posted
I liked this episode quite a bit. It's not what I expected from a Joss show but it's good for its own reasons.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
After having seen, presumably, the same three episodes that The New Yorker saw, I'm having a hard time imagining why anyone would take issue with that review. I'm as big a Whedon fan as anyone. The show so far is not a good show. I think we all expect it to get better, but if it wasn't Joss, I would not be watching.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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Who was that actress playing the singer? Was she some American Idol winner they felt they had to give a role to or something? In any case, she was dreadful--as was the story, which made no sense. How could her stalker freely operate backstage like that? Didn't the writers realize that sending in TWO actives--and it turning out that one of them was so useless that she let's herself get kidnapped and be absolutely cowed by her captor--would be clunky storytelling? The pitch we keep hearing from Whedon is that the first episodes are just an introduction. But why was "Firefly" a masterpiece and this clearly isn't?
So far, Dollhouse has been remarkably lame, and this could be because Whedon is afraid of pouring his heart into another show that may very well get cancelled before its time.
posted
Yeah, why was the second active completely useless? She should have taken the guy out as soon as he attacked her.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
The problem with this show is that the "engagements" get in the way of what everyone wants: suspense and intrigue within the Dollhouse itself. There was almost a good moment involving Amy Acker's character and Echo's handler (the most believable actor in the series, IMHO.)
Posts: 532 | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
On the other hand, Sierra as Audra was mighty cute.
I thought the singer was an absolutely dreadful actress - they should have given her fewer lines, and left most of her serious psychological issues implied, rather than hammered to death. As with previous episodes, I thought the main plotline was less interesting than everything happening on the periphery. "What happened to the previous Sierra?"; Victor turning out to be an Active; that excellent moment at the end where Echo shakes her head at Sierra.
It's getting better, and I'm still giving it time. Buffy didn't hit its stride for a while either.
(How good was the FBI agent, though? He wins MVP for this week: gotta love a man who can count bullets effectively.)
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posted
It seems to me (from what I've seen of Whedon so far) that what he excels at is building interesting relationships between characters over time. But this show seems to be designed to keep him from doing that. Every week there will be a new set of characters that we probably won't see again. And the character relationships which will develop over time are only getting a few minutes every episode.
Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Eliza talks about Dollhouse at A.V. Club: link
quote:we’ve now done 13 episodes, and people have said that the show took off once they finally realized that Joss is best off left alone to do his thing. That happens around episode six — six through 13 are just extraordinary. I love one, two, three, four, and five, but Joss’ first script that he did after the pilot is number six, which is called “Man On The Street,” and it is just unbelievable. From that point on, the world unfolds in Joss’ way, with Joss’ speed, and it’s really remarkable.
posted
Ahh, that explains it. People getting in Joss' way. Alright, maybe we should stop watching -- or just hold our criticism -- until Joss gets control back at episode 6.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:I thought the singer was an absolutely dreadful actress
Really? I thought she did a fine job of portraying a whiny, self possessed teen idol. Which doesn't make the portrayal any less annoying, and probably didn't stretch the actresses' skills that much, but I didn't think there was anything objectively wrong with it.
I do agree the psychological issues were a little hammered.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Yeah, why was the second active completely useless? She should have taken the guy out as soon as he attacked her.
They did say she was for "extreme circumstances", but I don't think they get more extreme than that.
And Sierra's handler = useless.
At the end of the last episode, Echo nods a "no" to Sierra as they pass... What did *that* mean?
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
From what I understand it meant that they both remember something from their imprints/pasts and realize that acting on it wouldn't be good. Why exactly not (meaning whether they realize they are sometimes being erased) I don't know.
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Yeah, why was the second active completely useless? She should have taken the guy out as soon as he attacked her.
They said. She was only going to activate in case of emergency. Emergency for the client which Echo couldn't handle. That wasn't it.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I thought the singer was an absolutely dreadful actress
Really? I thought she did a fine job of portraying a whiny, self possessed teen idol. Which doesn't make the portrayal any less annoying, and probably didn't stretch the actresses' skills that much, but I didn't think there was anything objectively wrong with it.
posted
I read the "nod" differently. I figured Echo remembered the Useless Handler saying "the last thing I need is for you to rub off on her" and so when she saw Sierra smile and start to walk over to her, she shook her head. I really don't think Sierra remembers anything.
