quote:If not, why do you see Israel as an exception to this rule...
One of the reasons that Holocaust-denying is a popular sport among anti-semites is that the Holocaust is often used as an argument to prove that the Jews need a state they can keep to themselves.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
If the Holocaust is the reason why Jews should be allowed a strictly Jewish state, would you support this kind of state for other groups who have experienced genocide, for example Gypsies or the Lakotah? If not, why not?
Also, if the Holocaust if the reason for restricting citizenship, why would you not allow citizenship to all those who were considered Jews in the Holocaust and not solely those who are considered Jews by the Rabbinate.
BTW, my friend was considered a Jew by the Germans during WW II. His parents fled Nazi Germany. Even if he had converted during WW II, the Nazi's would still have considered him a Jew yet he would not be allowed refuge in Israel under current laws as I understand them.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Lisa, Would you consider it acceptable if any other country restricted citizenship based on religion. Suppose the US were to limit citizenship to Christians or France were to withhold citizenship from Jews, would you find that acceptable? Do you think it is acceptable for Muslim countries to restrict citizenship to Muslims?
In order, depends on the country, no, and yes.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: If not, why do you see Israel as an exception to this rule and if "God wants it that way is your answer" you need to explain why you believe God wants it that way and why your belief should be considered any more valid than the say Mahmoud Ahmadinejad belief that God wants the Jews removed from Palestine.
Um... because Judaism is true?
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: As Barack Obama said
[QUOTE] Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. . . . .
Not really. Democracy is simply a method of reaching decisions. American democracy is a different thing, as it's based on the idea of a nationality that comes from the people, rather than a people with a certain nationality. Do you get the difference? It seems not.
France is to French as America is to American as Israel is to Jewish. Not as Israel is to Israeli. So long as you don't get that, this entire "discussion" is pointless.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:If not, why do you see Israel as an exception to this rule...
One of the reasons that Holocaust-denying is a popular sport among anti-semites is that the Holocaust is often used as an argument to prove that the Jews need a state they can keep to themselves.
Why bother denying the Holocaust? Wouldn't it be much easier to just point out what a terrible argument that is?
Posts: 563 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: If the Holocaust is the reason why Jews should be allowed a strictly Jewish state,
It isn't. God, I hate the "Jewish history began in Auschwitz" crowd. And Rabbit, you don't "allow" us or not "allow" us a state. God decided that that's the land of the Jews. Yes, it's worthwhile to point out that since you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries, it's unreasonable for us to be completely at your whim. In all honesty, we have no idea when you're going to revert to that sort of behavior again. It's been our experience that Christian "tolerance" of Jews never lasts more than a century or two in any given locale. And hell, things were getting pretty bad for Jews in the US up until the Holocaust. "No Jews or Dogs" wasn't that uncommon a sign in these United States. The Holocaust shocked Americans into pulling out of that direction, but we're going to need a lot more than 60 years or so to be convinced that you're actually safe.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Also, if the Holocaust if the reason for restricting citizenship, why would you not allow citizenship to all those who were considered Jews in the Holocaust and not solely those who are considered Jews by the Rabbinate.
Your premise is false, since it isn't, but as it happens, Israel allows anyone with one Jewish grandparent (any grandparent) to get citizenship under the Law of Return. One of the horrible side effects of that is that when the Soviet Union fell, Israel was inundated with non-Jews, many of whom are actually quite anti-semitic themselves. But they got all the entitlements, and it was too good to pass up.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: BTW, my friend was considered a Jew by the Germans during WW II. His parents fled Nazi Germany. Even if he had converted during WW II, the Nazi's would still have considered him a Jew yet he would not be allowed refuge in Israel under current laws as I understand them.
Well, maybe he shouldn't have apostasized. Christianity is idolatry for a Jew, and idolatry is one of the things that we're obligated to die rather than commit. You're not going to find any sympathy here.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
You'd think. But I don't think that the ability to construct a coherent argument correlates well with a tendency to deny that the Holocaust happened.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:So long as you don't get that, this entire "discussion" is pointless.
Does "get that" equal "agree with that?"
