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This may be the funniest thing I've ever seen you get angry about, Rabbit. I mean, seriously, take a step back for a second and look at this conversation. It's hilarious as all heck. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Please enjoy yourselves. I'm not actually angry at all. This argument is purely for sport. Any one interested in fighting about cheese?
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Please enjoy yourselves. I'm not actually angry at all. This argument is purely for sport. Any one interested in fighting about cheese?
All I'll say is, I've had Chinese food in many places in the US, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Mainland China, and Taiwan, but never Canada. Taiwan wins so far hands down.
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: You can only get the very best, freshest brie illegally (not that it is very hard to do so).
It tends to be remarkably easy here.
I have smuggled raw Camambert and Brie into the US on more than one occasion but only for personal consumption. I never actually tried to buy contraband cheese in the US.
How do you go about buying cheese on the black market? I'm imagining people watching the cheese counter until there is no one in hearing distance. Walking up to the clerk, leaning in a bit and whispering. "Lennie tells me you guys have some of the (insert code word for illegal cheese)." The clerk, after first looking over his shoulders in all directions to make sure no ones listening, leans over the counter and whispers back, look meet me out back by the dumpster in an hour and we can make a deal".
Or maybe its 2 AM at a wine and cheese tasting party, only the hard core are still around when one guy says softly "Hey, I got a great deal on some (insert code word for illegal cheese). I've got 5 kilos in the my car, who wants in? Then a few people are assigned to stand nonchalantly by the door watching for cops, while someone jury rigs a scale to divide up the goods and then conceals the contraband in Kraft wrappers just in case anyone is stopped by the cops on the way home.
[ September 30, 2009, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Please enjoy yourselves. I'm not actually angry at all. This argument is purely for sport. Any one interested in fighting about cheese?
All I'll say is, I've had Chinese food in many places in the US, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Mainland China, and Taiwan, but never Canada. Taiwan wins so far hands down.
The best chinese meal I ever had was prepared for me by a Taiwanese friend in Vienna. It was about 12 courses, every one of which had an elaborate explanation.
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In a lot of places you can just go into a cheese shop and ask for the stuff. That's a bit brusque, though. I think the accepted general approach is to start a conversation about fresh cheeses, then talk about how you've tried a lot of the easily available stuff, but you're looking for something more "special", and do they have anything they could recommend?
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quote:Originally posted by Teshi: It's probably just Canadia then.
Man, my frivolous comment is really much more dangerous than I thought it was going to be.
Teshi, you do know where the cheese markets are in Toronto, right? There's one called Global Cheese in Kensington, on Kensington Ave just south of Baldwin. They are AMAZING and have a LOT of different cheeses, and they won't let you buy anything until you've tasted it first (even if you've tasted another gouda, for example, they'll still make you taste theirs). They are awesome. There's also Cheese Magic, which is a few steps away on Baldwin, but I like them less. And if you go alllll the way up to Major Mackenzie and Yonge St in Richmond Hill, there's Grande Cheese Factory Outlet, which is a big warehouse full of cheese and pasta.
You CAN find Wensleydale - I have. Go check it out, especially Global Cheese, but bring cash because that's all they take. They've never let me down when I'm looking for a specific cheese.
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Clearly this market for dangerous illegal cheese has gotten out of hand. We can't let these ruthless cheese dealers keep pushing this stuff. These cheeses are dangerous!!! Think of the children!!!
Its time for a serious crack down. We need to declare a "War on raw cheese". We need a "fromage force" in every police department. I want to see plane clothes "cheese agents" going into gourmet delis and striking up conversations with customers about "those fine french raw cheeses". I want to plant an agent in every English department to buddy up to cheese snobs and sniff out the Brie eaters. We need cheese sniffing dogs at all our border crossings. I want to see SWAT teams busting up wine and cheese tasting parties looking for contraband cheeses.
This lawlessness has gone on long enough!!
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I've had Real Yorkshire Wensleydale in England and it's an OK cheese, but I didn't find it all that distinctive. A bit of a disappointment really considering all the hype I heard. Maybe a mature Wensleydale would be more to my liking.
I know that you can find a good variety of cheeses in the US but I've spent too much time in Europe to think there is even a comparison. In North America, good cheeses are over priced and you have to hunt to find them.
