posted
Serious answer: Heaven doesn't exist. It's a nice lie that, while occasionally comforting, also (and unfortunately) gets used to justify all kinds of horrible things here on Earth.
You won't go to Heaven. None of us will. But you can enjoy life more than you are enjoying it now.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Why do you ask? Is it because you don't know? Or because you want the opinions of others?
If it's the latter, you're just trying to bait people into making judgements about you, when you are nothing more than ASCII characters on a computer screen. If it's the former, that's a problem you will have to work out for yourself.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
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I do not believe anyone is going to 'Hell' a place where souls are tortured for an eternity. I do know that energy always converts into something else. I do know there are several religions in America that believe I cannot get to Heaven without their path to Christ/God, though I don't hear anyone saying as much.
"Serious answer: Heaven doesn't exist. It's a nice lie that, while occasionally comforting, also (and unfortunately) gets used to justify all kinds of horrible things here on Earth." - TD
We seriously disagree. I have personally witnessed many miracles in my life, I have walked with the Holy Spirit, and when I was a small child, I had a very vivid dream about looking into "The Book of Life" before I knew what it was.
I don't believe in God, I know God is. I don't humanized him like many, many, many others do. Believing that God is constricted to the mind of a man leads to bad things.
Posts: 377 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:I have personally witnessed many events I decided to classify as miracles in my life, I have had a sensation I call walking with the Holy Spirit, and when I was a small child, I had a very vivid dream.
There, fixed that for ya.
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posted
Accurate statements often are predictable. Would you like to make a substantive criticism of what I said, such as how it is wrong or irrelevant?
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No, I agree with you. It's just that I respect other human beings enough and am sensitive enough not to present my objections in that way.
Because for me, the vehicle through which I transmit my message is as important as the message itself.
If you are wise, you will see how my criticism of your post, though not on it's content, is extremely substantive.
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Respect is earned, not given. And equating form with substance is not a form of respect in any case.
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When you see me denying Danlo the right to believe as he chooses, have sex with other consenting adults, take any job he can get, or publish his opinions, you can reasonably accuse me of not giving him such respect. Anything beyond that is earned.
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quote:There is basic human respect which is given...
While I agree with you, I'm curious why you believe respect for someone's supernatural delusions must fall under "basic human respect." What has religion done to deserve that honor?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: "Serious answer: Heaven doesn't exist. It's a nice lie that, while occasionally comforting, also (and unfortunately) gets used to justify all kinds of horrible things here on Earth." - TD
We seriously disagree. I have personally witnessed many miracles in my life, I have walked with the Holy Spirit, and when I was a small child, I had a very vivid dream about looking into "The Book of Life" before I knew what it was.
I don't believe in God, I know God is. I don't humanized him like many, many, many others do. Believing that God is constricted to the mind of a man leads to bad things.
Just out of curiosity, why does belief in heaven follow from belief in God?
As far as the original question goes:
1. Is there a heaven?
2. Who decides who gets to go and how?
3. Why does it matter whether there is a heaven?
4. Are you asking us because you think we get to decide?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
When in conversation, I believe it is basic human respect to treat the person you are speaking with kindly. Danlo obviously believes what he believes. You cannot prove otherwise. Even though I believe his visions are unlikely to be true, and are more likely to be his own feelings that he attributes to the Divine, I would tell him that by suggesting that as a possibility, not by being a condesnceding jerk.
I'm sure Danlo appreciates my way more, and is more keen to listen to me, which is a benefit that I am interested in.
If you take pleasure in deriding him, then, by all means, continue.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Danlo obviously believes what he believes. You cannot prove otherwise.
While it is logically impossible to prove a negative, this is really the last refuge of plain stubbornness. If I assert the existence of gnomes in my garden, who give me access to the great secrets of the Universe, you would not consider "I cannot disprove this" as an argument in favour of their existence. It is only when someone says something that can be classified as some sort of mainstream religion that this phrase becomes evident. There comes a point when evidence is so underwhelming, and claims so vast, that a reasonable human ceases to assert the truth of the claims, and says "All right - I have no evidence for this, so I won't believe it anymore". The latter part of the sentence is the important one. Any idiot can admit to having no evidence, and many do. Adults take the consequences of the admission.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Danlo obviously believes what he believes. You cannot prove otherwise.
