quote:Originally posted by Mucus: ]No, IIRC, the same study noted that both South Asians and East Asians were more likely than the rest of the population to go to discount supermarkets. Given that US Asians typically have lower obesity levels than the general population, they're probably not simply buying more food at lower prices. The obvious conclusion is that many Asians are either buying a greater variety of food (and exotic foods cost more) or that they're dual-tracking their own kitchens, preparing both their own style of food and North American food.
There are many conclusions we could have, except the one you want to make.
For example: How many members does a Chinese-Canadian household has on average when compared to a Canadian household? If they have households with more members, then obviously they spend more money on food.
Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.
You can't just pick and choose whatever conclusion you want, when there are other equally logical ones, unless you have hard data to back it up.
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quote:Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.
Mucus' original post stated that they Chinese households tend to shop at asian markets which are cheaper per item.
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I googled how "authentic" MacDonald's is in China, and found out it's about as authentic as the Asian restaurants are in the West. So I think your argument isn't working.
"We are also hard at work in the flavor laboratories we have in mainland China and Hong Kong, coming up with menu items that meld with the lifestyle of Chinese people, and that suit the taste buds of Chinese consumers.”
And reality shows that the “Quarter Pounder” in China is not exactly the same as the American one. Cucumbers replace pickles, and tomatoes and spicy sauce were added, ingredients that appeal to Chinese taste. This is the result of doing taste tests with 16 different combinations of various ingredients complimenting the Quarter Pounder.
While McDonald’s has thought about introducing the rice sandwiches/hamburgers it has brought out into Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore into the Chinese market, consumer taste tests have revealed that the reason consumers in China go to McDonald’s is to eat McDonald’s specialties, not simply to eat local-like food."Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.
Mucus' original post stated that they Chinese households tend to shop at asian markets which are cheaper per item.
I have no opinion on the matter, I was simply answering to what he said:
"Asians are either buying a greater variety of food (and exotic foods cost more)"Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.
Mucus' original post stated that they Chinese households tend to shop at asian markets which are cheaper per item.
I thought I said discount supermarkets, but I wrote a lot so anyways:
quote:South Asian and Chinese Canadians account for about one-third, or $5.7-billion, of grocery spending in Toronto and Vancouver, according to market researcher Solutions Research Group. They tend to shop at discount supermarkets. They spend up to 23 per cent more on groceries than others in Canada. Now Loblaw has taken a bigger bite of the market by acquiring T&T. "Good move for Loblaw - it will pay off in the long run," said Kaan Yigit, president of Solutions.
No Frills is a discount Western supermarket. I'm fairly certain that Chinese Canadian consumers are simply buying local foods from No Frills and using T&T as a supplement to import their own foods. Hence, more variety.
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: ... consumer taste tests have revealed that the reason consumers in China go to McDonald’s is to eat McDonald’s specialties, not simply to eat local-like food."
Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes
Look, I've already said that MacDonald's and the like have started adapting, I even gave examples of foods. But that is nowhere in the neighborhood of chicken balls, chop suey, and fortune cookies.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes
Look, I've already said that MacDonald's and the like have started adapting, I even gave examples of foods. But that is nowhere in the neighborhood of chicken balls, chop suey, and fortune cookies.
I have no idea what you mean with "Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes". Can you be more specific?
Anyway, you used MacDonald's and other fast food joints as examples of Asians eating Western food, yet claimed that Asian restaurants in the West can't work as examples of Westerners eating Asian food.
Do you now admit that your argument was incorrect?
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I don't know a single mormon who interprets the Word of Wisdom so strictly that they won't eat food flavored with vanilla extract or use extracts and flavorings that contain alcohol. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but they are certainly extremely unusual.
Rabbit, you obviously would have far more experience with the subject than I would! But I'm fairly certain that there have been Mormon Hatrack members (maybe no current ones?) who mentioned avoiding extracts for this reason. And I found several discussion forums where no-longer-Mormons have complained about their Mormon relatives who won't eat their baked goods for this reason. (I'd link, but that's the sort of place we've been asked not to link to.)
So I have no idea how common it is, but I thought I was safer saying it varied.
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quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: I have no idea what you mean with "Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes". Can you be more specific?
It is a critical point in my argument that Asian people are going to Western restaurants like MacDonald's to get Western food. The fact that MacDonald's own marketing survey backs this up is just fortuitous. On the other hand, Jennifer 8 Lee's video (and myself) have strongly noted that the reverse is not nearly as true. Americans prefer to go to American-Chinese restaurants to eat foods that bear no similarity to their Chinese counterparts. The video demonstrates this by taking fortune cookies and General Tso's chicken back to China and asking locals what they are. They are understandably baffled.
quote: Anyway, you used MacDonald's and other fast food joints as examples of Asians eating Western food, yet claimed that Asian restaurants in the West can't work as examples of Westerners eating Asian food.