Where I work when I'm in Germany, there is a farmers market twice a week with around two dozen cheese vendors, each of whom has an assortment of cheese superior to your typical gourmet cheese shop in North America. Cycling across France I can't tell you how many times we've rolled into some town barely big enough to support a supermarket, and found the supermarket stocked with a mind boggling variety of regional specialty cheeses along side reasonably priced cheese from every corner of Europe.
If you search hard enough you can find very good cheeses in the states. The variety of cheeses available in your typical US supermarket has come along way since my child hood when cheddar, velveta and american processed cheese slices were all that was commonly available and even swiss, monterey jack and mozzarella were considered a bit like specialty items.
But lets not pretend that the US is even in the same league with Europe when it comes to cheese. We just aren't.
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Oh, I'm not arguing that it's easier in North America (Canuck here ). I used to refer to the cheese wall at Marks & Spencer as The Magical Wall of Cheese. When people make jokes about British food, I always tell them about the magical things Europeans (Brits included) do to dairy products. (I never understood the fuss people made over butter till I had Normandy butter... *drool*)
But it's not impossible to find good cheese in Toronto, and since Teshi was lamenting not being able to find it, I figured I'd share where I knew it was available.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: All I'll say is, I've had Chinese food in many places in the US, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Mainland China, and Taiwan, but never Canada. Taiwan wins so far hands down.
This is actually related to my line of argument.
See, it would be a reasonable conversation if the proposition was that one of Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong had the best Chinese food. At least they have historical reasons to have the best Chinese food and the population to support it.
But the proposition that the US, a place which in total has less Chinese people in total than even a second-rate Chinese city has the best Chinese food (or variety) is just absurd. Even the restaurant owners and reviewers from NYC that I linked to earlier accept that American Chinese food is second-rate.
I'm only exploring the Canadian data to note that as much as the state of Canadian Chinese food sucks, it still clearly out-classes its American counter-part.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Saying something is "hypothetical" means it is purely made up or imagined. Hypothetical is the opposite of "factual", "concrete" and "real".
I tire of this. I'm not attached to the word. Come up with a word that is in the middle and describes a situation properly and I'll consider it in good faith. I tire of your playing with words when the meaning is clear.
How do detectives describe the phenomenon when witnesses to a crime relates the details in an inconsistent way with their minds filling in the gaps? That thing.
quote:... I can't see how you have any authority by which to make the claim that I am dead wrong about what was said by my colleague over lunch.
Does one have to personally witness global warming to know that it is happening?
quote:Get off your high horse.
You first. If you didn't notice, I was just mirroring your statement directly.
quote:I don't doubt that your Chinese friends and acquaintances get nostalgic about the food back home, that's pretty typical immigrant behavior.
That is inconsistent with the the experiences of second-generation relatives that have grown up elsewhere and reported on their experiences overseas or my own for that matter. Nostalgia is insufficient as an explanation.
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quote: tire of this. I'm not attached to the word. Come up with a word that is in the middle and describes a situation properly and I'll consider it in good faith. I tire of your playing with words when the meaning is clear.
I can't come up with a word for what you mean because I haven't a clue what you might mean by calling my story a "hypothetical situation". My best guess was that you were accusing me of making it up, but you say that wasn't your intent. I don't have a second guess. Its not my responsibility to clearly communicate your ideas.
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quote:But the proposition that the US, a place which in total has less Chinese people in total than even a second-rate Chinese city has the best Chinese food (or variety) is just absurd. Even the restaurant owners and reviewers from NYC that I linked to earlier accept that American Chinese food is second-rate.
That was never my proposition. Yes, on average Chinese food available outside China is not authentic and often second-rate. My proposition was much narrower, that it is possible to get very authentic very good Chinese food in North America and that in some specific places that food may be even better than what you get in China.
I believe that proposition because I have been told that, not once by someone who visited China, but several times in several different setting by several friends and associates who are immigrants from various parts of China.
I get that you doubt the veracity of that claim. But aside from the fact that you haven't heard those comments from your own Chinese friends and associates, why is it so unfathomable to you that my Chinese friends might have said these things to me? Look specifically at what I've reported.
quote:1. The Chinese population in Manhattan includes people from every region of China.
Do you think that is an unreasonable assessment? If so, why?
quote:2. The Chinese population in Manhattan is more diverse than the chinese population you would typically find in a Chinese city.
