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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » You, and me, and baby makes . . . 14! (Page 6)

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Author Topic: You, and me, and baby makes . . . 14!
scifibum
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OK, so the evidence about what kinds of parenting is optimal is mixed. However, the evidence that poverty is strongly correlated with various poor outcomes - such as criminal activity - is pretty solid.

Regardless - do we want to get in the business of telling people who gets to make babies?

Aside from living in a glass house in that regard - I'm not an optimal parent, probably will never even be particularly close - I think it'd be a bad idea. I don't want extra forces causing humanity to breed selectively for the most compliant, most conformed outcomes. (At best we'd be less interesting, at worst we are ripe for totalitarianism.)

Rather, I think we should try and figure out which ways people can adapt to avoid things we generally agree are bad, such as going to jail, not having financial resources, and being in a bad mood all the time. Don't prevent the poor from having kids, but try to help them not to be poor any more. Don't tell the lesbians "no sperm for you!", but educate ourselves so we know whether there are any particular concerns with a two mommies household.

I don't think we need to limit our choices so much as to understand the implications of them. It's easy to see that this generally works: people act in self interest, and in the interests of those close to them, so when there's disagreement about benefit, we need study, not proscription, at least when it comes to able adults.

And remember you're not permanently safe from the whims of the majority just because you currently belong to it.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
I wasn't positioning her as a student to my "teacher status".

Jhai, You said

quote:
Wow. I'd be embarrassed to admit to being your teacher in any sort of science field.
and I can't see any logical way to interpret that statement other than that you were positioning her as a student to your teacher status. Furthermore, that comment came before most of the other responses to Annie's post so your seeking to justify it by saying

quote:
The only reason I've ended up repeatedly comparing Annie to students I've taught (or, rather, my expectations for students I've taught) was in response to others who were, in turn, responding to the original comment.
falls flat. Anyone reading this thread can see that it is factually and verifiably incorrect.

Then you claimed that this was not a personal attack. Get real Jhai. I can't believe that someone with the credentials you claim could make that argument with a straight face.

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Jhai
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Another logical interpretation: the first quote you use is about status, not actual student-to-teacher relationships. Thus, I am saying that I do not believe I am "better" than her because I hold "teacher status" while she holds "student status". You see how this is different from the other two?

One is a comment on status, two & three are comments on hypothetical situations. Pay closer attention to my word choice next time.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Annie:
quote:
First, they are coming from a website that opposes same-sex marriage, which means that they are likely only going to have articles that support their view point.
Whereas, if you were making an argument here that same-sex marriage was a good idea, you would only cite articles that support your viewpoint.
Yes, if you were making that argument. Of course, you're making an argument, and only citing other people who are also making that argument. None of your links is actually to a single study, (as far as I can tell) only statements and discussions of other studies- and none of them appear to be from peer-reviewed journals themselves.

If you're actually using this stuff as a basis for any of your own "research," I'm startled.

And you've provided us with a bibliography... someone *else's* bibliography. Have you read these works? Do you know the data they present? It's really kind of irresponsible to post them as if they are representative of your viewpoint. They may not be.

It would be very easy for you, if you are at a University, to log onto JSTOR and generate a bibliography of actual studies you have actually read. You wouldn't have to provide stable links. Many people here have ways of accessing online databases. Because, really, so far what you've contributed is almost worse than when you weren't providing any sources. At least then we could pretend that if the sources did exist, they would be reliable or relevant.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Regardless - do we want to get in the business of telling people who gets to make babies?

Apparently, her answer is not only yes, but she wants it arbitrarily limited, out of a fundamental assumption that it's okay to discriminate based on being single or lesbian, but not on other factors like being poor, which turns the whole sociological justification (not yet rendered) lopsided.
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scifibum
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I'm just glad there isn't a smell test.
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Samprimary
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You say that and I think "Well, y'see, I smell lahk keystone light and chew, an' th missus smells lahk chesterfields an' cat poo, but, y'see, wahr in a tra-dis-nul family strutcher. So, w'all good fer ten mer kids."
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Annie
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quote:
Apparently, her answer is not only yes, but she wants it arbitrarily limited, out of a fundamental assumption that it's okay to discriminate based on being single or lesbian, but not on other factors like being poor, which turns the whole sociological justification (not yet rendered) lopsided.
Please do not put words in my mouth.