While it is logically impossible to prove a negative, this is really the last refuge of plain stubbornness. If I assert the existence of gnomes in my garden, who give me access to the great secrets of the Universe, you would not consider "I cannot disprove this" as an argument in favour of their existence. It is only when someone says something that can be classified as some sort of mainstream religion that this phrase becomes evident. There comes a point when evidence is so underwhelming, and claims so vast, that a reasonable human ceases to assert the truth of the claims, and says "All right - I have no evidence for this, so I won't believe it anymore". The latter part of the sentence is the important one. Any idiot can admit to having no evidence, and many do. Adults take the consequences of the admission.
This is one approach. The other to take is that claims which you deem illogical are actually quite prevalent. To take the approach you just mentioned would limit your interaction and the effectiveness those interactions with millions of people. As such, you might want to accept that people will believe illogical things unless politely convinced otherwise.
Seriously, what is your point in posting? Danlo isn't going to hear a word you say when you say something snide or derisive. Are you warding away people who might be swayed by his beliefs? Because if your goal is to get through to HIM, i suggest you take a different tactic.
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quote:As such, you might want to accept that people will believe illogical things unless politely convinced otherwise.
Since 2500 years of polite persuasion have failed, it is perhaps not unreasonable to try some different tactics.
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Just because the logic existed for 2500 years doesn't mean that the dialogue did. C'mon. I'm making a serious argument here. That if you even want to come close to persuasion, you need to have a relationship with the person you are speaking with.
That's exactly what missionaries do. They form relationships. The ones who brandish scripture in people's faces are rarely successful. Being polite is a foundation for such a relationship.
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quote:Just because the logic existed for 2500 years doesn't mean that the dialogue did.
Right, because one side wasn't listening! It takes two to dialogue, hence the name.
quote:That if you even want to come close to persuasion, you need to have a relationship with the person you are speaking with.
Since the theists have spent 2500 years either burning atheists or, in more enlightened times, sticking their hands over their ears and going "la la la", I am quite unimpressed with this. To have relationship you must first gain people's attention.
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quote: Since the theists have spent 2500 years either burning atheists or, in more enlightened times, sticking their hands over their ears and going "la la la", I am quite unimpressed with this. To have a relationship you must first gain people's attention.
Theists have killed theists more than they've killed athiests, that is not proof that there is not a binding spirit of Love and Creation weaving through the universe giving billions of people millions of miracles daily which we can either see, hear, taste, smell or feel.
Posts: 377 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Theists have killed theists more than they've killed athiests.
I never claimed otherwise. I think you might find the percentage of atheists killed inteesting, though.
quote:that is not proof that there is not a binding spirit of Love and Creation weaving through the universe giving billions of people millions of miracles daily which we can either see, hear, taste, smell or feel.
I never said it was. Perhaps you would like to address my actual criticisms rather than this strawman. Or perhaps not, it's not as though you've ever responded substantively to anyone's post, I don't know why you should start with me.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: "Serious answer: Heaven doesn't exist. It's a nice lie that, while occasionally comforting, also (and unfortunately) gets used to justify all kinds of horrible things here on Earth." - TD
We seriously disagree. I have personally witnessed many miracles in my life, I have walked with the Holy Spirit, and when I was a small child, I had a very vivid dream about looking into "The Book of Life" before I knew what it was.
I don't believe in God, I know God is. I don't humanized him like many, many, many others do. Believing that God is constricted to the mind of a man leads to bad things.
Just out of curiosity, why does belief in heaven follow from belief in God?
As far as the original question goes:
1. Is there a heaven?
2. Who decides who gets to go and how?
3. Why does it matter whether there is a heaven?
4. Are you asking us because you think we get to decide?
#1 - Is there a Heaven? Yes. I have been in days of pure and absolute joy and laughter. Our souls, our spirits, our energies will move on after our bodies crumble. There aren't many permanent states of being in the Universe. It's all moving, growing, colliding, spinning, glowing and exploding.
Heaven is the magic of it all when it all comes together.
I'd like to be apart of that magic as long as possible.
2. Who decides who gets to go and how?
Works and Grace. We do and God/The Universe does.
Saying thanks to all that is good, being good to others and wanting to live again.
Those are big keys. I think. I got no more proof than the man on the moon of cheese, but I can honestly say it works for me.
3. Why does it matter whether there is a heaven?
Churches can operate as a tax exempt billion dollar business and be above critique of the people while selling the masses tickets to Heaven.
I think wether 'Heaven' exists, or what 'Heaven' is, matters.
I'd like all athiests, christians, jews, muslims and other to find Heaven on Earth AND in the afterlife. I do not thing modern populist religion has a good enough imagination for what Heaven is. Though they make a killin' selling ancient mindsets.