I think that follows pretty logically from #1 but if you don't, please elaborate. I suspect that in places like Hong Kong and Taiwan you also find lots of immigrants from other regions and so those places are also more diverse than a typical Chinese city. But even in those places I would expect that local people are a dominant majority. Is that an unreasonable assumption? Do you have any data that would suggest that any Chinese city is as diverse as Chinese immigrant populations in North America?
quote:3. A more diverse population will typically lead to more diversity in the the types of foods and the kinds of restaurants available
This one also seem to follow rather logically to me and matches well with my experiences as a traveler. Do you have any exceptions to that claim?
Based on claims 1 - 3, I think it logically follows that:
quote:Chinese restaurants in Manhattan offer a wider variety of Chinese cuisines and regional specialties than one can find in most Chinese cities
Can you point to any flaws in my logic here?
Now consider the next claim implied by my friend in Toronto.
quote:A first rate chinese chief in Toronto has access to higher quality ingredients than what is generally available in China. So a first rate chief Chinese chief in Toronto will make be able to make better quality dishes than if he were in China
Now I can imagine several claims that might invalidate this.
1. There are no first rate Chinese chiefs in New York, not even one.
I'm willing to buy that there may not be enough good Chinese chiefs in the New York. I'm willing to buy that the average Chinese chief in New York is worse than the average chinese chief in Hong Kong. But no first rate Chinese chiefs in Manhattan. Not a single one? No, I find that unfathomable.
2. Ingredients commonly available in China are typically at least as high quality as those available in North America.
I guess its possible but it seems highly improbable. You are going to have to produce some pretty substantive data to support it if you try to make that claim.
3. Quality of the ingredients makes no difference in chinese dishes.
Once again, you are going to have to be awfully persuasive if you take that tack.
I've detailed exactly what my claims are, why I believe them and why I think the reports of my Chinese friends are reasonable. If you want me to take you seriously, pick apart my arguments. Show me where the flaws are. Go beyond the "it doesn't meet fit my world view" and actually tell me what's wrong with the reasoning.
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Close, but not quite what I'm going for. Digging around the wiki on eyewitness testimony, I'm thinking something like confabulation mixed with the miscommunication that I noted earlier.
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quote:I can't come up with a word for what you mean because I haven't a clue what you might mean by calling my story a "hypothetical situation". My best guess was that you were accusing me of making it up, but you say that wasn't your intent. I don't have a second guess. Its not my responsibility to clearly communicate your ideas.
Not that this is my fight, but I thought it was pretty clear what he meant given the original context. (Confabulation actually doesn't make sense in the original context but makes sense in his point a few posts later. Anecdotal sounds more correct but it wouldn't have quite been proper usage).
In the original statement ("Your hypothetical friends would disagree with my friends"), I think he's saying a) if your friends were to HYPOTHETICALLY meet with his friends, they'd disagree, combined with b) he can think of reasons why you may have misinterpreted what your friends meant. Given that anecdotal evidence isn't that useful to begin with, your conversation with your friends might as well be hypothetical from his perspective. (This is still not quite the right use of the word, but it's close enough and fairly obvious enough that I don't think it merited an attack on his english and a page of multiple 5-paragraph arguments focusing on the notion).
Is his statement technically wrong? Well yeah, but I know what it's like to reach for a word that means something specific and accidentally grab something that "feels" correct even if it's actually not. (i.e. when people say "I was literally going to kill myself if he did not stop singing," they actually mean "virtually" but everyone knows what they meant.
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The Rabbit, this confabulating has gone far enough. You don't have any Chinese friends. Mucus knows all of the Chinese people and all of them agree that we suck.
I don't know why you keep insisting on what is clearly a delusion. You must be mad. (You haven't been using any imported toothpaste, have you?)
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Also, while this whole thread is sufficiently bizarre that people can probably isolate the ridiculous context, this is precisely the kind of argument that I think makes the forum intimidating for newbies. What are they supposed to think when they see two people talking about food, and one person uses the wrong word and then gets totally chewed out for "failing to communicate properly?"
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Raymond, it isn't so much that he used the wrong word as that he is pretty much calling The Rabbit a liar.
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except that he specified that that's not what he meant, and while there may be history here I don't know about, looking at the last two pages by themselves I see Rabbit making one claim and Mucus making a counterstatement that Rabbit's claim isn't as meaningful as Rabbit thinks it is.
I don't know if Mucus is BSing the "chinese people will agree with you out of politeness" thing (whether true or not, it does seem like the sort of statement that allows for blanket "oh I know what I'm talking about and whatever you say must be wrong" kind of reasoning). That is the point with which Mucus could be calling Rabbit a liar, and if that's what we're worried about then that's what should be focused on, not a word used in an offhand remark.