I am legitimately busy with schoolwork, I already wasted too much time on this thread this morning, and I'm not interested in continuing a discussion in such a hostile atmosphere.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Annie:
Please do not put words in my mouth.

I am legitimately busy with schoolwork, I already wasted too much time on this thread this morning, and I'm not interested in continuing a discussion in such a hostile atmosphere.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. That's a straightforward interpretation of the extent of your position so rendered. If you don't want to correct it, then, fine.

But I'm somewhat disappointed that the actions of others are what you are going to use to decide not to address my points, since they're really rather pointed and necessary critiques of your position.

So rendered.

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DDDaysh
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Liz B, I really liked your post. I share many of Belle's concerns about large families (though to many people, 4 kids IS a large family). I grew up in a family of 6, and it was not the fairy tale of love and team work that many people seem to want to portray. There were many days where it was pretty hellish, and every last one of us (except maybe one) has suffered some not-insignificant emotional scars from some of the negative aspects. On the other hand, there were many positive aspects, and in the end, I think large families are still wonderful in many ways.

That being said, even parents with the best of intentions end up sometimes raising children or families in situations they themselves do not consider idea. I'm a single mother of only one son who works full time an hour away and goes to school part time. My son also has a half sibling he only gets to see every couple of weeks. There is almost NOTHING about the family dynamics my son has that I am happy with. This is NOT the situation in which I think children should be raised - yet I'm doing it the best I can, and I think that my son is doing ok too.

I have real concerns about my son being raised as an only child and missing out on almost every aspect of a sibling relationship. On the other hand, I could never, in good conscience, bring another baby into this world given my circumstances. I honestly believe it is unfair to never give a kid a chance at a "normal" life. I am, however, considering adopting a child from foster care. My son wants a sibling, I have more love to give, and many foster children never get a chance at any family at all, so half a set of parents is better than none! Even with all these considerations, I am still waiting until I am out of school because I realize that more than money children need their parent's time.

I am not suggesting that any laws be passed regulating who can and cannot have a child. There are some laws I'd like to see revised (such as those banning mentally handicapped people from receiving sterilization procedures if they consent) but the truth is there is no practical and fair way to do it. However, I do have real concerns that people honestly believe that "all families are equal".

Some people seem to think that if two parents can handle four kids, then it's just as easy for a single parent to handle two kids - but that's just not true. I'm not sure exactly how much having both a mother AND a father matters, but I definitely think that having TWO parents is a big deal. Heck, there was a reason that grandparents often lived with families in the "good ole days" and it didn't all have to do with poverty, lack of space, and no nursing homes. Kids need a variety of adults they can count on for love and support. No adult is perfect, and there will be times when an argument or punishment from an adult will hurt the child. That child needs to have at least one other person to turn to for validation in those circumstances. I don't mean validation as in telling the child he/she is right, but validation in the fact that the child is still a person worthy of love. (Remember grandpappy in the first chapter of 7th son).

Thus, while single parent families can work, I do shiver at the thought of actually encouraging them to exist. There are legal hoops that a person must jump through to adopt a child. I do not understand why equally stringent hoops should not be placed on a person wishing to undergo fertility treatments. After all, isn't the end result essentially the same?

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by DDDaysh:

Thus, while single parent families can work, I do shiver at the thought of actually encouraging them to exist. There are legal hoops that a person must jump through to adopt a child. I do not understand why equally stringent hoops should not be placed on a person wishing to undergo fertility treatments. After all, isn't the end result essentially the same?