You don't have to participate in conversations which you find pointless, Lisa.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I think it kinda needs to be understood is that a) if we can agree that the majority of ethnic groups desire a nation-state ergo we can agree that the Jews deserve one, and since they already have a state it is thus disingenuous to at this junction imply or discuss the possibility of them not having a state or force them into some sort of framework where they're no better then an autonomous part of another state.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum the Jews deserve a state and since they already have a state they thus ergo have every right to defend it to their fullest capabilities, all other concerns are secondary to the cause of national survival, that Israel currently does undertake actions to prove it IS more civilized and holds the moral high ground demonsrates they're moral character.
IP: Logged |
quote:Yes, it's worthwhile to point out that since you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries, it's unreasonable for us to be completely at your whim.
That was completely uncalled for. I have not killed Jews, do not support the killing of Jews, and in fact have actively worked to protect the rights of Jews. My religion is less than 200 years old and in that time my co-religionists have never supported the killing of Jews.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi: ... Why bother denying the Holocaust? Wouldn't it be much easier to just point out what a terrible argument that is?
Alternatively, if one *was* a rational anti-semite, why would one point that out?
The current situation almost seems perfect, rather than having to go around invading countries and then killing people off, why not establish a trap with the cheese essentially being their own belief that they have to be in a specific land? Why not let them isolate themselves in a strategically unwise location surrounded by moody and unpredictable theocracies armed with weapons of mass destruction and give them both enough time and money to gather most of themselves there? Even better, why not give them the false-confidence that they can stand toe-to-toe with that crowd indefinitely even as the US is deteriorating?
I'm not unsympathetic to the human desire to establish a place, a safe haven, for one's own people. But this seems to be a very very terrible way of going about it. The flip-side of this is that an anti-semite should be happy about the existence of Israel and especially happy if it follows the path laid out in this thread.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: My religion is less than 200 years old and in that time my co-religionists have never supported the killing of Jews.
Well-- that's not quite true. I support Jews' rights to eat babies, and if they eat JEWISH babies, then I guess I support killing Jews.
It bugs me that they don't share, though. I'm totally willing to share all the babies I'd eat. Why they gotta be mean, huh?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:It isn't. God, I hate the "Jewish history began in Auschwitz" crowd. And Rabbit, you don't "allow" us or not "allow" us a state.
What have I said to imply that Jewish history began with Auschwitz? Can you please stick to the arguments I make and not the ones someone else has made at some point in time.
And now I'm going to live and cool off because I don't like being accused of murdering for sport.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:France is to French as America is to American as Israel is to Jewish.
America is not to American as France is to French, so I'm not sure how to interpret this. You become American simply by living in America and accepting the idea of being American, whereas I think becoming French requires more than that.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: My religion is less than 200 years old and in that time my co-religionists have never supported the killing of Jews.
Armoth, you're very sweet. I expect it doesn't help much; Kate is still pretty angry with me about prop. 8. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
Honestly, it had nothing to do with that. It actually had nothing to do with you at all. I would have made that response to that post whoever made it. It was, as you suggested, a springboard. The idea of God being a nice idea in juxtaposition to the God that was being described was appalling.
Armoth, nice people can believe really horrid things. I have no idea what parts of this Rivka believes or doesn't and I respect her wish not to make that clear. If you or others care to refute what Lisa says God wants Israel to be, that would be great.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The more Lisa talks, the more I'm convinced that she is hellbent on making Israel appear as loony, racist, and tyrranical as possible.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
The holocaust is not the only argument for the creation of the state of Israel. Herzl had been putting things in motion for an Israeli homeland for years before. His motivator was actually the progroms in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century.
What Lisa means about Jewish history beginning in Auschwitz (If I am correct) is that Jews have been at the mercy of their not-so-welcoming Christian hosts for centuries.From the 11th century to the 15th - we have faced crusades, libels, expulsions from all of Western Europe, ritual murder trials, collective punishment, laws restricting Jewish freedoms, laws ensuring the Christian doctrines of perpetual servitude. Jews were portrayed as pigs, demons, witch-lovers, host desecrators, etc. etc.
When Jews were living in Eastern Europe they faced similar threats, and were massacred in the 17th century when they were caught in between Poles and Cossacks. Stuff like that + Progroms in Russia until the Holocaust leads the average Jew to believe that we need our own homeland. Is this a difficult argument to understand in light of our Jewish history?
