quote:So in cases where a Muslim man marries a Jewish women (r'ltz), the State of Israel, in all its slavish wish to bend over backwards and make others happy, registers the child as Muslim.
Is this true regardless of the wishes of the parents? Could the parents choose to have the child registered as Jewish or something else?
Beats me. I doubt it's ever happened.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: According to my sources, interfaith and non-religious marriages are not recognized in Israel so I'm not sure what you mean about the state Slavishly bending over when Muslim man "marries" a Jewish woman.
If they marry elsewhere. Israel accepts marriages performed abroad. Also, Muslim family status is under the aegis of the Muslim religious authorities in Israel, so if they choose to do such a marriage, they can.
More discrimination against Jews. <sigh>
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What do the do when a child has a Jewish father and a Muslim mother?
Who cares? I'd hope they'd register the child as a Muslim. It certainly isn't a Jew.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: And this is exactly what I object to. Every human being deserves the right to citizenship in his native land.
Says who?
It's funny... you read stories about criminals in Turkey and Spain and other places who've watched American cop shows on cable. When they get arrested, they're all, "But you didn't read me my rights!" Get a grip, Rabbit. As much as some Americans might like it to be otherwise, America doesn't rule the world, and American standards, while good for America, aren't necessarily good in other contexts.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Edit: And y'know Lisa, you've said many times that you'd support a complete and immediate cessation of US foreign aid to Israel. I believe you mean it, but I'm not so sure at all if you'd keep meaning it if this ever became anything more substantial than the very abstract issue it is right now.
I've been saying it for the past 25 years. And I mean it. I'd do quite a lot for it to happen.
(Edit) Of course, I'd also campaign for an end to aid for Israel's neighbors as well, but if that wasn't an option, I'd still ask for an end to aid for Israel.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Because right now, and for the forseeable future, US foreign aid is going to keep flowing to Israel. Both parties want it to continue, with no signs showing of that mutual desire tapering off. So I guess what I'm saying is, "It sounds nice."
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... When you move to Israel, you're asked your religion. If you don't identify as a Jew, then you don't get the rights given to a Jew.
If that is correct, then it seems to me that it didn't make sense for The Rabbit to breakout atheist Jews and Mormon Jews as being treated separately, both get treated the same.
I doubt it. An atheist Jew who wants to move to Israel is likely to say "I'm Jewish, but I don't believe."
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quote:Also, atheism isn't a religion; it's a mistake.
And Judaism is a lie. Atheists, however, do not generally attempt to use force to prevent people from believing such lies.
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Any system of government based on the idea that some people born in the country are more equal than others is inherently flawed. It was wrong when it was built into the U.S. Constitution, and it's still wrong 150 years after that ended.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... I doubt it. An atheist Jew who wants to move to Israel is likely to say "I'm Jewish, but I don't believe."
*shrug* A Mormon could just say the same thing.
I'd figure an atheist would have no qualms about lying, particularly if it's to get something he thinks he's being denied unjustly because of religion. Do Mormons feel the same way?
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"I'd figure an atheist would have no qualms about lying, particularly if it's to get something he thinks he's being denied unjustly because of religion"
The assertion being that atheists are more prone to lying than religious folk?
I seriously doubt you could demonstrate any objective reason for believing this.
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Is that lying though? If someone is literally saying "I'm Jewish, but I don't believe" then clearly they're not saying that they are Jewish due to any religious belief. It would seem to me that they are asserting that they're Jewish in terms of ethnicity/heredity/whatever.
At least, it is not clear to me that they would think that they are lying.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I'd figure an atheist would have no qualms about lying, particularly if it's to get something he thinks he's being denied unjustly because of religion.
You figure wrong.
But that's not unexpected. Your posts here only show that you're only here to spew and never actually tried to have a conversation.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... When you move to Israel, you're asked your religion. If you don't identify as a Jew, then you don't get the rights given to a Jew.
If that is correct, then it seems to me that it didn't make sense for The Rabbit to breakout atheist Jews and Mormon Jews as being treated separately, both get treated the same.