Do you now admit that your argument was incorrect?
That is neither my argument nor one that I have accepted from someone else. In short, strawman.
Of course Asian restaurants in the West work as examples. There's just not a lot of them outside of the areas of high Asian immigration and there aren't that many Westerners eating at them.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: It is a critical point in my argument that Asian people are going to Western restaurants like MacDonald's to get Western food. The fact that MacDonald's own marketing survey backs this up is just fortuitous. On the other hand, Jennifer 8 Lee's video (and myself) have strongly noted that the reverse is not nearly as true. Americans prefer to go to American-Chinese restaurants to eat foods that bear no similarity to their Chinese counterparts. The video demonstrates this by taking fortune cookies and General Tso's chicken back to China and asking locals what they are. They are understandably baffled.
Give me a break here. Nearly all the Asian food in Asian restaurants in the Western world is Asian.
Unless you can provide exact statistics of this not being the case, you have no standing here. Fortune cookies or General Tso's chicken are not enough, sorry. They don't make the great majority of the food Westerners eat in Oriental restaurants. No, the Jennifer 8 video isn't enough, as it only seemed to provide random examples, not actual, proven statistics.
And yes, the link I posted says that Chinese go to MacDonald's to "western" food. Just like Westerners go to Oriental restaurant because they want to eat Oriental food. Why would you otherwise go to an Oriental restaurant? People pick a certain kind of restaurant because they want to eat certain kind of food. You don't go to an Italian restaurant, because you really want to eat Chinese food.
The link posted also shows that the MacDonald's food in China and other Asian countries is decidedly different than in the West. Earlier on you claimed it's almost the same, and more authentic than the Asian food in the west. Clearly this is not the case. This has been proven now, by MacDonald's itself.
To claim that "Americans prefer to go to American-Chinese restaurants to eat foods that bear no similarity to their Chinese counterparts." sounds very silly, and unless you can provide statistics to back up your claim, you have no standing in here, either. Statistics?
I can say with absolute certainty that while people I know go to Asian restaurants a LOT, they don't go there so that they can eat fortune cookies. Something like Chicken With Red/Green Curry And Rice is a much more obvious and popular choice. I'm betting it's a popular choice in North-America as well.
And I might note that "Americans" make only a portion of the Western world, and their behavior in American-Chinese restaurants in no way is representative of the behavior of the average member of Western culture in an average Oriental restaurant (which might or might not be Chinese).
I assume you have experience of other western countries besides USA and Canada, correct? Because if you don't, I fail to see how you could claim anything about the Western culture in general, unless you can provide statistics.
quote:That is neither my argument nor one that I have accepted from someone else. In short, strawman.
Really? Here is a quote from you:
quote: "I think you've got this exactly backwards. Asian restaurants in the West are very often founded by Chinese immigrant families, true. But watch the Jennifer 8 Lee video from TED linked earlier. You'll find that what they cook has very little similarity to what is eaten in China. What Americans call "Chinese food", note the glaring error with the fortune cookie above by Adenum, is more often than not really just "American" food. Very few Americans actually eat real Chinese food.
This is actually crucial to explain the whole success of "Chinese" food in the West. Each Western country has an adapted "Chinese" food that is really just an adaptation of local cuisine. Jennifer Lee uses the line that "[this] Chinese food is more American than apple pie." Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it per say. The success of this is a great testament to the adaptiveness and inventiveness of Chinese immigrants, but they rarely actually eat this stuff.
On the other hand, although I've explained a few examples of Western food adapting in China, on the whole they don't (and the few that do, the cha chaan teng's for example are fading out). You can go to even an obscure Chinese city in the Chinese rust belt and it will still have an authentic MacDonalds and KFC serving almost exactly the same food they do in the US. The Daily Show notes this to great effect on their Olympics special.
So on one hand, even the most remote peasant in China will know about American cuisine and will have tried an authentic piece of it, even if just once. On the other hand, as was noted above you can have places like Fort Worth(?) as above where you probably can't get authentic Chinese food even if you tried.
There is simply a large informational disparity here.
If in here you were not trying to give an example that Western food in Asian countries is authentic, but Asian food in Western countries is not, then I have no idea what you were trying to say. I literally can't figure it out.
quote: Of course Asian restaurants in the West work as examples. There's just not a lot of them outside of the areas of high Asian immigration and there aren't that many Westerners eating at them.
Well my home city has only a very small Asian population, but a lot of Asian restaurants, and the customers are roughly 95% Finnish. When I've been to London, I would say that roughly 70-80% of customers in Asian restaurants are caucasian - This despite massive Asian immigrant population.
In Finland nowadays pretty much every town has Asian restaurants. Yet the Asian immigrant population is extremely small. But cuisine business is, if not the #1 choice for Asian immigrants here, it's certainly among their most preferred fields of work.