This is an interesting question, and I'm not sure if the answer is as simple as it should be. The rules for adopting a child are put in place to protect children who *already exist* and to help place them in loving homes. Fertility treatments create new babies and those babies are biologically and legally the responsibility of the mothers who bear them. There is a real knee-jerk reaction involved when you try to get into the business of regulating reproduction. I'm one of the people who has such a reaction, though I understand the practical concerns you've put forth. It might be fairer to stop a child from being brought into existence if that existence would be unpleasant and/or make others' existence unpleasant, and certainly easier than dealing with it after they are born and potentially shuffled through the foster system, and yet who gets to say who's a good parent and who is not?
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kmbboots
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I just want to say that there is an enormous and critical difference between being pissed off at irresponsible parents and thinking that society or the government should have a say in who can have children by whatever means.
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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
This is an interesting question, and I'm not sure if the answer is as simple as it should be. The rules for adopting a child are put in place to protect children who *already exist* and to help place them in loving homes. Fertility treatments create new babies and those babies are biologically and legally the responsibility of the mothers who bear them. There is a real knee-jerk reaction involved when you try to get into the business of regulating reproduction. I'm one of the people who has such a reaction, though I understand the practical concerns you've put forth. It might be fairer to stop a child from being brought into existence if that existence would be unpleasant and/or make others' existence unpleasant, and certainly easier than dealing with it after they are born and potentially shuffled through the foster system, and yet who gets to say who's a good parent and who is not?

It's very difficult to make a case based upon happiness/utility alone that it is better to not exist at than to exist even if you're disadvantaged - it's called the non-identity problem in philosophy. The only cases which are legitimately/seriously argued are things like children born with Tay-Sachs disease. There are other ways you can argue about the morality of conceiving a child that will be disadvantaged, but harm to the child-to-be-conceived is a tough one. (We once had a debate case on this issue concerning a child who had been conceived with the sperm of a family with a long history of deafness - it was a pair of lesbian Deaf women who already had one other artificially-conceived Deaf child. They wanted another child, and the wanted the child to be deaf if at all possible.)
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I just want to say that there is an enormous and critical difference between being pissed off at irresponsible parents and thinking that society or the government should have a say in who can have children by whatever means.

there should prolly be exceptions in the case of people who are mentally ill in certain ways or people who've run afoul of the law involving their care of children but yes, for the most part. 'legislating fertility' is a horrific sounding idea which has no place outside of a dystopic future where it is necessitated by horrific events.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
We once had a debate case on this issue concerning a child who had been conceived with the sperm of a family with a long history of deafness - it was a pair of lesbian Deaf women who already had one other artificially-conceived Deaf child. They wanted another child, and the wanted the child to be deaf if at all possible.

I'm failing to see how this could possibly be a debate. I can see arguments for why it might be ethical to want a child even though there was a high probability or even certainty that the child would be deaf. I can understand that a deaf life can be worth living and that there are valuable things in deaf culture. But actively seeking to make a deaf child seems to me to cross a line into the clearly unethical zone. In my mind, I can't see a difference between deliberately passing on a genetic defect to a child, performing a procedure during pregnancy with the intention of creating a birth defect and poking the child's ears out with a nail at birth.

I am very curious to know what arguments there are on the other side of this issue.

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scholarette
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I know a lot of deaf people do not consider deafness a defect. I know that some members of the deaf community also argued against hearing parents getting their child the occular implant along similar lines. One of the profs I know works in that field and says that the amount of hostility he gets from the deaf community is shocking.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... In my mind, I can't see a difference between deliberately passing on a genetic defect to a child, performing a procedure during pregnancy with the intention of creating a birth defect and poking the child's ears out with a nail at birth.

Theoretically, its slightly different. For example, if you use some form of genetic screening to screen for fertilized eggs that are deaf then you're not really poking out the child's ears as much as you're choosing to have a child thats deaf. (I mean conversely, if we screen against a disease, we don't really think of that as "upgrading" the child at birth)

That aspect of the theory aside though, I'm still not a fan.