I doubt it. An atheist Jew who wants to move to Israel is likely to say "I'm Jewish, but I don't believe."
My question is, why would Atheist Jews want to move to Israel? I consider myself one now, loved and cherished the 10 days I spent there, but frankly would rather move to Canada or Australia.
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Rabbit, Israel was created as a state for the Jews. As a refuge, but also because it's our home, and after spending almost 2000 years expelled from it against our wishes, and proclaiming our intent to eventually return on a daily basis, we've finally started to do so.
So you can trace every one of your ancestors back to the same group of people living in the same little area for 2,000 years? Sounds like that's a big part of your problem right there. Family trees are supposed to have branches.
I'm reminded of a Ben Folds song:
quote: I can feel that someone's blasting me with hate and bass Sending dirty vibes my way 'Cause my great-great-great-great-granddad Made someone's great-great-great-great-granddaddies slaves It wasn't my idea...
Yes, a long dead group of people once did something bad to another long dead group of people. That was 2,000 years ago, and none of them was you or anyone you know. Maybe it's time to let it go.
Better yet, after all these centuries, maybe it's time for you to marry an Arab. If your mama had married an Arab, there's a chance you'd have been able to live your life in peace, rather than wasting it being consumed with hatred and xenophobia.
That seems like a much better gift to give your children than another generation of inbreeding.
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What was that thing about using God's name in vain?
As far as I can tell, saying "Oh God, I wish I had a million dollars" or even "God damnit, this hurts" isn't taking his name in vain, because you're speaking the truth, from your own perspective. But to put words in the mouth of God, well, that's the very essence of blasphemy. Good thing blasphemy is a victimless crime or you'd be up a creek.
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Well, yeah. The guy apostasized, Rabbit. Sure, he's still Jewish, but he's the one who opted out. Now he wants to complain that he isn't being given the same perks as Jews who didn't? That's awfully self-serving.
.....
Are they Jewish? Did he marry a Jew? If they aren't Jewish, why do you think they should get citizenship? Just because they were born there? Because that's how it works in the US? Sorry, but that's hardly the rule, and it'll never be the rule in Israel. As I said, Israel is the state of the Jews; not the state of the people who happen to live there at any given time.
You made constant references in, I can't remember if it's the locked thread or the Obama thread or both, to a recent court case where, to paraphrase you 'it's now illegal to marry a Jew.' Well, the actual details of the court case do not make it illegal to marry a Jew, but if an Egyptian does marry a Jew, they lose their citizenship.
So here's my question: How is that wrong, but this is okay?
Israel sets the standard of Judaism for citizenship, Egypt sets it as Islam, with a...well, tenuous tolerance of Christian populations at least. In Israel, in your words, children of Jews and Muslims are declared Muslims, and I would imagine don't have citizenship, and in Egypt, now, if a Muslim marries a Jew, they lose citizenship. It would seem you're drawing an extremely fine line here.
Near as I can tell from reading the details of that court case, by the way, the judges involved were far more concerned about Egyptians who move to Israel, get married, and then try to bring their wives back to Egypt, rather than just a blanket attack on Judaism (though I'm not ruling out the possibility).
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The more I see of it, the more I think that if one specifically *wanted* to make people less sympathetic to Israel and less amenable to lisa's causes, the best way to do so would be to argue pretty much like lisa and eventually cycle into this whole idea of a theocratic nation where you have to be a jew to vote and if you do something like marry a non-jew you don't get to vote anymore* and this is the way it should be and god says so and let me smirk and berate you for not finding this the best most appropriate idea etc etc etc.
It may as well have been crafted purposefully to transmit the notion "hi, I'm so radical that people like me can never, ever be trusted with the future of Israel, man, we'd screw that place up gooooooood"
* edit: OR if you marry a non-jew just your KID doesn't get to vote ever, OR if ONLY you are the male and you marry a jewish female, your kid doesn't get to vote ever, but maybe perhaps if it is the other way around and if the mom is jewish then it's okay to be a REAL citizen of Israel, gee, sorry if I get some convoluted literal-interpretation theological social policy details wrong
posted
It almost makes you wonder if Lisa really hates Israel, she's such an effective argument against its constitution.