So that's my own personal experience. You have stated yours. Now what I really want to see is statistics. Don't you really see any Oriental restaurants in USA or Canada outside areas of high Asian immigration? Are there really only very few caucasians in these restaurants. I expect that other members of the forum, who live in North-American, can answer this.
Who knows, maybe the whole love for Asian food is restricted to only certain Western countries. But the argument has been about Westerners, not about Americans, or Canadians for that matter.
But let's go back to Asia:
You are claiming that Asians are more cosmopolitan in their cuisine culture, because they visit Western fast food joints - At least once in their life.
But there is a different angle to interpret the situation: American fast food joints do well in Asia because they are aggressively marketed, and have enormous resources to establish their presence.
In my knowledge so far there haven't been any Asian fast food joints that would have tried a similar muscular approach in the western world.
So in essence:
The popularity of Western fast food brands like MacDonald's in Asia, as opposed to popularity of Asian fast food brands in Western world, doesn't prove that Asians are more varied and cosmopolitan in their food preferences. It only proves that brands like MacDonald's have more resources, more effective marketing, and more agressive expansion strategies than their Asian counterparts.
That's the most simple, and most obvious answer to the phenomenon.
If we will see Asian brands trying to conquer Western market with the same aggression that MacDonald's is conquering Asia, and these Asian brands fail in their expansion... Then we might be able to say that Asians are more "cosmopolitan" in their food taste.
But before these kind of large-scale attempts to conquer western food market happen, we have no comparison to make. And if you can't make a comparison, then, well, it's pointless to make one.
And on a final note, I find it somewhat absurd that your criteria for how "cosmopolitan" someone's culinary taste is, is based on their willingness to eat fast food like hamburgers.
quote: The popularity of Western fast food brands like MacDonald's in Asia, as opposed to popularity of Asian fast food brands in Western world, doesn't prove that Asians are are more varied and cosmopolitan in their food preferences. It only proves that brands like MacDonald's have more resources, more effective marketing, and more agressive expansion strategies than their Asian counterparts.
That's the most simple, and most obvious answer to the phenomenon.
Well, it's not if you're a cultural supremacist like Mucus is. Because for people like that, it's enough to provide statistics and anecdotes that simply could be used as evidence of the premise, and then assume that they really are evidence of the premise. Once you've done that, you just meekly say "but I showed you that stats!" I think he should be able to understand why those stats don't say what he wants them to be saying. That said, thank you for having more patience in explaining this- I've never had the patience necessary to deal with people like him.
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In all fairness, Orincoro, you are also a cultural supremacist. In fact, I'd say you've been considerably worse about it than Mucus has. So why not chill a bit?
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: In all fairness, Orincoro, you are also a cultural supremacist. In fact, I'd say you've been considerably worse about it than Mucus has. So why not chill a bit?
I'm really not. I'm a classicist, yes, but lately I think of that as a private preference more than a steadfast belief. My opinions used to be quite different, but you don't see me posting about them much anymore, because I'm much more of the mind now that I'm a product of my background, and not a recipient of universal truth. You, on the other hand, have gone out of your way recently to cast aspersion on me at every opportunity, and I don't really thinks it's fair in this case- it's certainly not apros pos to this discussion. So why not lay off a bit?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Rabbit, you obviously would have far more experience with the subject than I would! But I'm fairly certain that there have been Mormon Hatrack members (maybe no current ones?) who mentioned avoiding extracts for this reason. And I found several discussion forums where no-longer-Mormons have complained about their Mormon relatives who won't eat their baked goods for this reason. (I'd link, but that's the sort of place we've been asked not to link to.)
So I have no idea how common it is, but I thought I was safer saying it varied.
I personally don't know anybody who avoids extracts because of the alcohol, but the idea doesn't surprise me. I've known Mormons who don't eat white bread and refined sugar, which seems a lot stranger to me.
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I too have never met Mormons who don't cook with extracts containing alcohol. But like Jon Boy, I do know that in the past quite a few believed the Word of Wisdom also involved refined sugar and white breads. It wouldn't surprise me if those sorts of people exist today, or if there are Mormons who think Vanilla extract is unfit for any sort of food related use.
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What these Mormons don't realize is that all John Smith was saying about "No Hot Drinks," was that he was tired of being served lukewarm sodas out of the pantry. I mean, these people did migrate to Utah. It's hot there. A prohibition was better than a commandment like: "thou shalt chill thy beverages to a pleasant degree."
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: What these Mormons don't realize is that all John Smith was saying about "No Hot Drinks," was that he was tired of being served lukewarm sodas out of the pantry. I mean, these people did migrate to Utah. It's hot there. A prohibition was better than a commandment like: "thou shalt chill thy beverages to a pleasant degree."