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The claim that Mucus knows more about conversations for which he wasn't present among people he doesn't know than someone who was there is pretty insulting however you look at it. "Confabulation" means that she was making it up. I know that slamming western culture in general and Americans in particular is important to him but this is a bit silly.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Raymond, it isn't so much that he used the wrong word as that he is pretty much calling The Rabbit a liar.
Only if you completely ignore the very next post which starts with:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: ... I don't doubt that you had lunch with a Chinese colleague and I don't doubt that you "think" you got agreement with your points.
But I also know that you're dead wrong and the description of a Hong Kong native that would claim that the food in Toronto outranks that in Hong Kong itself is so foreign to my experiences, the best explanation is that your perception of events has totally separated from the reality of what happened.
I'm effectively stating that I believe that The Rabbit believes in good faith that he/she heard what was stated and simultaneously stating that I accept that he/she met with a Chinese colleague. Plus I'm providing an explanation that explains what happened without assuming that Rabbit is lying.
Personally, I was wondering how hostile The Rabbit was because, you know, we're resurrecting a two month old thread with a direct named challenge to me. This is something that I did not state because I don't know what is going on.
But I do know that your mind reading of my motives is simply wrong.
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If not lying than delusional. Or stupid. You and she have had different experiences with different people. With all the people in the world, it is entirely possible that both of you are right about your own experiences.
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Raymond Arnold: Your interpretation of my post is correct, although I do not know why confabulation does not make sense in the original context.
Otherwise, just some general clarifications.
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I don't know if Mucus is BSing the "chinese people will agree with you out of politeness" thing
I understand your doubt and I knew that point would be controversial so I provided an impartial link.
quote: That is the point with which Mucus could be calling Rabbit a liar ...
No, the point of the article is that Chinese people may use white lies out of politeness but that they do not consider it actual lying.
In other words, far from accusing The Rabbit of lying, I am hypothesizing that the Chinese colleague may have done what The Rabbit may consider a lie (but probably should not).
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: "Confabulation" means that she was making it up.
Yes, but the emphasis is on *unconsciously*. I picked the article that I linked to for a reason. It states that everyone may confabulate at times in order to make sense of the world.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: If not lying than delusional. Or stupid.
Ummm, no. The article states that perfectly healthy individuals may confabulate. It restates this twice.
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I greatly prefer American Chinese food to Chinese Chinese food. I'm a big fan of no heads or feet* in my food (with the exception of soul food). Vietnamese food on the other hand I enjoy a lot.
*distinguishable as heads and feet anyway. If you chop it up and don't call it heads and feet it's another story.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Why is it that you are more of an expert on The Rabbit's friends than she is?
Why do you think that it is necessary to be an expert on The Rabbit's friends in order to give only one example of a way in which The Rabbit may have miscommunicated with them?
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Mucus, have you considered that while your suggestion of The Rabbit's friend's intentions may not be considered presumptuous or otherwise offensive by Chinese standards, by typical American cultural standards it is? You are essentially claiming to be a better judge of the motives of her friend - whom you've never met - based on a broad cultural generalization. Do you not see how this can come off as being offensive?
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Why is it that you are more of an expert on The Rabbit's friends than she is?
Why do you think that it is necessary to be an expert on The Rabbit's friends in order to give only one example of a way in which The Rabbit may have miscommunicated with them?
And here again. You are presuming fault in her communication skills.
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quote:You are essentially claiming to be a better judge of the motives of her friend - whom you've never met - based on a broad cultural generalization. Do you not see how this can come off as being offensive?
Mucus never claims know what Rabbit's friends were thinking. He merely states a way in which Rabbit may have been misinterpreting them, and because his own experience deviates significantly from Rabbits, he finds it more likely that Rabbit miscommunicated with her friends than that he is wrong. For the most part, I honestly think he communicated that fairly politely, whether or not his opinion is rooted in cultural chauvinism.
I don't know who started the argument and where the burden of proof lies, but claiming that either side has any particular moral high ground at this point seems profoundly silly to me. I also think that, by American standards, "Rabbit might be misconstruing what his friends said" is far less offensive than "Mucus is lying and delusional and stupid." Although that line was said by a third party who you (Rollainm) have not specifically condoned.