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Its clear that Israel has an identity crisis which is probably one of the biggest barriers (after actual violence) to peace. Israel can't decide whether it's a Democratic State that is for the Jews as a refuge, or that its a Jewish State that happens to use democracy.
That's whats leads to a lot of the disagreements between hard liners like Lisa and some people who are more moderate. Hard liners hold its a Jewish State and Torah Law and having all of the land is most important while the moderates believe that the state is meant to be as free as possible as long as it can always be a refuge for the Jews to live without fear.
Until Israel can choose which type of state it is, nothing will ever be solved.
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What was that thing about using God's name in vain?
As far as I can tell, saying "Oh God, I wish I had a million dollars" or even "God damnit, this hurts" isn't taking his name in vain, because you're speaking the truth, from your own perspective. But to put words in the mouth of God, well, that's the very essence of blasphemy. Good thing blasphemy is a victimless crime or you'd be up a creek.
Or maybe you simply don't know the definition of blasphemy.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You made constant references in, I can't remember if it's the locked thread or the Obama thread or both, to a recent court case where, to paraphrase you 'it's now illegal to marry a Jew.' Well, the actual details of the court case do not make it illegal to marry a Jew, but if an Egyptian does marry a Jew, they lose their citizenship.
So here's my question: How is that wrong, but this is okay?
It's all in the details. Ordinarily, Muslim men are allowed, and sometimes even encouraged, to marry non-Muslim women. But this ruling was that they aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim women from Israel. Not because they're members of another religion, but because they're Israeli. It isn't even slightly in the same realm.
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quote:Originally posted by Geekazoid: Its clear that Israel has an identity crisis which is probably one of the biggest barriers (after actual violence) to peace. Israel can't decide whether it's a Democratic State that is for the Jews as a refuge, or that its a Jewish State that happens to use democracy.
That's whats leads to a lot of the disagreements between hard liners like Lisa and some people who are more moderate. Hard liners hold its a Jewish State and Torah Law and having all of the land is most important while the moderates believe that the state is meant to be as free as possible as long as it can always be a refuge for the Jews to live without fear.
Until Israel can choose which type of state it is, nothing will ever be solved.
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: My question is, why would Atheist Jews want to move to Israel?
Many do. Some I have met have tried to explain it to me. I didn't entirely understand, but I'll do my best to relay what I was told.
You can be proud to be part of the Jewish nation, and wish to be in our homeland, even if you believe God is a nice idea, rather than an aspect of reality.
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An idea that sounds less and less "nice" (and less and less like God) the more it is described here.
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Was that necessary? I have no interest in engaging in any side of the nastiness. I was just trying to answer an honest question.
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Rivka, I don't know if you believe as Lisa does or not. And I am not asking you to answer that.
For me, stating that the kind of God who would want what Lisa has been describing is neither nice nor just nor God is as necessary as any part of this conversation.
I have a hard time wondering how someone who doesn't even have the reason of believing that God is real would choose to think that any of it - as described as Lisa has done - is nice.
Added: I mean really. "I don't really believe in God but how wonderful there is a(nother) country where you only have rights if you belong to a certain ethnic group and other people are discriminated against. Let's work toward that!"
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Rivka, I don't know if you believe as Lisa does or not. And I am not asking you to answer that.
I would have to pick apart what she says and explain which parts I disagree strongly with, which I sort of agree with but with caveats, which I don't even understand where she gets them from, and which I actually agree with completely.
I have no interest in doing that sort of unraveling.
Regardless, I strongly object to my statement being used as a springboard for negativity when I was doing my darnedest to stay out of it.
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rivka: For my part, I appreciated the answer and I'm not totally unsympathetic. There are some parallels in the Chinese community.