All that Echo remembered from being hunted was the shoulder punch thing, so it makes a kind of sense for her to only remember one thing from this imprint.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: All that Echo remembered from being hunted was the shoulder punch thing, so it makes a kind of sense for her to only remember one thing from this imprint.
I'm hoping that her "remembering" is going to spiral out of control fairly quickly - otherwise I think the REAL plot of this series is going to move along far too slowly.
Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: I really don't think Sierra remembers anything.
Why would she listen to Echo then? Just because she told her "no"? They all seemed pretty blank slates when they were inactive, understanding a head-shake to mean "no, don't come near me, there's danger" or something like that should be beyond Sierra's inactive state. At least that's what I think. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
They are blank slates personality-wise, not in understanding. Sierra looked confused when Echo shook her head, but she understands what a head shake means, and since Echo didn't slow down, she kept walking as well.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I'm wondering if Sierra's "emergency" job was to do exactly what she did, which was get taken hostage by the stalker.
When asked about the "last Sierra", who we must assume is dead, her handler said "she did her job". Maybe she was just there as a decoy to flush the stalker into the open.
They set her up pretty well as a target. "#1 Fan", putting her up on stage for everyone to see, having her be an easy mark, etc. If the stalker grabbed her, that would be protecting the client. Plus, as mentioned in Ep 2, if an active is damanged/dies, it's only a matter of extra fees for the client.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Dollhouse is not an enjoyable television program.
It's true that I've used a hypertext reference to link the word "Dollhouse" directly to a place where you can watch the show, but you should not interpret this as a recommendation. Being truly granular about what makes the show an affront would require the use of holographic data storage, but in general terms the show (as delivered) doesn't work. There's plenty of people to hate, and very few people to like. It's a science fiction retelling of MTV's The Real World, and it works about as well as you would expect.
What we are told by people (almost without exception) is that
1. I don't like the show, but 2. I will keep watching it as an expression of gratitude for a better, more engaging program he made back when he was making better, more engaging programs
which as a system of thought doesn't work for me. His acolytes are breathless for the show to reach apotheosis, like some scheming cult awaiting a fortuitous celestial arrangement. It's core to their belief: it's even woven into the press tour, the idea that the show isn't bad because it's bad.
SA
quote:I've been thinking a lot about feminism lately. Must be all the estrogen in the drinking water.
Whenever I start thinking like that my mind naturally ends up thinking about Joss Whedon. He's the self-described feminist behind shows like Buffy: The Vampire Slayer and Firefly.
His most recent effort, Dollhouse (Fox, Fridays at 9/8c), is about a very unusual escort service. Wealthy clients customize their dream dates to order. The Dollhouse programs personalities and skills into one of their "Actives" and sends them off on a fantasy date that never goes according to plan.
Eliza Dushku stars at the high-tech hooker Echo, mind-wiped for the pleasure of dudes around the globe. There are some other people on the show, like that black guy who looks sort of familiar and that guy from Battlestar Galactica who had a baby with a Cylon. No, the other guy.
Sexually menacing men punching, stabbing, shooting, or attempting rape on a hooker are a common theme of Dollhouse.
This is very empowering for women, because nothing says feminism quite like a brainwashed fantasy prostitute being punched and kicked in the face by a john.
posted
Heh, I don't get the second one... The point is exactly that the actives are very much "used" and it's not comfortable for everyone. I'd like to see someone hiring an active who has some issues with the whole process too, but I don't want everything to happen within the first three episodes.
As for the "anti-feminism", Alpha was a male, right?!
And remember how one of Echo's assignments was to be a negotiator, while Sierra was a soldier? Yes, they were still being used; no, those were not "dates". Sheesh, if they're gonna critique a show the least they could do would be to remember what they watched... Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:I'm hoping that her "remembering" is going to spiral out of control fairly quickly - otherwise I think the REAL plot of this series is going to move along far too slowly.