4. Are you asking us because you think we get to decide?
You do get to decide. Since it is a provable fact that I have felt Heaven on Earth many times, times like those are almost always dependent on other people. The more cool, kind, funny, smart, good hearted, good cooks and conversationalists there are in this world, the more often I will experience small doses of Heaven. Here. On Earth
I don't know what happens when our bodies fail.
I do believe that Love creates better things than hate.
Posts: 377 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I would suppose that if the Sun is God's face, that would make a black hole, God's mouth and a pulsar, God's anus.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:I have personally witnessed many events I decided to classify as miracles in my life, I have had a sensation I call walking with the Holy Spirit, and when I was a small child, I had a very vivid dream.
There, fixed that for ya.
When a grandmother loves her grandkids is it love or is it classified as love? If someone receives 3rd degree burns over their body were they burned or was it just a sensation? Describing dreams to one who cannot dream is more difficult than describing sound to someone who is deaf.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I would suppose that if the Sun is God's face, that would make a black hole, God's mouth and a pulsar, God's anus.
Sorry. Miss Tuckerputz's 2nd grade class emailed me the rest of God's body in the universe first. They got better marks for imagination and humor, mucus. Don't feel bad. You're still the highest ranking chap here named after a body fluid.
Semen always wants to talk about sticky subjects and saliva is always runnin' his mouth.
Posts: 377 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: 2500 years of polite persuasion? I doubt you or people like you have been doing this for 2500 years.
I believe in God as well, but not in divine encounters, so maybe I'm not your best guy, but perhaps I'd engage him on the topic.
Hey! Danlo! Are you willing to have this conversation with me here?
If so, can you describe what you mentioned earlier and what you meant by your feeling/knowing God?
It's best described as always being Lucky. Still having a child like perception looking at the world's many marvels and magics with wonder and awe. My treasure vaults are filled with the laughter, smiles and great times shared with wonderful people. God is the only thing that allows me to have my empathy and imagination in this world. God is everything in the universe that is good, man is responsible for everything else.
As someone who writes music, poetry, films, short stories, paints, draws, dances, it is impossible for me to believe something as brilliantly complex and rewarding as life is anything other than a gift crafted from a divine architect.
There is no need for art in evolution.
Art is proof of God.
Have you ever had a kiss SO great you will remember fifty years from now on your deathbed? There is no need for kissing in evolution. Every animal procreates without it.
Posts: 377 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: God is everything in the universe that is good, man is responsible for everything else.
Maybe you can explain to me how man is responsible for earthquakes, tidal waves, disease and floods that kill countless people and destroy their lives, or alternately how those things are good.
quote: As someone who writes music, poetry, films, short stories, paints, draws, dances, it is impossible for me to believe something as brilliantly complex and rewarding as life is anything other than a gift crafted from a divine architect.
There is no need for art in evolution.
Art is proof of God.
Have you ever had a kiss SO great you will remember fifty years from now on your deathbed? There is no need for kissing in evolution. Every animal procreates without it.
As someone who actually understands how evolution works, it is impossible for me to believe that God is necessary for emotions, complex thoughts, and memory. The things you attribute to God are all easily understood in a natural, materialistic, evolution-caused process of life on earth.
Supernatural influence is completely unnecessary, and you are simply using it as a crutch to fill in something you do not yet understand, in the same way that early cultures attributed thunder and earthquakes to angry gods.
We don't believe that thunder is the sound of Thor's hammer as he kills giants, because we know how thunder is actually produced. If you learn a bit more about how evolution works, you'll see that laughter, art, kissing, and memory are all perfectly consistent with evolutionary development, and you'll no longer need to add superstition to fill in the blanks.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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"...Sentients...have as varied a reaction to the concept of Death as they do to the statement 'The Party is Over,' and for approximately the same reasons......Another segment is just never able to wrap its head around the idea. People come and go, certainly, but where and how are really none of their business, and while it might be troubling that they are running out of people to talk to, they will continue to chatter on (to the hatrack, if they must) until they are forcibly thrown out."
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: Or do you want to convince me big light in the sky isn't God's face?
So, the .. 'face of god' is adrift among 100 million G2 class stars in our galaxy alone, infinitesimal in the grand scheme of things. Interesting concept.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't know Danlo as well as many of the rest of you, but based on what I've read in this thread I'm about 90% sure he's being sarcastic. His posts read a lot more like an atheist parodying the beliefs of a theist than like anyone who seriously believes in God.