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Kmb, you are very silly if you want to judge Judaism based on Lisa's personality type.
If you prefer - just see it as Rivka's nation and Rivka's God. Does that make it easier? Rivka is a really nice person.
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Armoth, you're very sweet. I expect it doesn't help much; Kate is still pretty angry with me about prop. 8. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: My question is, why would Atheist Jews want to move to Israel?
Many do. Some I have met have tried to explain it to me. I didn't entirely understand, but I'll do my best to relay what I was told.
You can be proud to be part of the Jewish nation, and wish to be in our homeland, even if you believe God is a nice idea, rather than an aspect of reality.
This seems along the lines of how Einstein felt about the the Jewish people.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
"a nice idea"? You DO realize how that sounds right?
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quote:Israel sets the standard of Judaism for citizenship
No it doesn't. It reacts to the standard of Judaism for persecution. Go check the Nuremburg Laws.
Um, I'm not sure if that really follows...
This is something I don't really know, it's just what I've picked up from reading Lisa's posts, but do you or do you not need to be Jewish to have full citizenship rights? If you do, then nothing you just said really matters so far as my argument goes. If you don't, then I've gotten the wrong impression, and that takes things in another direction.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You made constant references in, I can't remember if it's the locked thread or the Obama thread or both, to a recent court case where, to paraphrase you 'it's now illegal to marry a Jew.' Well, the actual details of the court case do not make it illegal to marry a Jew, but if an Egyptian does marry a Jew, they lose their citizenship.
So here's my question: How is that wrong, but this is okay?
It's all in the details. Ordinarily, Muslim men are allowed, and sometimes even encouraged, to marry non-Muslim women. But this ruling was that they aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim women from Israel. Not because they're members of another religion, but because they're Israeli. It isn't even slightly in the same realm.
That's not true actually, in a number of ways. What you linked to was a fatwa, which doesn't have legally binding force, at least not usually. Sometimes it can in matters of marriage, which we're dealing with, but almost always in shia dominant countries, which isn't the case with Egypt. Fatwas are guiding principles on religious matters, and can be taken into consideration in court cases. The original court case that you referenced initially does not outlaw marriage to non-Muslim Jews, it removes citizenship for doing it, though marriage to a Muslim Israeli still allows for the retention of citizenship.
So it still comes back to a matter of citizenship. Even Egypt allows non-Muslims to be citizens. I've gotten the impression that non-Jews aren't given full citizenship. And that the children of Muslim men are considered Muslim, and would thus also not have citizenship.
I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make.
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quote:Israel sets the standard of Judaism for citizenship
No it doesn't. It reacts to the standard of Judaism for persecution. Go check the Nuremburg Laws.
Um, I'm not sure if that really follows...
This is something I don't really know, it's just what I've picked up from reading Lisa's posts, but do you or do you not need to be Jewish to have full citizenship rights? If you do, then nothing you just said really matters so far as my argument goes. If you don't, then I've gotten the wrong impression, and that takes things in another direction.
Judaism is not a requirement to be a citizen of Israel.
--Edit: If I understand her correctly, Lisa wants things to change so the Judaism is a requirement for citizenship.--
(I'm sure someone's posted about the Arabs who didn't listen to their leaders, stayed put during the War of Independence, and became citizens, while those who listened and fled got stuck by those same leaders in refugee camps.)
People of all religions are treated the same under the law with 2 major exceptions that I can think of:
1)Only (non-chareidi) Jews are drafted into the army. Non-Jews must volunteer if thet want to serve.
2)The Law of Return. This was enacted so that whenever Jews were being persecuted because they were Jews, there would be a place that would welcome them for because they were Jews. Most Anti-Semites don't actually care about the definition of a Jew according to halacha (Jewish Law) and consider anyone with 1 Jewsih grandparent Jewish enough to kill. The law reflects that as we don't want anyone persecuted as a Jew to be without options.