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Jhai
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Theoretically, it's very different.

The problem is that you can't point to an entity that is harmed by the decision to go with "defective sperm", so to speak. There isn't a child being harmed, because the child that is born because of the choice to go with that specific sperm would not have been born had the choice been otherwise. Some other individual would have been born.

So in the case of the Deaf family, they did end up having a male boy who was completely deaf in one ear and nearly completely deaf in the other. Let's call him Mike. Mike would not have been born if his mothers had chosen other sperm. He hasn't been harmed by their choice - that choice is what gave him life. If Mike's parents had chosen to go with the sperm of a man whose family didn't have a genetic tendency to be deaf, then some other kid - call her Linda - would have been born. Now, I suppose you could say that Linda was harmed by the parents' decision - but we aren't typically in habit of saying that you're harming all potential children by not giving birth to them. It'd be a hard case to make.

Then there's the part of whether being deaf is really a defect. As scholarette noted, the Deaf community typically doesn't see it as a defect - differently-abled, not defective. I don't agree with that stance, but you do have to argue against it. So the first third of my case was just focused on making it clear why being born deaf was an actual defect, rather than like being born with brown eyes rather than hazel. The second third was talking about the non-identity problem, and why harm couldn't be a principle used to argue against the mothers' choice. Then the final part was putting forth an argument for why it was still the morally-wrong choice on deontological lines. That's also a difficult case to make as you don't want to go with a principle that's too strong - one that would require, for instance, people with any genetic problem to not have children.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Then there's the part of whether being deaf is really a defect.
The answer is "yes" and the 'deaf community' is sometimes very weird about their differently-abledness, sometimes balking when doctors recommend fixing their hearing as children.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Then there's the part of whether being deaf is really a defect.
The answer is "yes" and the 'deaf community' is sometimes very weird about their differently-abledness, sometimes balking when doctors recommend fixing their hearing as children.
Agreed. Some segments of the deaf community are strongly opposed to cochlear implants. They have been known to ostracize deaf people who receive the implants and oppose giving implants to children. I find their attitudes highly unethical.
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Jhai
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I don't disagree, but it's still an argument that must be laid to rest before proceeding further. There are some arguments, as I recall, that initially sound plausible (access to a unique culture & language, sharpening of other senses, discrimination is less than what, say, a black person faces, etc), but they ultimately fail.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
The problem is that you can't point to an entity that is harmed by the decision to go with "defective sperm", so to speak. There isn't a child being harmed, because the child that is born because of the choice to go with that specific sperm would not have been born had the choice been otherwise. Some other individual would have been born.
I have difficulty with this distinction. I know too much biochemistry to see a genetic defect as fundamentally distinct from a developmental defect. Our individuality is at least as much determined by chemical signals that regulate gene expression in the womb as it is by genes. Scientifically the distinction just isn't there to say that a change in the genome means you are a different person but a change in conditions in the womb does not. Yes, if you used a different sperm, a different person would have been born. But if you'd changed conditions in the womb to prevent proper development of the ears, a different person would have been born as well. Some of the key traits that define us as individuals (like gender) are as much controlled by the hormonal environment in the womb as they are by genetics.

I can't see any clear difference to distinguish between deliberately selecting a genetic defect in a child and deliberately inducing a defect in the womb.

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Jhai
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If you have a fetus, and you do something to it, you've changed an entity. If you don't have a fetus yet, then there's no entity to change. In one case you can point to an entity and say "you've harmed this entity". In another case, there's no thing or person that has been harmed.

How can you cause harm to a thing that doesn't exist?

Note: in the case of your last sentence, you can certainly talk about motivation of the actors, and whether an action is right or not. My initial comment was not about that - it was about whether the action caused harm or not. Many ethicists like to fall back on some sort of harm principle to show that an action was wrong - this case is one where you cannot do so.