I'm hoping it's not. I like the delicate "reflection" development of character. Unless the show is going to morph dramatically (not necessarily a bad thing) too quick modification will
quote:His most recent effort, Dollhouse (Fox, Fridays at 9/8c), is about a very unusual escort service. Wealthy clients customize their dream dates to order. The Dollhouse programs personalities and skills into one of their "Actives" and sends them off on a fantasy date that never goes according to plan.
Obviously this person hasn't watched the show. I guess we've had two dates, one which ended well and the other which didn't.
As for why we haven't seen any male escorts-- even in real life male escorts are more uncommon than female escorts.
Lastly, the violence of men towards women is not anti-feminist unless the woman is depicted in an anti-feminist way. Buffy got beat up by male vampires all the time.
quote:1. I don't like the show, but 2. I will keep watching it as an expression of gratitude for a better, more engaging program he made back when he was making better, more engaging programs
I don't like the show but I think it's better than some other sci fi shows around. I think it has sparks of poorly-delivered intelligence. For example, in the third episode they talk about how Echo is modifying the missions and completing them in a more complete fashion than intended. This was a surprise given the vapidity of the rest of the episode. In CSI: Miami this wouldn't happen.
This should have been delivered in a clearer fashion and lacking the bits I skipped through (fights, sexy dancing).
I find what I miss from the show is people who have the quirky kind of way of being that makes them seem like normal people. In Firefly, everyone was gorgeous but they all had personality that made them seem like real people. Kaylee was colourful and happy, Jayne was stupid and violent in an oddly endearing way etc.
In Dollhouse, the only character who has managed to make this work is Claire, the doctor. The actress has a non-standard presence-- her voice is softer, she is retiring. Everyone else-- the genius, the handler, the security guy and the head honcho are all playing their roles like they belong something much blander. Heck, even CSI Miami has the bizarre but somehow workable Horatio.
I think it's likely because it's not a proper ensemble cast. They talk to each other, but they're not on screen with each other. They only appear in twos and threes.
Finally, I think this reviewer makes a mistake in saying that we might watch this show because in the past Whedon has been good. We watch this show because we know that Whedon is good and has demonstrated his excellence right up to Dr. Horrible last summer. If it's not showing in this show we're willing to append "yet" and wait.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:If it's not showing in this show we're willing to append "yet" and wait.
Especially when we hear this:
quote:we’ve now done 13 episodes, and people have said that the show took off once they finally realized that Joss is best off left alone to do his thing. That happens around episode six — six through 13 are just extraordinary. I love one, two, three, four, and five, but Joss’ first script that he did after the pilot is number six, which is called “Man On The Street,” and it is just unbelievable. From that point on, the world unfolds in Joss’ way, with Joss’ speed, and it’s really remarkable.
posted
It was interesting, but I'm still reserving judgement until after Joss gets taken off of Fox's leash.
These are the people who decided to show Firefly all out of order, after all. You can tell there's a heavy Fox hand on things (which is what is giving people the weird anti-feminist vibes, I think), and I'm waiting for it to hit its stride.
Still better than Heroes, and the most recent episode of 24.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I think the "anti-feminist-vibe" is there on purpose, to set up an initial position that can later be moved away from.
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posted
I post here about as often as "almost never", but I really think people are allowing 5 years and a great deal of nostalgia to cloud the actual reception of Firefly in 2003.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Maratanos, that may be. I didn't find Firefly until after it was canceled and the DVD series was out. But I feel it's important to point out that the series was aired as follows:
9/20 - Second Episode 9/27 - Third Episode 10/4 - Sixth Episode 10/18 - Seventh Episode 10/25 - Eighth Episode 11/1 - Fourth Episode 11/8 - Fifth Episode 11/15 - Ninth Episode 12/6 - Tenth Episode 12/13/02 - Fourteenth Episode 12/20 - First Episode NEVER - Eleventh Episode NEVER - Twelfth Episode NEVER - Thirteenth Episode
So how in the world could one expect to have a good reception of a show when it's delivered like that? And now contrast that to the reception when the DVD came out.
quote:...released on region 1 DVD on December 9, 2003...by September 2005, its DVD release had sold approximately 500,000 copies
quote:At Amazon.com the DVDs had average daily rankings of between 1st and 75th in 2003, 22nd and 397th in 2004, 2nd and 232nd in 2005, and 2nd and 31st in 2006 as of June 27, 2006.
