Eye for NPR. Avoid this one like the plague.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I loved the fact that he sings all the songs. What else should he have done with them? Admittedly the songs can slow down the 'action', but they're part of the Middle Earth landscape and they shouldn't be ignored.
The only thing that disappointed me about the Inglis cds was the fact that he didn't do most of the appendices. I really wanted to hear him read this from Appendix F (one of my absolute all-time favourite passages from LotR):
"They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who are now gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin ..." Appendix F: Part II, "On Translation,"
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: I loved the fact that he sings all the songs. What else should he have done with them? Admittedly the songs can slow down the 'action', but they're part of the Middle Earth landscape and they shouldn't be ignored.
The only thing that disappointed me about the Inglis cds was the fact that he didn't do most of the appendices. I really wanted to hear him read this from Appendix F (one of my absolute all-time favourite passages from LotR):
"They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who are now gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin ..." Appendix F: Part II, "On Translation,"
If you liked the songs, I'd really, really recommend looking into the CDs by a group called the Tolkien Ensemble. Over the course of around 4 cds they put most of the songs and poems of Lord of the Rings to actual music. For the most part, they were very well done. In particular, I liked The Song of Beren and Luthien, The Old Walking Song(they did all 3 versions from the books), and some of the less serious songs such as Sam's Rhyme of the Troll, the Tom Bombadil Songs, etc. Really, I could go on just listing the ones that I really liked, but I'd really recommend tracking these down and giving them a listen.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird? I guess I just think he sacrificed the most and had the least to gain by it. What do you guys an girls think.
Why does that make him your favorite character?
That is a really good question, Lisa. I guess I really don't know. Um... I've always liked the more altruistic heroes as opposed to the more "realistic" gritty variety. But LoTR has a plethora of truly heroic characters to choose from. I guess I like Sam because his only reward for his efforts were to be able too live out the same peaceful life he would have been able to if someone else had shouldered his responsibilities for him. And I think he was fine with it.
O.K. I got it. It's because his real value in the story is expression of platonic love. He was purely involved because of his strong friendship and devotion to Frodo, and it saw him through all of his trials.
I don't think that bonds of friendship like that are represented enough in modern story telling. I remember some of my friends saying that Sam and Frodo's relationship was "a little fagy" (their words, not mine) after watching The Return of the King, and thinking: Man, is it so hard for people to see the deep love that real friendship entails represented on screen? Don't they have anyone that they are that close too, or is their life devoid of a true, down to the last friendship like that.
So, after making everyone read through my entire thought process (sorry ) , I think I can sum it up like this: I like Sam because after all is said and done, he is just a steadfast friend, and I really enjoyed how Tolkien showed how admirable a trait that being a friend really is.
Posts: 278 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
For favorite character I'm gonna go with Elwe/Thingol, and not just because he got the best girl, though that's a big part of it. He also built arguably the strongest and oldest lasting kingdom in Beleriand, goverened fairly, dealt with the semi-guiltless Noldor when they returned, accepted some humans and generally kicked a lot of butt. His death and the end of Menegroth and Doriath were the saddest parts of the Silmarillian to me.
Beorn comes next because he's a shape shifter and had animal servers. That's just cool.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, but like so many of the other kingdoms of Beleriand, it was his own fault that Doriath fell.
At least for other kingdoms, they fell out of mistakes in kindness, like the building of the bridge for Nargothrond that led to its invasion. It was built so they could oppose Morgoth. Or in the case of Turgon. He took in his sister's son, and he ended up giving away the location of the city to Morgoth. Those people failed because of trust in others, whereas Thingol failed because he was greedy (wanted a Silmaril) and kind of a jerk (tried to get his daughter's suitor killed by giving him an impossible task).
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
T:man, have you read that some people think Tom Bombadil is Manwe or even an incarnation of Eru Illuvatar himself? It's quite interesting speculation, because Tom doesn't really fit in anywhere. He's eldest, but who is he? Is he a Maia? A Vala? One of the Ainur? The whole of Arda has a part in the creation story, everyone came from somewhere except Tom.
I think I understand the literary reason for him. He was an invented character of whom Tolkien was fond, he had stories and songs quite apart from the LotR story, and so he just got included. Arda is a place of magic and mystery, where there are beings and things we don't fully understand. It's part of what makes life there so wondrous. Remember the stone giants from The Hobbit? They don't really fit in anywhere either, and seem to have disappeared by LotR time. Maybe they were Trolls of some kind? They're another anomaly.
But it's quite arguable to my mind that he could be Eru Illuvatar. Why bring an entire universe into being and not even experience it from the inside? When I'm a god I'm totally going to incarnate in my universe. Aren't you?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I always thought he was the embodiment of Middle Earth, or the embodiment of nature. I seem to remember that he could not survive against Sauron because Sauron could overpower the earth. But what do I know.
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by T:man: I always thought he was the embodiment of Middle Earth, or the embodiment of nature. I seem to remember that he could not survive against Sauron because Sauron could overpower the earth. But what do I know.