Edit: I felt like I was an American my entire life, until a swatstika was painted on my garage door. In light of our history, can you not understand how Jews are skittish even with the U.S., best hosts they have ever had in history?
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It isn't difficult to understand. It's just a bad argument.
I would appreciate you demonstrating why it is a bad argument. I think I have done my best to explain why I think it is not.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Stuff like that + Progroms in Russia until the Holocaust leads the average Jew to believe that we need our own homeland. Is this a difficult argument to understand in light of our Jewish history?
Not at all. Jews have a right, like every other civilized human being to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
They have a right to participate in the government and the defense of the society in which they live.
So do the non-Jews living in, or coming to, Israel.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
What Scott said. The right to pursue a life free from persecution and discrimination is not a license to persecute and discriminate against others.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
The civil rights movement is an incredibly new movement. While I choose to live in America, the option of living in Israel makes me feel safe. The reason for this is because we, as a people, have not experienced tolerance and the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for more than a century in any country.
Check out the mass exodus of Jews from France going on right now. British Jews are only faring a bit better. French Canadian Jews experience anti-semetic attacks all the time.
The U.S. is infinitely better - but like I said, I had a swatstika painted on my garage. While I firmly believe the U.S. is different, my survival instinct tells me that it is not in my interest not to be skeptical.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
I was only defending the right of Israel to exist. Not on the right of Israel to discriminate.
I do not agree with Lisa. As was explained above - Lisa is an extreme opinion. Muslim citizenship is another story right now because of security issues, but I have no problem with Christian or Druze citizenship.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am starting to understand that the statement "Israel has a right to exist" has the unspoken addendum of "as a discriminatory theocracy."
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I am starting to understand that the statement "Israel has a right to exist" has the unspoken addendum of "as a discriminatory theocracy."
ok. You're not listening to me.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
Like Tom said, many ethnic and religious groups want a state where they can keep anyone who doesn't belong to that group out. That doesn't make it okay - it's an inherently bad idea.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you don't discriminate against who is allowed to immigrate and become citizens, how does it remain an exclusively Jewish state? *serious question*
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well-- Utah is a Mormon state, isn't it? You could reasonably expect your kids not to be teased for being Mormon if you lived there.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am and have been a long time supporter of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. In fact, I support the existence of Muslim states. As a person who has argued the need for a Mormon state (and agree fully it isn't going to happen), then I would be a complete hypocrite to not be supportive.
My problem is that Israel doesn't know what it wants to be as a poster said above. No matter what those say who disagree with Lisa, her explanations are closest to the reality of Israel as seen by an outsider. Even one like me who is in support. It infuriates me that Israel so much wants to have its cake and eat it too so far as religious freedom. When it is described as a democracy I have a big question mark above that.
Is the state of Israel a Jewish state or not? If it isn't than deciding citizenship on "Jewishness" should be done away with. If it is then stop voting with one hand while crossing your fingers when it comes to Jewish related laws. I admit that it has some similarity to early Roman citizenship status laws. That is fine, but the least Israel could do is be consistent with those laws.
This does bring up a question that hasn't been answered, or I missed it. Is proselyting illegal in Israel?
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The U.S. has immigration laws as well. If the entire Muslim world decided to move to the U.S. and exercise voting rights - it'd be a bit of a problem.
It is difficult to deal with the Palestinian population because you can't exactly naturalize enemies of the state.
As for everyone else - It's like my undergraduate university. Yeshiva. There aren't many non-Jews who apply to Yeshiva University, but YU will not discriminate against non-Jews who wish to attend. But YU is Jewish - it teaches Judaism, is organized around the Jewish calendar, bends over backwards to facilitate a Jewish lifestyle, etc.
Additionally, Israel has the right of return to make it easier for Jews to be citizens.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: ... While I choose to live in America, the option of living in Israel makes me feel safe.
Ah, this must be some new use of the word "safe" that I'm unfamiliar with. Under the old one, living in a border-line war zone and being bombarded weekly if not daily, is not quite "safe."
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
"If the entire Muslim world decided to move to the U.S. and exercise voting rights - it'd be a bit of a problem."
It would only be a problem if Muslims didn't follow the laws to become citizens. However, there is nothing in the U.S. laws that would keep them from voting; even if that meant voting the Constitution out of existence.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