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You are right, Raymond. I shouldn't have said "know". But even the suggestion can easily be take as offensive when it implies greater trust in a generalization than in The Rabbit's communication skills or honesty of her friend. Let me be clear, though, that I'm not trying to dogpile you here, Mucus. I do understand where you're coming from, your frustration with these responses, and why you've reacted the way you have.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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If Rabbit had been discussing something far more personal or important with her friends, I'd consider this insulting. Given that this should be a fairly low key discussion about which food is better, and that Mucus did provide a link to back up his argument, it seems to me that if Rabbit feels Mucus is being unfair, a proper response would be either "um, I think I know my friends just fine, thank you and have a nice day," or to go back to said friends, talk to them some more about this discussion and clarify that Mucus' generalization doesn't apply here.
But getting indignant and offended and launching into a full scale attack on Mucus seems way out of proportion to me.
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You know, my original contention was simply that I know Chinese people who don't agree with Mucus and I gave some examples to illustrate that.
I may being missing Mucus' point entirely but he seems to be saying that I'm either making up these stories, have seriously misunderstood the what my friends said or my Chinese friends are all liars. And since he knows nothing at all about the events in question except what I have said, I can't see why he would doubt their accuracy other than that he's found me to an insufferable liar in the past (which I don't think is the case) or that he finds it unimaginable that anyone Chinese would disagree with him on this issue.
And that is an extremely arrogant assumption, hence my telling him to get of his high horse. If he had claimed that my Chinese friends aren't representative of the majority of Chinese immigrants that would be one thing, and it might even be true, but insisting that my stories couldn't possibly be true is quite another.
But even this is a digression from my original point which I believe was
There isn't a single decent Chinese cheese.
[ October 01, 2009, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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And in response to your initial question, no, I did not consider it (and I personally have little reason to think that this is due to any cultural difference).
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Raymond, I haven't commented on the correctness of The Rabbit's response to Mucus, but I don't think it really has anything to do with my point anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... he seems to be saying that I'm either making up these stories, have seriously misunderstood the what my friends said or my Chinese friends are all liars.
Seriously, the way in which you're using the word "liar" actually makes me wonder more about whether a miscommunication occured, not less.
I will add two more quotes from that linked article (my italics)
quote:This makes her a fantastic “undercover foreigner” in the sense that she can hang out with Chinese people and they’ll treat her more or less as a cultural insider. She reports that the number one complaint her Mainland friends have against their foreign friends is that foreigners too often think Chinese people are lying to them, when they’re actually being extra considerate to the foreigners.
quote:Chinese typically express more of their meaning through nonverbal signals than Westerners do – especially Americans. We all make regular use of both verbal and nonverbal forms of communication, but comparatively, Americans are more “tuned in” to the words; Chinese are more tuned in to nonverbal channels.
A style of communication that especially emphasizes nonverbal signals makes it easy to clearly communicate a meaning that is different or opposite of the words’ literal meaning. To Americans, who focus relatively more on the literal meaning and fail to “hear” many of the nonverbal cues, this can easily look like lying.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... unimaginable that anyone Chinese would disagree with him on this issue.
Not unimaginable, merely the best explanation (i.e. the most probable) Remember, I said:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: ... the best explanation is that your perception of events has totally separated from the reality of what happened.
quote: There isn't a single decent Chinese cheese.
Of course not. We're like lactose intolerant (in general, not specific) and if you really think about it, milk in the way we consume it is pretty weird anyways.
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quote:If Rabbit had been discussing something far more personal or important with her friends, I'd consider this insulting. Given that this should be a fairly low key discussion about which food is better, and that Mucus did provide a link to back up his argument, it seems to me that if Rabbit feels Mucus is being unfair, a proper response would be either "um, I think I know my friends just fine, thank you and have a nice day," or to go back to said friends, talk to them some more about this discussion and clarify that Mucus' generalization doesn't apply here.
Be fair Raymond. Yes I responded by returning arrogance and thinly veiled insults with more arrogance and thinly veiled insults. The wasn't the most polite thing to do. But its also evident that many people have misunderstood my tone in this discussion. This whole discussion started off as mockery of the OP. The entire thread has been sort of a parody of more serious discussions. At least that's how I perceived it. I'm sorry if other people took it much more seriously than it was ever intended.
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I think Mucus has been entirely serious, and if your tone was meant to be comedic/parodic, it didn't come across that well, but was also mismatched against Mucus's efforts (as I perceive them).