Maybe someone who knows him better can set me straight. But if not, perhaps the conversion efforts being made here might be better used elsewhere.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:God is everything in the universe that is good, man is responsible for everything else.
If that's how you're choosing to define God, more power to you. It's not a definition I consider particularly useful, and I can't imagine that you get much more than a comforting narrative out of it, but to each his own.
quote:There is no need for art in evolution.
I know a few scientists personally who are researching precisely this topic. Would you like to discuss it?
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quote:His posts read a lot more like an atheist parodying the beliefs of a theist than like anyone who seriously believes in God.
No, Thor believes in God. He's a liberal in Texas; he needs all the God he can get.
quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: It's best described as always being Lucky. Still having a child like perception looking at the world's many marvels and magics with wonder and awe. My treasure vaults are filled with the laughter, smiles and great times shared with wonderful people. God is the only thing that allows me to have my empathy and imagination in this world. God is everything in the universe that is good, man is responsible for everything else.
As someone who writes music, poetry, films, short stories, paints, draws, dances, it is impossible for me to believe something as brilliantly complex and rewarding as life is anything other than a gift crafted from a divine architect.
There is no need for art in evolution.
Art is proof of God.
Have you ever had a kiss SO great you will remember fifty years from now on your deathbed? There is no need for kissing in evolution. Every animal procreates without it.
You should know that when speaking to me, you are speaking to a believer in God as well.
I worry for you because if someone gave you evolutionary advantages for kissing and art, then would you abandon your faith in God?
I always understood the proof of an original cause to be slightly more complex than: Hey, that's pretty, there must be a designer - but rather - Hey, that is complex, it is governed by a number of simple principles that can be traced back to even simpler principles down to an original point. Since everything else has an originator, I believe that point and the principles within have an originator. Can I prove this? No. It is just likely enough to me to make major life decision on the fact that it seems likely. I have other reasons that are more strongly rooted, but this isn't about me.
It seems that you enjoy something romantically and whimsically, and because it is romantic, you ascribe it to God. Say, for a moment, that there was no God. Because you are a romantic, you are motivated to ascribe certain things to God as opposed to accept them as human nature.
I see people do this all the time. People rationalize the death of their young as God carried them away because they are righteous, in religious battles between nations, both sides claim God and His favor for themselves - these romantic notions fuel us to a certain degree, giving us extra strength in life. I'm not sure that they are always true though.
For me, it is a romantic notion that there are only about 16 million Jews in the world in a world of Billions. I "feel" that God is trying to show that it is not quantity, but quality that matters to Him. Now I'm sure this feeling of divine inspiration that I have experienced would contradict yours. One of us or both of us is NOT being divinely inspired. What do you do with that?
But I am MOST interested in your communication with the divine, not through seeing pretty things. I remember as a child claiming, at least to myself, that I could do the same. It was an incredibly romantic notion. But I also remember when me and a group of friends decided that we were all wizards and could control the weather. We had ourselves utterly convinced. But I grew out of that, realizing that I, like most humans, can convince ourselves of things because they are romantic, rather than true.
I don't mean to hurt your faith - I too, am a religious man. But I ground my religious faith both on the aforementioned theory, others, as well as my links back to the mass revelation at Sinai. Things that are, in my opinion, more concrete.
Once I understand that God is all and all is God, then sure, I can appreciate pretty things in the world, but they, in their pretty selves are not proof of God by he sheer fact that they are pretty.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Speed: I don't know Danlo as well as many of the rest of you, but based on what I've read in this thread I'm about 90% sure he's being sarcastic. His posts read a lot more like an atheist parodying the beliefs of a theist than like anyone who seriously believes in God.
Maybe someone who knows him better can set me straight. But if not, perhaps the conversion efforts being made here might be better used elsewhere.
What I have learned at Hatrack is that you are allowed to invalidate someone's personal belief, but you are not allowed to question an organized religion that has millions or billions of dollars of wealth and power.
You saying " His posts read a lot more like an atheist parodying the beliefs of a theist than like anyone who seriously believes in God." is such an example.
Posts: 377 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: What I have learned at Hatrack is that you are allowed to invalidate someone's personal belief, but you are not allowed to question an organized religion that has millions or billions of dollars of wealth and power.
Not allowed?? Where do you get that? You do that in 90% of your posts and no one has stopped you.
People are not irritated at you posting that. People are irritated at you posting that over and over and over and over and over......
quote:Originally posted by Danlo the Wild: You saying " His posts read a lot more like an atheist parodying the beliefs of a theist than like anyone who seriously believes in God." is such an example.
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