It's Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith died before the move to Utah.
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I always thought the word of wisdom came up because Emma Smith was mad about the men spitting tobacco all over her house. That and drunk Mormons is the streets. Though I have heard that the heavy focus on the word of wisdom was because we got rid of polygamy (kinda a crazy argument, but I guess with only one wife, it is easier to not drink). While the w of w had been around for awhile, supposedly no one cared about it until after polygamy was banned (I don't know enough history to refute or confirm that claim).
As far as vanilla, while I don't personally know anyone, I am almost positive I have read posts on the internet about people refusing vanilla. I don't have a link though- but I remember thinking wow, folks sure are crazy.
ETA- BB- Missouri is awfully hot as well. A chilled drink down there would be nice.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: What these Mormons don't realize is that all John Smith was saying about "No Hot Drinks," was that he was tired of being served lukewarm sodas out of the pantry. I mean, these people did migrate to Utah. It's hot there. A prohibition was better than a commandment like: "thou shalt chill thy beverages to a pleasant degree."
It's Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith died before the move to Utah.
PSH. I think I know *a little* more about your religion than you do. Next you're going to tell me that the first Dali Lama didn't invent the art of the ninja, and that Jesus didn't speak English. You're preposterous, sir. Preposterous.
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quote:The second also reports that Asians are among the most likely to eat food from a different country when they go out whereas Europeans are the least likely. Combined with a higher rate of going-out in the first place, the conclusion seems to be pretty obvious. There are a lot of Asians eating food from a different country and more of it.
No it doesn't. The study found the following
quote:Chinese and Italian food—perennial international favourites—are close runners up to local cuisine, with 26% and 17% of the global respondents choosing them as their second favourite choice. Ironically, while 34% of Chinese respondents prefer their local cuisine as their first choice for dining out, 56% say that Chinese cuisine is their second most favourite. And Australians and Singaporeans prefer Chinese food even over their local fare. In Hong Kong, consumers’ first preference is for Japanese cuisine (42%), and in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the preferred cuisine is Indian (34%). The preferences in Singapore and UAE are likely driven by ethnicity, as Singapore’s population is 75% Chinese and UAE is nearly 50% South Asian. The most patriotic restaurant-goers are the Italians, with 91% saying they prefer their local cuisine, followed by consumers in Turkey (82%) and India (81%).
From this report, we can conclude that Chinese are more likely to prefer non-local cuisine when they dine out than Italians but less likely than Australians. There is no data that suggest the Asians as a whole are more likely than westerners as a whole to have more cosmopolitan tastes. You are drawing far more sweeping conclusions from these reports than are justified which was my point from the beginning.
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As an aside on this study, I find it curious that the study found that dinner (the evening meal) is the most common time for people to eat out. In my experience, the midday meal is the meal people are least likely to eat at home. And while it is common for Americans to pack a lunch, its also extremely common for them to buy lunch at a fast food place or company/school cafeteria.
Studies have reported that every day 25% of Americans eat fast food. That just isn't consistent with survey results that say the average American eats out less than once a week. I think the problem is that most Americans don't consider grabbing a burger at McDonald's, having lunch at the Cafeteria or ordering a Pizza to be 'eating out'. I suspect that when most Americans think of 'eating out', they think of going to a restaurant, sitting and being served, and that is something they are most likely to do for an evening meal. I suspect that the average American, if asked in a survey how often they ate out, would not think to include everytime they got fast food, cafeteria food or take out. I don't know how this would skew the results of this study, but it very well may.
The way you ask a question can dramatically skew results and this is a very tricky issue when doing a trans_cultural survey.
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I'm also familiar with studies done by some of Americas major processed food producers where they placed Cameras in peoples homes (with their permission of course) and observed what and how they actually ate. What they've found is that Americans lie about their eating habits. They are far less likely to have a home cooked family meal than they report. Far more likely to eat fast food, take out, or preprepared microwave meals and less likely to actually sit down as a family than they report. It's hard to say to what extent Americans have deceived themselves into thinking they have good eating habits and to what extent they consciously lie about it, but either way surveying Americans about their eating habits gives highly inaccurate results.
[ July 27, 2009, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: It's hard to say to what extent Americans have deceived themselves into thinking they have good eating habits and to what extent they consciously lie about it, but either way surveying Americans about their eating habits gives highly inaccurate results.
