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Author Topic: The Obama Presidency Discussion Thread - JSC Healthcare Address
Samprimary
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quote:
No Decline in Belief That Obama is a Muslim
Nearly One-in-Five White Evangelicals Think So

ahahahahahahahaha
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Lyrhawn
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Huh, maybe it actually says something good about us that we'd vote someone into office that we think is a Muslim even when he isn't.

Granted I don't think that's true, but it's a nice fictitious silver lining.

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Samprimary
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Mainly it just further underscores the fact that there is perpetual subgroup of American evangelicals who exist in a culture that provides them vehement immunity to factual correction.
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malanthrop
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He was a Muslim when he lived in a Muslim country. A Protestant in Hawaii, an athiest in college and a follower of Black Liberation Theology in Chicago. One could assume if he moved to Italy, he'd be a Catholic.

[ April 03, 2009, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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TomDavidson
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If he moved to Florida, would he be an idiot? [Wink]
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The Rabbit
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quote:
As was the case last fall, white evangelical Protestants (19%) and Republicans (17%) are among the most likely to view Obama as a Muslim. Fewer than half in each group -- 38% of white evangelicals and 46% of Republicans -- correctly identify Obama as a Christian.
What is it that renders the opinions of conservative immune to facts, logic and sound reasoning?
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
If he moved to Florida, would he be an idiot? [Wink]

NO, but I am sure you'd treat him like one. [ROFL] [Evil Laugh]
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
The president sending a soft background video to the Iranian's only emboldened them. He is weak in the eyes of the terrorist and we're going to be attacked.

You're a moron and your posting has lowered the overall IQ of Hatrack by 10 points all by yourself.

Good job.

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Samprimary
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Malanthrop is the new Reshpeckobiggle.
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Kwea
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I didn't get along with Resh, but at least Resh was fairly well spoken.
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kmbboots
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Oooooo...?
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Teshi
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I love how Obama's childhood in a Muslim country counts. Even if he was a Muslim at that point (which I do not believe to be true, and I wouldn't care if he was a Muslim now) he was a just a kid. As children, we are prone to switching beliefs quite easily, should the adults around us put up a convincing case. Heck, it's not like it's a huge leap from Christianity to Islam.
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BlackBlade
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Apparently I was a Muslim for the 4 years when I lived in Malaysia as child. Now that I think about it I did go to a mosque once and attend a marriage reception. I also didn't eat pork as it was not really available, I had Muslim friends, I'm almost afraid to keep thinking about this for fear of what else I'll come to realize.

[ April 03, 2009, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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Ron Lambert
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Malanthrop did make a good point about President Obama's religious history. I would ask it differently, though, and perhaps this is really a more relevant question: Does President Obama believe in anything very seriously, really? Besides, perhaps, his own "manifest destiny."

There is no question that his inexperience and perception as being a political light-weight has led hostile world leaders to view him with contempt. Chavez of Venezuela rejected his good-will overtures and called him an "Ignoramus." Iran and North Korea just use him as an excuse to heap more derision on America.

We told you Obama-supporters it would be like this. But no, you thought the whole world would respond to him with stars in their eyes, just like you.

Next, any day now, we will see fulfilled what then Sen. Joe Biden predicted, that within months of Obama's election, some hostile state would test him with some serious, blatant, provocative move on the international scene. Hold your breath, it is coming....

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MrSquicky
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quote:
Malanthrop did make a good point about President Obama's religious history. I would ask it differently, though, and perhaps this is really a more relevant question: Does President Obama believe in anything very seriously, really?
So you believe that visiting other countries while a child makes it so that you don't believe anything very seriously? Or is it only certain countries?
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Malanthrop did make a good point about President Obama's religious history. I would ask it differently, though, and perhaps this is really a more relevant question: Does President Obama believe in anything very seriously, really? Besides, perhaps, his own "manifest destiny."
If by good question, you mean "question based on fallacious data and weak reasoning", then you are correct.

Since when is converting to a religion as an adult a sign that one isn't committed? G.W. Bush converted as an adult, should we also presume that his "Christianity" was only for political gain? The apostle Paul converted to Christianity as an adult after having stoned other Christians, I guess he we should also see him as an opportunist who just saw becoming a Christian as the best way to make a name for himself. We certainly wouldn't remember him today if he hadn't.

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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
There is no question that his inexperience and perception as being a political light-weight has led hostile world leaders to view him with contempt. Chavez of Venezuela rejected his good-will overtures and called him an "Ignoramus." Iran and North Korea just use him as an excuse to heap more derision on America.