I have read this as one possible theory.
I have also read a theory that Bombadil is an avatar of the reader.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
T:man, I remember when Elrond said that at the council, but it sounded like speculation. Elrond didn't really have any idea, and he was one of the Firstborn who dwelt with the Valar for numberless years. So it seems like if anyone would know, he would. I think they concluded that they didn't really know if he had the power to stop Sauron or not, but that he wasn't part of their story, or something, didn't they? He's not part of the story of the ring.
That fits with an embodiment Middle Earth, or of nature. I'm still learning toward Eru, though. Like our God he doesn't step in and fix everything up for us. He's not inserting himself into our stories all the time. He just enjoys life a lot, enjoys the beauty of everything, and he helps us out a bit from time to time.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lyrhawn, I agree with you to a point. The impression I got from the Sil was that Thingol wanted the Simaril at least as much because it wouldn't be a prize for his kin-slayers as for his own greed.
And I know it sucked what he did to Turin, and if the question is which Tolkein character do you think was most without fault I would have chose Bombadil*, Gandalf or Sam. But I sympathise with the reasons behind his struggle and feel like the rest of what he'd accomplished outweighs that. I'm not so terribly impressed by Thurin anyway. He was strong, determined, loyal and all that, but he really lacked in inter-personal contact and social resolution. Basically he came of as kind of a jerk to me.
*I've always wondered why none of the Hobbits used the song he'd taught them to call for his aid during any of the trouble they got in to. He'd said it'd work anywhere in Middle Earth, right? Also, I believe that he is Ulmo, or at least Osse.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Quoting Tatiana: "Elrond didn't really have any idea, and he was one of the Firstborn who dwelt with the Valar for numberless years."
I'm certain Elrond had never dwelt with the Valar before finally leaving Middle Earth with Gandalf, Frodo and co. He was born in Beleriand, son of Earendil and his Eldar wife (can't remember her name).
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: I'm certain Elrond had never dwelt with the Valar before finally leaving Middle Earth with Gandalf, Frodo and co. He was born in Beleriand, son of Earendil and his Eldar wife (can't remember her name).
I think it says in the Sil that he never and his brother never even set foot on the shore when they traveled with their father.
As for Bombadil, my understanding is that he's the closest thing Tolkien had to an embodied metaphor in Lord of the Rings. As I understand it, Bombadil was supposed to embody a philosophy and mindset that didn't really fit into the LOTR story, but was still considered important and worthy of inclusion by Tolkien.
I don't think there is enough information to say where exactly he fits in the whole scheme of Tolkien's universe, although if I had to pick something I'd say either Eru or an embodyment of Nature or Arda. I tend towards the latter, because of the way he limited himself to a certain geography, but I definitely don't think he fits in with any of the descriptions of the Valar.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:And I know it sucked what he did to Turin, and if the question is which Tolkein character do you think was most without fault I would have chose Bombadil*, Gandalf or Sam. But I sympathise with the reasons behind his struggle and feel like the rest of what he'd accomplished outweighs that. I'm not so terribly impressed by Thurin anyway. He was strong, determined, loyal and all that, but he really lacked in inter-personal contact and social resolution. Basically he came of as kind of a jerk to me.
Actually I don't really mind what he did to Turin. He was actually kind of magnanimous considering Turin killed Beleg, and I think as a father or at least father figure, he was quite admirable in his protection of Luthien (destructive though it was) and his treatment of Turin. I was referring to what he did to Beren.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cashew, after I typed that I stopped and tried to remember if it was true or if I just imagined that such a powerful lord among the elves must have been of the people of the light. But then I realized that if I were wrong, someone would surely correct me so I let it stand. Thanks for the correction.
I remember that Earendil was his father, and that Earendil sailed to the undying lands with the silmaril on his bow, which is the only way he could get there anymore since the fall of Numenor when the world was bent. And that afterward his ship was set in the heavens, and the silmaril is the planet Venus now.
It still seems odd to me that Elrond never was there, though I see that you're right. Galadriel was over there for a long time, of course. Does that mean Elrond is not really her peer? Of all the elves in Middle Earth during the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the third age, which had lived in the undying lands? Glorfindel? Galadriel? Who else?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird? I guess I just think he sacrificed the most and had the least to gain by it. What do you guys an girls think.
Why does that make him your favorite character?
That is a really good question, Lisa. I guess I really don't know. Um... I've always liked the more altruistic heroes as opposed to the more "realistic" gritty variety. But LoTR has a plethora of truly heroic characters to choose from. I guess I like Sam because his only reward for his efforts were to be able too live out the same peaceful life he would have been able to if someone else had shouldered his responsibilities for him. And I think he was fine with it.
O.K. I got it. It's because his real value in the story is expression of platonic love. He was purely involved because of his strong friendship and devotion to Frodo, and it saw him through all of his trials.