(total aside, but hey)
Oh god, sitting down with my family every night for dinner represented the most excruciatingly awful moments of my youth. It wouldn't have been as bad if it were just one or two of us, but four adolescents being forced to sit down together at least 4 times a week, especially when they don't really like each other all that much to begin with, is hell. It's weird, but I think that's one of the main reasons I hate eating with other people as an adult- my parents were absolutely convinced that they were doing the right thing by "all sitting down together," but it became such a negative experience, really beyond their ability to correct or manage, that I really think it did more harm than good. Certainly it did nothing to bring us closer as a family. Maybe that's an uncommonly bad result, or maybe I'm misjudging the actual effect, but I wish my parents had been able to adapt as their children got older. It can't be good to be forced to eat in a state of unadulterated rage- and when you're 15 it's either rage or misery most of the time.
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"Good" eating habits may be a relative concept. Someone might think they are eating well by eating at home but this ignores they type of food they eat at home. Chicken fried steak with lots of gravy and mashed potatoes loaded with butter? Sure, on the plate it seems better than a burger and fries, but in reality maybe worse. Fast food carries a stigma thanks to the media. When I'm in a hurry and grab McD's, I feel always feel a twinge of guilt thanks to the indoctrination but I know my wife's lasagna with butter soaked French bread and Caesar salad probably adds up to more fat and calories. The focus isn't on eating well at home, it's about putting down the fast food industry and big corporate food manufacturers. Good reason to establish a fat tax. It's easier to tax Kraft and McDonalds than your grandmother's kitchen.
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'Good' eating habits are definitely a relative concept but the fact that people commonly lie about their eating habits is not.
While I suppose Americans may have many motives for lying about their eating habits, it certainly suggests that many Americans feel somewhat guilty about the way the actually eat.
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I only feel guilty when I go to McDonald's, but in reality what my wife cooks may be just as bad. The guilty feeling comes from what we read, see and hear from the educational institutions, govt and media. In reality a burger and fries made at home are probably worse than McDonald's but I don't feel guilty in the least for having greasy home fries and a backyard grilled burger that is three times the thickness of a drive through joint. Why?
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Orincoro, My experience with family meals is quite different. When I was growing up my mother served a family meal 7 days a week and it was exceptional if anyone was missing, in fact we frequently had friends as well as family. I have only positive memories of family meals, even during the years when we had 4 or more adolescents around the table. I can't say the same is true of all the family activities my parents forced us to participate in, but family meals in our house were good thing.
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When I grew up we had a garden and canning sessions every season. My brothers and I would go catch fish or slaughter a chicken for mom. My father and uncles would load our chest freezer with elk and deer meat. In reality, we ate about as healthy as anyone could, but I felt somewhat embarrassed by it. Rich kids ate beef and store bought veggies. The commercials told me I should eat fruit loops while I ate eggs collected from the chicken coup the day before. Perception and reality are impacted by what society tells us. Mothers use to churn butter and ice cream at home. Now the bad corporations make butter and ice cream for us. We can pass the blame of our bad health on to the corporations that produce our food. My backyard burger is much worse than McDonald's and my wife's sweet tea is just as bad as any soft drink but the government can tax the fast food or soda industry and the justification will be perceived valid.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... It's hard to say to what extent Americans have deceived themselves into thinking they have good eating habits and to what extent they consciously lie about it, but either way surveying Americans about their eating habits gives highly inaccurate results.
I think thats an interesting idea. Certainly, I have issues with the numbers. Clearly, their definition of "Chinese food" as reported by the consumer differs from my definition of "Chinese food" as reported by the chef.
I'm just not sure how your idea would affect the statistics on dining out. I mean, why would Americans be more inclined to lie than citizens in other places of the world*?
* (as opposed to a much more uniform level of lying, pushing down all dining-out statistics)
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: From this report, we can conclude that Chinese are more likely to prefer non-local cuisine when they dine out than Italians but less likely than Australians. There is no data that suggest the Asians as a whole are more likely than westerners as a whole to have more cosmopolitan tastes.
I think you're glossing over a few things. First, Italian food and Chinese food are clearly the best in terms of popularity if you examine the global averages chart. The others don't really come close, especially on second preference.
Now, despite this Chinese consumers display a very out-sized taste in international food while the converse is displayed in Italy. Also note Hong Kong which is polled separately and is highlighted as preferring Japanese food as a first preference.
Now, I agree that the lack of data for other countries is disappointing and is more conclusive for diners in Hong Kong and China.
However, a lack of data which doesn't really bolster either of our cases and I still think there is something highly suggestive about a 57% point difference in preferences for local cuisine between China and Italy. There is clearly a different reaction to having one of the world's "best" foods.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: You know mal, I grow less and less inclined to believe anything you say about yourself.
I don't blame you...I've had a very interesting life. I lived in Eastern Washington as a child. The Cascade range separated what the Seattle people called...509ers. 509 being the area code on the redneck part of the state. If you lived there now, you definitely wouldn't believe me, its changed that much. Now it's like Northern California. The Wenatchee valley of WA state. Back then it was free. Now, you can't fish but a couple months a year and only with barbless hooks and no live bait. We use to hike into the mountains to lakes that are now protected and inaccessible. Apple growers who can't compete with Chinese apples are subject to "Growth Management" laws and cannot develop their land. It can remain a picturesque orchard for the now wealthy residents or be turned over to the state for national park protection.