Didn't Chavez call Obama an ignoramus after Obama accused him of exporting terrorism?
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Ron Lambert
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The Rabbit, you seem to be claiming that President Obama is a true-hearted convert to Christianity. If this is what you mean, then how do you know this? And I don't mean by anything he has said. Do you know this by anything that he has done, anything he has demonstrated? Does he show he is religious? About any religion?

If he was a true convert to Christianity, then why did he spend 20 years in a church that promotes Black Liberation Theology, and is focued mainly on dissing the "White Establishment"? Is that what you call being a convert to Christianity?

I asked my earlier question seriously. What DOES Obama really believe in? Can you tell me, The Rabbit?

By the way, nobody could be more guilty of basing their thinking on "fallacious data and weak reasoning" than those who voted for Obama.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
... you seem to be claiming that President Obama is a true-hearted convert to Christianity.

Gods, I certainly hope he isn't.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
The Rabbit, you seem to be claiming that President Obama is a true-hearted convert to Christianity. If this is what you mean, then how do you know this? And I don't mean by anything he has said. Do you know this by anything that he has done, anything he has demonstrated? Does he show he is religious? About any religion?
You claimed Obama's conversion was insincere. The only evidence you gave to support this claim was that he didn't convert until after his college graduation. I find that a specious argument.

I do not know Obama personally so I have little grounds on which to judge the sincerity of his beliefs. I have read several statements he has made regarding his conversion and they seem sincere. His public life seem consistent with his professed beliefs.

As a follower of Christ, I am commanded not to judge him on this, as are you. Neither you nor I can KNOW what Obama or any one but ourselves really believes. I believe that in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, a Christian has the moral obligation to presume people believe what they claim they believe.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
The Rabbit, you seem to be claiming that President Obama is a true-hearted convert to Christianity. If this is what you mean, then how do you know this? And I don't mean by anything he has said. Do you know this by anything that he has done, anything he has demonstrated? Does he show he is religious? About any religion?

That's a good point! Why, I'll bet he doesn't even go to church. Thanks for being such an insightful skeptic.
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Teshi
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The day America has an atheist President, that will be a day really worth blogging about.
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kmbboots
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He has shown concern for the poor and for acting with justice. Those traits are not exclusive to Christianity, but are certainly consistent with it.
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Bella Bee
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quote:
why did he spend 20 years in a church
Well, I'd say spending 20 years attending any church, praying, praising, singing hymns etc each week, means that you almost certainly believe in something.
Twenty years is a long time. If you don't believe, why put in the effort?

As for 'dissing the "White Establishment', well, his vicar probably did and does.
But there have been plenty of other churches and spiritual leaders I have come across who also have a bee in their bonnet about some pet cause, be it abortion, or gay people, and while they might rattle on about that in their sermon of a Sunday, they always get back to talking about God in the end. It's sort of their job.

quote:
What DOES Obama really believe in?
Forgive me, I'm a heathen - but I always thought that for Christians, there was a belief that only one being in the universe could know the complete truth of everyone's mind and heart.

What have George Bush, or John MacCain done recently to prove to you without a shred of doubt that they are Christians?

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The Rabbit
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quote:
quote:
What DOES Obama really believe in?
Forgive me, I'm a heathen - but I always thought that for Christians, there was a belief that only one being in the universe could know the complete truth of everyone's mind and heart

Quite honestly, if we are talking about behavior as an indication of Christian devotion, then I have a lot more reason to question the devotion of Ron Lambert than Barack Obama.

By that standard, I'd have a hard time find enough devoted Christians to throw a party.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Chavez of Venezuela rejected his good-will overtures and called him an "Ignoramus." Iran and North Korea just use him as an excuse to heap more derision on America.
Whereas Chavez had nothing but good things to say about Bush...?
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
quote:
What DOES Obama really believe in?
Forgive me, I'm a heathen - but I always thought that for Christians, there was a belief that only one being in the universe could know the complete truth of everyone's mind and heart

Quite honestly, if we are talking about behavior as an indication of Christian devotion, then I have a lot more reason to question the devotion of Ron Lambert than Barack Obama.

*snort*

----
Ron: See look right here,
quote:
By the way, nobody could be more guilty of basing their thinking on "fallacious data and weak reasoning" than those who voted for Obama.
You basically said, "My opposition are all too idiotic for me to really respect their reasoning capabilities."

Why are you even bothering to speak to us, unless you think there is a choir somewhere that for whatever reason is unable to sing along with you? Or do you enjoy besmirching others just to see if you can get them to argue with you?

If there is a heaven where all the just go, I do not think you and I can exist there at the same time as things stand.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
What have George Bush, or John MacCain done recently to prove to you without a shred of doubt that they are Christians?

To answer sarcastically as a caricature of Ron: "They were the Republican candidates."
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Bokonon
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Can we stop answering as "caricatures" of other users?