(Not that I think Mucus thinks this is of vital importance, just that I think Mucus has approached this soberly.)
I don't think Mucus meant to insult your intelligence or doubt your honesty. Just to frame an interpretation of your experiences in a way that makes sense within the context of his own experience and study, which otherwise seems too dissonant.
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quote:The best brie is made from unpasteurized milk and is not legal to sell in the US.
I have seen raw milk cheese for sale out in the open in a grocery store. Probably about a month ago.
Which is more likely? 1) Some kinds of raw milk cheese are illegal to sell in the US but not others. 2) The store was selling contraband cheese out in the open. 3) The cheese was mislabeled. (edit:)4) It's not actually illegal to sell raw milk cheese in the US.
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*nod* I think Mucus was quite legitimately and sincerely offended by the assertion that Chinese food was both better and more diverse in Canada than in China, with little loss of "authenticity." He has been contesting that point since it was made.
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quote:Of course not. We're like lactose intolerant (in general, not specific) and if you really think about it, milk in the way we consume it is pretty weird anyways
Not an excuse. The lactose content of cheeses is typically very low. In fact, it has been postulated that lactose intolerance is why cheeses were developed in the first place. The process of making cheese separates the milk proteins (which nearly all adult humans can digest) from the lactose which many adult humans can not digest.
And drinking milk isn't objectively any weirder than an awfully lot of the things people eat. Fermented eggs? Rotten cabbage? Plants that are poisonous unless they are properly pre-processed? Poisonous insects? Honey? Tree sap? Tree bark? Live maggots?
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I more or less agree with scifibum. I realize this started out as a joke, but over time the humor became less apparent until it was pretty much indistinguishable from an actual debate. And because I didn't think Mucus had been particularly unfair to begin with, the irony of responding to a silly point with a huge analysis ("Sincerely, Summer Glau") lost its humor.
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scifibum, TomDavidson, Raymond Arnold Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Not an excuse. The lactose content of cheeses is typically very low. In fact, it has been postulated that lactose intolerance is why cheeses were developed in the first place.
I've heard a quite different theory. In short, herders and nomads (what would have been called at the time barbarians) did not have access to food as regularly as an agricultural society. Thus, they started to consume milk from their animals. This consumption lead to them to become mutants that could consume milk in adulthood. However, not having proper storage for that milk, they eventually let it spoil, leading to the development of cheese.
Thus, a non-mutant society which has largely skipped this nomadic phase (indeed, stigmatizing it) would not easily develop cheese.
quote: And drinking milk isn't objectively any weirder than an awfully lot of the things people eat. Fermented eggs? Rotten cabbage? Plants that are poisonous unless they are properly pre-processed? Poisonous insects? Honey? Tree sap? Tree bark? Live maggots?
Well, personally I consider those things pretty weird too. Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy some of them, but they are "weird" and non-obvious cultural developments which in part explains why different societies took them on at different rates.
However, I think there is a special place for milk (and by extension cheese), not on a binary classification of things that are weird or not weird, but on a (understandably debatable) floating point line of weirdness. The poisonous and spoiled foods are relatable in times of famine or lack of food, you gotta do what you gotta do. I have heard of peasants that during the Cultural Revolution were reduced to eating tree bark given the lack of real food.
Consider though, while it is reasonable for children to drink their mother's milk, we do not generally drink our mother's milk, nor other humans's milk which would reasonably be considered to be similar. Not even a monkey's milk.
No, we grab cows, goats, camels, and suck on them. But then get this, rather than drink it fresh, sometimes you spoil it on purpose. Oy.
(And don't get me wrong. I love cheese, especially on pasta, although I'm not picky about it)
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It actually seems to me that drinking milk from herd animals reflects a lack of hunger. You are getting a little bit of nutrition instead of killing and eating the whole animal. In famine, you kill the milk cow.
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Well, it is not quite a hunger issue and it wouldn't be a cow to start with. It would be a horse or a goat. And rather than let the milk go to waste, you're eating it.
But a big point of going to an agricultural way of life is to gain a much richer and more regular source of food and thats what the herders and hunters would need to compete with.
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). I used to refer to the cheese wall at Marks & Spencer as The Magical Wall of Cheese. When people make jokes about British food, I always tell them about the magical things Europeans (Brits included) do to dairy products. (I never understood the fuss people made over butter till I had Normandy butter... *drool*)![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