I don't blame you for doubting me. Where I use to live, killing chickens and fishing is a place of summer homes for wealthy Californian immagrants who now outnumber the natives. The laws that have been passed and property taxes that have gone up have driven out most the original families.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: You know mal, I grow less and less inclined to believe anything you say about yourself.
I don't blame you...I've had a very interesting life. I lived in Eastern Washington as a child. The Cascade range separated what the Seattle people called...509ers. 509 being the area code on the redneck part of the state. If you lived there now, you definitely wouldn't believe me, its changed that much. Now it's like Northern California. The Wenatchee valley of WA state, back then it was free. Now, you can't fish but a couple months a year and only with barbless hooks and no live bait. We use to hike into the mountains to lakes that are now protected and inaccessible. Apple growers who can't compete with Chinese apples are subject to "Growth Management" laws and cannot develop their land. It can remain a picturesque orchard for the now wealthy residents or be turned over to the state for national park protection.
I don't blame you for doubting me. Where I use to live while killing chickens and fishing, is now a place of summer homes for wealthy Californian immagrants who now outnumber the natives. The laws that have been passed and property taxes that have gone up have driven out most the original families. Funny thing is...now that the rich, elite environmentalists have flooded in, it is like any other place of sprawl. Strange that the people looking out for the environment need more than one house in more than one state. They must really care about the environment for passing their laws to prevent urban sprawl and the destruction of the scenery.
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quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: Give me a break here. Nearly all the Asian food in Asian restaurants in the Western world is Asian. ... I can say with absolute certainty that while people I know go to Asian restaurants a LOT, they don't go there so that they can eat fortune cookies. Something like Chicken With Red/Green Curry And Rice is a much more obvious and popular choice. I'm betting it's a popular choice in North-America as well.
Ummm, no. This is emphatically not the case. In fact, one could say thats the entire point of the book. Indeed, I would bet that any number of much more famous dishes like the two above and sesame chicken, chop suey, chicken balls, egg rolls, etc. would be a much more obvious choice. I daresay any of them have embedded themselves to such an extent in the North American culture that I would be highly surprised if people were secretly eating "Chicken With Red/Green Curry And Rice" while being misinformed about the former.
quote: And yes, the link I posted says that Chinese go to MacDonald's to "western" food. Just like Westerners go to Oriental restaurant because they want to eat Oriental food. Why would you otherwise go to an Oriental restaurant? People pick a certain kind of restaurant because they want to eat certain kind of food. You don't go to an Italian restaurant, because you really want to eat Chinese food.
Ummmm, no. The MacDonald's market research clearly illustrates the alternative. They call it "local-like" foods and they are in fact surprised that this is not what the Chinese market wants. If you read the full article, it actually says MacDonald's tried to go local too fast and there was a big drop in sales. I'd argue that the majority of Asian food in Asian restaurants in the Western world is merely "local-like" food.
quote: The link posted also shows that the MacDonald's food in China and other Asian countries is decidedly different than in the West. Earlier on you claimed it's almost the same, and more authentic than the Asian food in the west. Clearly this is not the case. This has been proven now, by MacDonald's itself.
I don't think so. MacDonald's clearly being pushed by demand into offering more authentic American food than Asian food does in the West.
quote: And I might note that "Americans" make only a portion of the Western world, and their behavior in American-Chinese restaurants in no way is representative of the behavior of the average member of Western culture in an average Oriental restaurant (which might or might not be Chinese).
I assume you have experience of other western countries besides USA and Canada, correct? Because if you don't, I fail to see how you could claim anything about the Western culture in general, unless you can provide statistics.
Sigh. Thats actually another chapter of the book. She does a survey of Chinese foods across the world, including Europe. That would be chapter 14 according to the website and there are taped interviews with people in Europe who without exception always name some odd adaptation of local food as "Chinese food."
These experiences match every book on the Chinese immigration experience that I've read. Namely, the odd quality of "Chinese food" that they encounter.
She did not provide statistics, but I don't see why I'm being hounded for them by you despite that fact that you've provided exactly none.
quote:If in here you were not trying to give an example that Western food in Asian countries is authentic, but Asian food in Western countries is not, then I have no idea what you were trying to say. I literally can't figure it out.
This may indeed be the crux of the problem. I'm just not sure where to start. Which step can't you figure out?
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Fortune cookies in China are called American Cookies. We haven't been exposed to real Chinese food in America, at least not much. Comparing real Chinese food to an American Chinese joint is like comparing real Mexican food to Taco Bell. Pizza is not Italian either, not in the form we would recognize. It's Chinese, Mexican and Italian style American food.