This stuff is getting just petty, tiresome, and really reducing what has been, historically, a great signal-to-noise ratio at Hatrack.

-Bok

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Samprimary
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Sorry, Bok. If someone says something like

quote:
By the way, nobody could be more guilty of basing their thinking on "fallacious data and weak reasoning" than those who voted for Obama.
then they're offering themselves as fair game by being ugly and flippant over an issue important to people.

I reserve the right to be as callous towards their opinions as they are towards mine.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Sorry, Bok.

. . . and then the rest of the post makes it clear that you're actually not sorry at all.

*sigh*

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Samprimary
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Yeah, I'm sorry I disagree with his recommendation.
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Samprimary
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The one thing he arguably did during his presidency that may have exacerbated the depression was try to manage the deficit during a financial crisis.

Post-Roosevelt, this has largely been shown to be a mistake.

Keynes has ruled the predominant economic theory past that: in a depression, spend.

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fugu13
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That is hardly the only thing he did that may have exacerbated the depression. It was certainly a bad move, though.
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aspectre
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Who he? And from where / how did these apparent nonsequiters originate?
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Ron Lambert
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BlackBlade, perhaps you failed to notice, but when I said
quote:
"fallacious data and weak reasoning"
I was quoting an insult The Rabbit gratuitously made to me, and I was merely throwing it back at him.

About the "judging" thing. This is typical of superficial readers of the Bible, who do not know how to take things in context. True, Jesus said: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Mat. 7:1) However, a few verses later, Jesus also said: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (v. 20) So apparently He did not mean we are not to excercize some intelligent discernment. The "judging" He was talking about in verse one must have referred to the judging involved in meting out punishment. Notice the context provided by verses 2 and 3: "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Bella Bee, what a political leader BELIEVES is the single most important thing about him, that we all must consider in order to rightly evaluate his fitness for leadership. If we do not do this, we are abdicating our responsibility to make an intelligent choice about whom to elect.

So I ask again. What does Barack Obama believe? And do not bother to quote what a politician says. With Obama especially, words demonstrably mean nothing. But you do not want to look at his past, do you? Not at his past associations, his past positions, his past actions. That would be to give credence to "Republican smears," right? So you think it is OK just to believe anything that Obama says, and ignore any evidence to the contrary? Like: Obama claims it is not true, and just a Republican smear, that he launched his political career with a speech in the living room of William Ayers (the former Weather Underground terrorist who planted bombs in government facilities, and only got off because the FBI bungled the case, despite catching him in the act). But eyewitnesses who were there in Ayers' living room then say that it is true. Obama did give a speech to the people assembled there!

This is what disgusts me about Obama supporters. You don't seem to care about truth. You just want your propaganda to prevail, so your political hero or messiah can get elected. You still have no idea the harm you have done to our country, by electing as president a man who is so utterly unqualified. You just voted for another American Idol!

[ April 05, 2009, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
This is what disgusts me about Obama supporters. You don't seem to care about truth.
A point of distinction: not agreeing with you on what constitutes the Truth is not equivalent to not caring about Truth. FYI.
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Ron Lambert
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If I am right, then it is. FYI.
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TomDavidson
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No, not even then. As a slightly ridiculous example:

I care deeply about people. One day, while out hunting, I accidentally shoot something that I think is a deer. I am wrong; I have shot a human being, who luckily is not dead. I would not have shot him, obviously, had I known he was a person, because I care about people.

Do you understand the distinction? There are individuals out here, Obama supporters, who are doing things that you think display a callous disregard for Truth -- when the reality is that they care deeply about Truth, but simply disagree with you about what the Truth happens to be.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
... that he launched his political career with a speech in the living room of William Ayers ...

Out of curiosity, say Obama IS inspired/controlled/funded/following (take your pick) William Ayers. What does that mean? What kinds of signs should we be looking for that indicate a modern renewal of the Weather Underground movement?
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BlackBlade
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Ron:
quote:
I was quoting an insult The Rabbit gratuitously made to me, and I was merely throwing it back at him.
Just quick FYI but Rabbit is a woman, and quite an agreeable one at that. Laying aside whether it's polite to throw an argument back at somebody, you still seem to operate under the premise that Obama is so obviously weak, misguided, mischievous, and bad that only a fool could find cause to support him. He's been in office for a few months now, has he acted in a manner that justifies the deep disdain you have felt for him?

quote:
About the "judging" thing. This is typical of superficial readers of the Bible, who do not know how to take things in context. True, Jesus said: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Mat. 7:1) However, a few verses later, Jesus also said: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (v. 20) So apparently He did not mean we are not to excercize some intelligent discernment. The "judging" He was talking about in verse one must have referred to the judging involved in meting out punishment. Notice the context provided by verses 2 and 3: "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
I confess I am not sure how this connects with what I was saying with you. I hope you can make that clearer to me. As an aside I have never said we should never use judgment. And I can completely agree with the assertion "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." If you have judged supporters of Obama so harshly and in my opinion too hastily you yourself should expect little empathy or respect in how you see things.