I don't think that bonds of friendship like that are represented enough in modern story telling. I remember some of my friends saying that Sam and Frodo's relationship was "a little fagy" (their words, not mine) after watching The Return of the King, and thinking: Man, is it so hard for people to see the deep love that real friendship entails represented on screen? Don't they have anyone that they are that close too, or is their life devoid of a true, down to the last friendship like that.
So, after making everyone read through my entire thought process (sorry ) , I think I can sum it up like this: I like Sam because after all is said and done, he is just a steadfast friend, and I really enjoyed how Tolkien showed how admirable a trait that being a friend really is.
Thanks. That, I can understand.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I remember that Earendil was his father, and that Earendil sailed to the undying lands with the silmaril on his bow, which is the only way he could get there anymore since the fall of Numenor when the world was bent. And that afterward his ship was set in the heavens, and the silmaril is the planet Venus now.
Earendil's sailing to Valinor happened before Numenor was founded. Earendil's sailed to plead for the Valar to assist in defeating Morgoth. After that battle, in which Beleriand was pretty much destroyed, the humans who participated were rewarded with the island of Numenor.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, that's right, Earendil was human. That's why he needed the silmaril to get to Valinor. Wow, I'm forgetting my Tolkien lore. That's scary.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Of all the elves in Middle Earth during the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the third age, which had lived in the undying lands? Glorfindel? Galadriel? Who else?
Galadriel and Cirdan are the only two who come to mind. Glorfindel had never been to Valinor. To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel. The first one died fighting Gothmog during the fall of Gondolin, which protected the exodus of Tuor and Idril from the city.
I'm sure there are others, just none that I can think of that were named.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Oh, that's right, Earendil was human. That's why he needed the silmaril to get to Valinor. Wow, I'm forgetting my Tolkien lore. That's scary.
Well, partly human. He's the son of Tuor and Idril. If I remember correctly, one of the Valar's rules was that they would only intercede in the war if someone representing both elves and men came to ask for help. Earendil, being of both races, fit the bill.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel.
Ooo, that's an ugly can of worms you're toying with.
Yeah I know. I've read the Histories of Middle Earth and I know JRR intended for them both to be the same person. But come on, he was reincarnated after lingering in the Halls of Mandos and then sent back in the Second Age? I think that's just one of a couple possibilities, but the guy DIED fighting Gothmog. As far as I'm concerned, Glorfindel II is the one in Rivendell. JRR even said that if he'd caught it sooner, he would have changed the name. I know there are a few people that break the rules in Middle Earth, but the evidence behind Glorfindel being one of them is thin, and you really have to dig for it, and I think you really have to want it to believe it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel.
Ooo, that's an ugly can of worms you're toying with.
Yeah I know. I've read the Histories of Middle Earth and I know JRR intended for them both to be the same person. But come on, he was reincarnated after lingering in the Halls of Mandos and then sent back in the Second Age? I think that's just one of a couple possibilities, but the guy DIED fighting Gothmog. As far as I'm concerned, Glorfindel II is the one in Rivendell. JRR even said that if he'd caught it sooner, he would have changed the name. I know there are a few people that break the rules in Middle Earth, but the evidence behind Glorfindel being one of them is thin, and you really have to dig for it, and I think you really have to want it to believe it.
I tend to take the same view. Is it really that terrible that a name repeated once within a span of a couple thousand years? I never entirely understood the need to try and shoehorn him in as the same person.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
So far as I can tell, among elves he is the ONLY repeat, which I think is part of why Tolkien insisted that he be counted as the same person. Apparently it was part of the naming convention of elves, that each elf only have one name and it never be repeated. I think that's why after he realized he'd already named someone Glorfindel, and it's not hard to imagine him forgetting since he was such an organizational scatterbrain, he slipped in a couple extra pieces of information, especially considering his treatment of Glorfindel's reincarnation doesn't really jive with what else has been written about what happens to elves when they reach the Halls of Mandos.
I think Glorfindel may have been the original fantasy retcon.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Besides the Silver Tree of Light, Telperion, who isn't really a character per say... I would have to go with Manwe, the Elder King of the Valar. Never gave up on the mortal world.
Second fave would be... mmmm... Fingolfin, High King of the Elves.
Third fave would be Denethor, the much misunderstood Ruling Steward of the Gondorian Empire.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by String: ...I guess I like Sam because his only reward for his efforts were to be able too live out the same peaceful life he would have been able to if someone else had shouldered his responsibilities for him. And I think he was fine with it.
Also you have to consider that he may not have had the opportunity to live out his life peacefully if someone else had gone (and failed to sufficiently help Frodo).
Posts: 369 | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cirdan was a Teleri. None of them who went to Valinor came back to Middle Earth. Cirdan was the lord of those who were on their way to Valinor but were persuaded by Osse to remain in Middle Earth.
Galadriel is explicitly named (in the Silmarillion - her story was being revised when Tolkien died) as the only Noldor leader who had lived in Valinor to not return after the downfall of Morgoth. It's not explicit that none of the other Noldor who remained had been born after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth, but I can't think of another named one.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