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quote:I'm just not sure how your idea would affect the statistics on dining out. I mean, why would Americans be more inclined to lie than citizens in other places of the world*?
* (as opposed to a much more uniform level of lying, pushing down all dining-out statistics)
It isn't simply lying, its a question of how people perceive the questions as well as cultural differences in what is considered a desirable eating habit. I don't know how this would influence the average Asian. Americans and Europeans clearly don't count grabbing something from a fast food establishment or eating in the cafeteria as 'eating out'. At least if they do there are some serious inconsistencies between this study and other studies. But maybe Chinese do think that buying noodles at a corner stand or buns from a street vendor is 'eating out'. A simple cultural difference like this could wildly skew the stats. Furthermore, maybe in a rapidly developing country like china, eating out more frequently is prestigious and a sign of affluence, which would make people more likely to exaggerate how frequently they eat out. Where as Americans and Europeans might be more prone to thinking of a home cooked meal as superior to an inexpensive restaurant and therefore be more prone to exaggerate how often they cook at home. I don't know if any of these supposition are accurate, but it is not difficult to postulate numerous ways in which cultural differences could skew such a survey.
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quote:Maybe that's an uncommonly bad result, or maybe I'm misjudging the actual effect, but I wish my parents had been able to adapt as their children got older.
Well, I certainly wasn't having my family meals while contorted into a shiny ball of rage. Maybe it's because I knew how to sit next to my family without hating them.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: [QUOTE] Furthermore, maybe in a rapidly developing country like china, eating out more frequently is prestigious and a sign of affluence, which would make people more likely to exaggerate how frequently they eat out.
I think you are on to something here Rabbit. Signs of affluence are the determining factor. Now eating out is associated with obesity which is considered unattractive. In the past, leanness was associated with the peasant and chunkiness with the wealthy. Venus on the Half Shell was chunky to say the least. For most of human history, the thicker the woman the more attractive since only the rich and powerful could afford extra weight. Our supermodels would be viewed as peasants four hundred years ago. Unlike today, the majority were poor and skinny while ruled over by well fed nobles.
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I'd also like to add that I object to calling McDonalds and KFC authentic American cuisine, though I don't know what else you would call them. They certainly aren't like anything my mother or my friends mothers, or me or my friends ever cook in our homes. Its not even particularly similar to food that you would find in any sit down restaurant in America.
I have absolutely no clear idea what the average American means when they say they prefer local cuisine. American cuisine is very diverse and changing rapidly. It reflects the immigrant nature of our country and pop culture. Local cuisine in New Orleans is very different from local cuisine in New York or Santa Fe.
As for the authenticity of Chinese and other Asian restaurants in the US, its all over the map. I've been to Chinese restaurants that serve only dishes like general tsao's chicken and Egg Foo Young, but I've also been to restaurants where you can get bitter melon, chicken's feet and pork liver, definitely not dishes that cater to the Western taste. My sense is that over the past 20 to 30 years, there has been a general shift away from Amer/Asian dishes and toward more authentic Asian cooking but I have no data to back that up beyond my own experience.
Beyond that, I'm not sure why the question is relevant. Ethnic restaurants in the US and Europe may not be authentic, but they certainly are diverse. Italian food in Seattle may not be exactly like Italian food in Florence, but it certainly is very different from the Chinese, French, Thai, Indian, Turkish, Mexican or Moroccan restaurants you are likely to find in the same neighborhood. Authenticity is not the same as diversity and diversity is a much better indication of cosmopolitan tastes.
Furthermore, the western desserts and pastries you find popping up all over Japan and Hong Kong are for the most part fairly poor mimics of their European counterparts as well. You do occasionally run across an exception, but for the most part they aren't really representative of the best European desserts anymore than the average Chinese restaurant in the west is representative of the best Chinese cooking.
Its also worth noting that the best Asian desserts I've had come from parts of South East Asia like Vietnam and Thailand that had centuries of European colonial influence. China and Japan, where European influence was much more limited, really have inferior desserts even by Asian standards.
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quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: ... But there is a different angle to interpret the situation: American fast food joints do well in Asia because they are aggressively marketed, and have enormous resources to establish their presence.
This is an interesting idea and I think it is worth exploring.
Now, obviously I'm not taste is mostly based upon some unchangeable attribute, say genetics (although I would note that lactose intolerance helps explain the lack of dairy foods among Southern Chinese) but that it is mostly based on culture. Obviously culture is changeable, China would have been one of the least cosmopolitan say, a little over 50 years ago.
Certainly, you would not wish to sell beef in India or alcohol/tea in Utah or pork in a Jewish enclave.