Upthread I linked to a section in a philosophical article on this issue. If you read it (just the "non-identity problem" section), I think you will understand the issue better.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
If you have a fetus, and you do something to it, you've changed an entity. If you don't have a fetus yet, then there's no entity to change. In one case you can point to an entity and say "you've harmed this entity". In another case, there's no thing or person that has been harmed.

How can you cause harm to a thing that doesn't exist?

I fully understand that argument and the problem it creates for ethicists. Unfortunately, I think it leads to a very irrational conclusion.

Biochemically, If I knock out a gene so that it simply is never present in an entity or use chemical means to completely suppress expression of a gene -- I end up with exactly the same out come, yet you would say the first one does not harm because no entity existed when I knocked out the gene but in the second case the entity already exist and so it can be harmed. But from a scientific perspective, the two acts are performed for the exact same reason and have identical outcomes.

What I'm saying is that an ethical theory is deeply flawed if that theory leads to the conclusion that one of two acts is ethical and the other not, when the two acts are performed with the same intent and have exactly the same outcome. I find that conclusion irrational and evidence of a serious limitation in the ethical theory.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Upthread I linked to a section in a philosophical article on this issue. If you read it (just the "non-identity problem" section), I think you will understand the issue better.
Jhai, I am very familiar with the non-identity problem. My problem is not lack of familiarity or understanding. I think that this philosophical model is unsound because it leads to irrational and contradictory results. It may be useful in some cases, but has severe limitations.

I believe we've had this discussion before. I know I've had it with more credentialed ethicists than you, two of whom understood and accepted my point as a valid concern.

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Jhai
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But the two acts you speak of don't have anything close to the same outcome, because the individuals are very different. In one case you have "healthy" sperm combining with an egg to create an embryo, and then you alter the embryo - in the other you have "deaf" sperm combing with an egg to create an embryo. Even if you end up with two deaf babies from this experiment, you've used different sperm and two different individuals have resulted from the experiment.

The first individual could reasonably inquire: "Why did you perform that gene therapy in the womb that caused me to be born deaf? If you hadn't have done that, I would have been just the same as now, but with ears."

The second individual cannot reasonably say a similar thing.

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Jhai
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*shrug* If you don't want to discuss it, then that's fine. If we've discussed it before, you must not have persuaded me that your reasoning was valid, since I don't think your biochemical example fits the constraints of the case.

And, frankly, I don't care what sort of ethicists you've talked to about this issue, and whether or not they've agreed with you. I think a lot of philosophers are wrong on a lot of things. The wrongness of other philosophers is probably the only thing philosophers can agree on.

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The Rabbit
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Jhai, ou don't actually understand what I'm proposing. Consider the following throught experiment.

1. We take an egg and a sperm and knock out a gene critical for hearing in each gamete. Then we allow the gametes to fuse to form an embryo.

2. We select an egg and sperm which we know to be identical to some other egg and sperm in every way except that they have lost the hearing gene through some natural process. Then we allow the gametes to fuse to form an embryo.

3. We select an egg and sperm, allow them to fuse to form an embryo and then chemically suppress expression of the hearing gene.

All three options are performed for the exact same reason and have the identical outcome. An ethical theory that would conclude that 1 or 2 was ethical, but three was not in my mind is seriously flawed.

Now I know that none of these scenarios is exactly what was done. But I think that ethically it is very difficult to distinguish between option 2 and what these women did. While its true that they did not have the technology needed to select a sperm that was genetically identical in all respects except the defective hearing gene, it seems evident that that their intent and the outcome are identical to option 2. Their reason for selecting the sperm donor was so that they would have a high probability of having a deaf child. The only difference I see between that and option 2 is the technology that was available to them.

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Jhai
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(I'll reply when I get a chance. Things just got hairy at work.)
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scholarette
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How about the married heterosexual couple who wish to take their sperm and eggs, fuse them and then use genetic testing to eliminate all the non deaf embryos?
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