Your opinions regarding Obama would hold a lot more stock IMHO if you could identify something genuinely positive about him. Not something like, "well he is certainly a good speaker that he can fool so many into blindly supporting him." But perhaps something like, "Only a very hard working and intelligent person could have surpassed so many other political heavy weights to get elected." or "Only somebody who appreciates intelligence in women would not feel intimidated by Michelle Obama."

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Mrs.M
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As the mother of a disabled child, I was really hurt by his derisive remark about the Special Olympics. It was the casual way he made it that was especially cruel. His apology did little to assuage me. It also makes me worry about his feelings toward disabled people and if they will affect policy.

I was also appalled by the audiences' reaction.

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Vadon
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs.M:
As the mother of a disabled child, I was really hurt by his derisive remark about the Special Olympics. It was the casual way he made it that was especially cruel. His apology did little to assuage me. It also makes me worry about his feelings toward disabled people and if they will affect policy.

I was also appalled by the audiences' reaction.

I certainly don't wish to discredit your outrage against his statement, that's fully justified. I was appalled and disappointed by his comment and felt it was truly out of line. I also agree that his apology really didn't amount to much.

So while I think it's understandable that you feel animosity towards him stemming from that incident, I don't think you need to fear his opinions or policies in regard to the disabled for two reasons.

One, I have many friends who make jokes against other groups without feeling any real hatred for them. Part of the humor, in their eyes, is that it is edgy, but doesn't reflect their real views. I imagine this is kind of the view Obama has with that statement. It doesn't in any way decrease the offensive nature of his joke, but I do think it shouldn't reflect as heavily on the beliefs of the man. (Short-sighted nature, sure. Beliefs? Not so much.)

Two, Obama has countless advisors and staff. Even if Obama has a prejudice against the disabled, I'm pretty sure it would be kept in check by his advisors. I don't think that there will be anything done on the policy front that will have negative repercussions to the disabled. At the same time, I'm not positive that his agenda will try to bring additional assistance.

So while I'm with you completely on being angry with his joke, I don't think you have to fear his personal beliefs on the matter or how it will affect policy.

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Rakeesh
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It seems pretty strange to me to grant that it's justified to be angry about such a joke, but not think there's a reason for that same person to fear the policies of the one who made the joke.
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aspectre
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"What kinds of signs should we be looking for that indicate a modern renewal of the Weather Underground movement?"

Catastrophic nationwide destruction of the electrical power system, firestorms, floods, tornados, hurricanes, melting icecaps, GlobalWarming...
...the WeatherUnderground. Coincidence? I think not.

[ April 05, 2009, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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Vadon
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It seems pretty strange to me to grant that it's justified to be angry about such a joke, but not think there's a reason for that same person to fear the policies of the one who made the joke.

I'm not saying there's not reason. The joke itself is reason enough to create some fear. I was merely trying to show that in spite of the joke, I don't think that we have to worry about the implications.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
From Ron:
You still have no idea the harm you have done to our country, by electing as president a man who is so utterly unqualified. You just voted for another American Idol!

I'm voting Underwood/Daughtry in 2012.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
I'm not saying there's not reason. The joke itself is reason enough to create some fear. I was merely trying to show that in spite of the joke, I don't think that we have to worry about the implications.
I understand that...but why not?

One of your reasons why there isn't anything to fear is pretty flimsy: President Obama has lots of advisors. Well, who selects those advisors - or more appropriately who selects the people who select the advisors, depending on what level we're talking about?

So the idea that one should not be afraid of the implications of a man because the advisors that man selected will protect us from those implications...well, suffice to say I don't think that's very persuasive.

As for your other reason - it was just a joke - well, that's slightly less unpersuasive, but not by much, because I kind of seek a higher level of dialogue from the President. Even when it's lighthearted.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
You still have no idea the harm you have done to our country, by electing as president a man who is so utterly unqualified. You just voted for another American Idol!
The effectiveness of this statement is inversely proportionate to the pleasure you get in saying it, Ron.
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The White Whale
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
...because I kind of seek a higher level of dialogue from the President. Even when it's lighthearted.

I hope that for the most part, our President can live quite happily in a world of higher dialogue. But I'm also quite happy when he comes down and talks about his pick for March Madness. He's not a robot, and I don't think he should be expected to act like one 100% of the time.
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