However, lots of areas, like marriage, are left under religious juristiction, which obviously has different rules for members and non-members. So when people want to get married, they go to the appropiate religious authority for their faith who presumably won't let them marry outside the faith.
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"Added: I mean really. "I don't really believe in God but how wonderful there is a(nother) country where you only have rights if you belong to a certain ethnic group and other people are discriminated against. Let's work toward that!" "
What Lisa has described is her vision of what israel should be. Not how it is, and not how atheist jews work to make israel.
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The only ways to become a citizen, according to wikipedia:
1. By return. Jews only. 2. By residence if you lived there before 1948. 3. If you parents are already citizens. Not actually a method. 4. By naturalization, which is only available to permanent residents. You can only become a permanent residence at the discretion at the Minister of the Interior, who has basically carte blance to set policy about who and when.
quote:To be eligible for naturalization, a person must have resided in Israel for three years out of the previous five years. In addition, the applicant must have a right to reside in Israel on a permanent basis. All naturalization requests are, however, at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior.
I'm having a very, very hard time finding instructions for becoming a permanent resident, although all sorts of rules about who can't become a permanent resident (if you aren't already a citizen and live in Gaza, for instance) are everywhere.
I did find this:
quote:there is no immigration law that applies to non-Jews
quote: How can Christian Zionists gain long-term status in Israel, which only officially accepts Jewish immigrants?
Long-term status - not citizenship. Reading it, you basically have to be related to someone Jewish and sneak in through a back door, back doors that have been forced open by the courts.
Citizens of all religions may be the same under the law, but citizenship is officially only open to Jews and special cases the courts have forced Israel to allow.
Discrimination is far, far too weak a word for this.
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posted
If someone's goal was to turn people against Israel's present constitution and convince them it is inherently discriminatory, I think they would act exactly as Lisa does.
I am honestly curious as to what she thinks she is doing. Is this a secret vendetta?
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quote:I am honestly curious as to what she thinks she is doing
Being honest and forthright to the point of bull-headedness. That's Lisa's thing, and to be frank I respect her for it.
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quote:Originally posted by adenam: --Edit: If I understand her correctly, Lisa wants things to change so the Judaism is a requirement for citizenship.--
Correct.
quote:Originally posted by adenam: 1)Only (non-chareidi) Jews are drafted into the army. Non-Jews must volunteer if thet want to serve.
Some non-Jews can serve if they volunteer. Some can't. And the "non-chareidi" is not true. Chareidim are drafted just like anyone else. Some of them get exemptions to learn in Yeshiva. Some secular kids get exemptions for other reasons, or simply leave the country for a while to avoid service.
Women do a shorter stint, and they're allowed to do national service instead of army if their religious views require it. They're allowed to do neither, too, if their religious views require it.
quote:Originally posted by adenam: 2)The Law of Return. This was enacted so that whenever Jews were being persecuted because they were Jews, there would be a place that would welcome them for because they were Jews. Most Anti-Semites don't actually care about the definition of a Jew according to halacha (Jewish Law) and consider anyone with 1 Jewsih grandparent Jewish enough to kill. The law reflects that as we don't want anyone persecuted as a Jew to be without options.
Well, I'm all for people being allowed in if they meet the anti-semitic definition, but I still want citizenship limited to Jews.
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Lisa, Would you consider it acceptable if any other country restricted citizenship based on religion. Suppose the US were to limit citizenship to Christians or France were to withhold citizenship from Jews, would you find that acceptable? Do you think it is acceptable for Muslim countries to restrict citizenship to Muslims?
If not, why do you see Israel as an exception to this rule and if "God wants it that way is your answer" you need to explain why you believe God wants it that way and why your belief should be considered any more valid than the say Mahmoud Ahmadinejad belief that God wants the Jews removed from Palestine.
As Barack Obama said
quote: Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. . . . . Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality.
So if you are not simply depending on God to make his will law in Israel but are hoping for cooperation of others in achieving what you see as the God's will for Israel/Palestine, you need to persuade us not just make unprovable irrational claims.
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