( From Wikipedia - Firefly )
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Not sure about the 'almost never' Maratanos, but welcome!
Yeah, the reception for Firefly was pretty dire, as were the reviews of it I read at the time. But I saw about three episodes of its run on first airing and thought it had potential, so I was quite sad to see it go. (I was much more sad when I'd seen the whole series, though).
The other show I liked that year (2002) was 'Haunted' which was also cancelled after about four weeks. Then it was basically remade in France (different enough for there to be no plagiarism issue but obviously inspired by the same material) and cancelled after six episodes there too.
Now I just have to wait and see whether Dollhouse gets cancelled before I’ve even had a chance to watch it.
The moral? Clearly I have unusual taste in TV, and most people have none. Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
An article in today's Washington Post talks about how networks next season are going back to closed ended dramas and laugh track sitcoms. Critics don't like them, they don't develop cult followings, but they get higher ratings.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Is 500,000 copies a good number for a DVD? I'm not actually sure. I know a AAA-budgeted game is considered a failure if it hits under a million — but the costs, etc, involved are very different.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
For a DVD boxed set of a television show, I'd imagine that's quite high... especially for a cancelled show that was aired out of order.
Once the movie was announced, I'm sure sales improved as well.
Don't forget that Firefly was also juggled in timeslot multiple times, adding to the difficulty.
I never saw it when it was aired... though I remembered seeing a commercial for it once, and looking for it one night I thought it was going to be on and not finding it. It wasn't until Chris Bridges started talking it up leading into the movie that I got hooked.
I'm willing to give Dollhouse a few more episodes, and I'm hoping Fox is too.
I was also hoping they'd give Drive more episodes, which they didn't... and I enjoyed the first few episodes of that more than I've enjoyed the first few of Dollhouse.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: closed ended dramas
What are those? Some examples wouldn't hurt too.
Law and Order is one example.
Basically where you can pretty much watch a single episode at any point in the series, with little to no back ground knowledge. If I started with the third episode of Dollhouse I would be lost. They want to move away from serial dramas like Lost and 24.
They are also finding old fashioned laugh track sitcoms are fairing better right now. Many were shocked to find Two and a Half Men doing better in the ratings than The Office.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I actually kinda liked this past episode. I thought Echo's remote wipe made for an interesting twist, and it focused a little more on the Dollhouse itself rather than the engagements, which I find a lot more interesting, mostly because it's so mysterious right now. The politics are becoming a little clearer, and Adelle was finally seen in a position of some vulnerability. It's still kinda weak, but it's much improved from the first three episodes.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Well, I don't like either one (Two and a Half Men or The Office). But I do like The Big Bang Theory and How I Met Your Mother ... surprising, after I thought the sitcom was dead. But they do tend to sort of have story arcs - especially HIMYM. I like them both better than Lost.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: Because the television audience is stupid. I mean, after all, they didn't like Firefly, right?
Again, I feel the need to reiterate that fact that a television audience didn't really get a chance to like Firefly. I have showed / lent my DVD set out nearly a dozen times, to a wide range of television audiencees, and so far they've all loved it.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I fear I'm in the "hoping the show gets better" camp at this point. Episodes 1-3 were all right. 4 annoyed me. It seems clear that the Dollhouse has resources other than Actives available to it; it would be nice to stop sending Actives and their Handlers into situations that would be better handled by a single, regular expert. Episode 4 felt like we spent a lot of time watching our lead, and the supposedly competent staff surrounding her, spend a lot of time standing around going "Uh..."
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
It looks like next week Helo sees Echo. That could be interesting. I also wasn't that impressed by the last episode. It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief. Of course, I suppose it is possible that the client some how had the dollhouse connection but not the thief connection (though that seems a bit weird too). I think it would have been more interesting to have the mystery person who wiped Echo not be Alpha (or implied to be Alpha). Another mysterious rival organization could be a fun deepening of the plot. Of course, so far Alpha just hasn't interested me.
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quote: It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief.
An "expert thief", no matter how professional he/she may be, (1) will always remember their involvement, (2) will probably cost more in terms of taking a share of the multi-million dollar prize for the theft.
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