So taste is cultural and changeable. And if it is in fact the case that the success of MacDonald's is due to their success in using advertising to change Chinese tastes*, and that Chinese restaurants in the US have failed to change American tastes then I see no problem with this as an explanation for how we have got to this point.
* (Although I would argue that there are more historical and cultural reasons that explain the growth of American companies in China as opposed to marketing)
But this seems to me to be a separate discussion on how to affect and change cultural taste rather than what the current cultural taste is.
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If we are going to focus on current cultural tastes, we should avoid American tastes. Tastes in America have become noticeably spicier in proportion to the increase in Mexican-American population. Jalapeno potato chips, hot this or salsa that. American tastes continually shift for the population at hand, a melting pot of flavors for better or worse. Personally, I loved the duck in Singapore, steak in Australia and fish tacos in Southern Mexico. I can't imagine eating a tarantula, but if in a Brazilian rain forest with natives, I might just like them.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'd also like to add that I object to calling McDonalds and KFC authentic American cuisine, though I don't know what else you would call them. They certainly aren't like anything my mother or my friends mothers, or me or my friends ever cook in our homes. Its not even particularly similar to food that you would find in any sit down restaurant in America.
I'm going to have to think about this. I'm not really sure why you're splitting it up this way. To me, food is food.
MacDonald's and KFC are authentic American cuisine because they're basically the most popular cuisine for Americans to eat. They literally call the documentary, "Fast Food Nation."
Also, a Big Mac seems to basically be a standardized ... well, hamburger that one would get from a home BBQ.
I dunno, I'll have to think about this. But for now I'll leave you with a Russel Peters video that touches on the subject of how to become a Canadian (in terms of food).
quote: Chinese restaurants in the US have failed to change American tastes then I see no problem with this as an explanation for how we have got to this point.
I think its ridiculous to claim that Chinese restaurant haven't changed American tastes. American Chinese food doesn't taste like other forms of American food. It may not be authentic Chinese, but it certainly tastes more like authentic Chinese food (which btw I have eaten) and American home cooking (or McDonalds) And while Chinese restaurants may not have been able to convince the average American to try pork liver or chicken's feet, it's silly to argue that they haven't changed American taste. I suspect that rootbeer hasn't caught on in China either.
First, its worth noting that you are greatly exaggerating the success of McDonald's in China. According to China Daily, there were 960 McDonald's in China in 2008. That's less than one McDonald's for every million Chinese persons. At that ratio, its extremely unlikely that every Chinese person has tasted a McDonald's burger.
Second, I have little idea what the draw is of McDonald's in China. I do know that in Europe, McDonalds tends to attract expats looking for familiar food and service in English and people in their teens and early twenties who think its cool to eat at an American establishment. They've also been very successful at attracting the convenience eater by having very quick turn around and the commuter segment of the population by locating restaurants with easy access to highways. It has everything to do with image and convenience and almost nothing to do with taste. I have yet to meet a European who prefers the taste of McDonald's food to local cuisine.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'd also like to add that I object to calling McDonalds and KFC authentic American cuisine, though I don't know what else you would call them. They certainly aren't like anything my mother or my friends mothers, or me or my friends ever cook in our homes. Its not even particularly similar to food that you would find in any sit down restaurant in America.
I think that these things are associated with America by the rest of the world since they came from America but agree that they are not "American Cuisine" It takes time for the American label of the product to dissipate. IE, Levi jeans....American pants or Zippo lighters. Take it back further....cars, radios, light bulbs, airplanes, microwave ovens, television, etc. Many new things have been initially created in America and lose their authentic American television label as they spread throughout the world. McDonalds will lose it's American label in China just as every American understands the Chinese food in the food court is not really Chinese. The fact is America is the greatest not because Americans are better than the French and Chinese but because it's a place where the French and Chinese came together to combine ideas. No people are superior but when it comes to food, the best food will come from the people with the deepest spice rack.
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quote:MacDonald's and KFC are authentic American cuisine because they're basically the most popular cuisine for Americans to eat. They literally call the documentary, "Fast Food Nation."
Also, a Big Mac seems to basically be a standardized ... well, hamburger that one would get from a home BBQ.
I disagree on all counts. A Big Mac is less similar to a home cooked BBQ hamburger than the typical American Chinese restaurant food is to authentic Chinese cooking.
The fact that a documentary dubbed the US 'Fast Food Nation' does not prove McDonald's and KFC are the most popular type of food around. There are a lot of complex reasons for the success of fast food in America, it simply isn't fair to conclude that its what American's like best. I sincerely doubt that when the average American talks about local foods, they think McDonalds.
Fast food simply isn't the most popular cuisine in America no matter how you count it. Fast food isn't even a cuisine, its a style of eating. McDonald's and Taco Bell aren't the same cuisine. Even if 1 in 4 Americans eats fast food ever day, that still makes 11 out 12 meals something other than fast food.
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