quote:I don't think Mucus meant to insult your intelligence or doubt your honesty. Just to frame an interpretation of your experiences in a way that makes sense within the context of his own experience and study, which otherwise seems too dissonant.
Between you and Raymond and Tom and and rollaim, I really am starting to feel like I'm being unfairly dog piled here.
Mucus didn't say I had likely misunderstood or misinterpreted my friend until quite far into this discussion. He called the story I reported "hypothetical". When I said I couldn't figure out what he meant by hypothetical unless he meant I was making up the story, he still didn't clarify by saying he thought their had likely been a miscommuncation or that I had interpretted my friends polite conversation too literally. Instead, he said that hypotherical was the right word and I was "Dead Wrong about what my colleague had said. When I insisted that hypothetical wasn't the right word, he told me to come up with a word myself, and when I further insisted I really didn't know what he meant unless was accusing me of making the story up, the word he picked was "confabulation", which to my ears is just another synonym for "made up" . Was it really irrational of me to presume he was accusing me of making the whole thing up, of lying to make a point in this discussion? Was I really that far out to react as through he had insult my intelligence, my sanity and my integrity?
It was only after being pressed, not only by me, that he even mentioned the possibility of misunderstanding or the cultural differences between what is polite in China and the US as a possible reason to believe I might have misunderstood. Up until that point it was a simple of matter of "I know Chinese people so well that I know your story can't be true".
I really had no intention of offending Mucus. If Mucus is seriously offended by the claim that some people, even some Chinese people, have a very different opinion on the Chinese food in Toronto than he does -- he's the one who needs to take a few steps back and get some perspective.
I think I understand where Mucus is coming from. I understand why it would be irritating and offensive to have some one try to "teach" you something about your own culture. And I agree that Mucus' opinion on Chinese culture should get more respect than the opinions of your average American. But Mucus also needs to recognize that he is not the only Chinese person I've ever talked to. He isn't the foremost expert on China I know personally. When he says things that contradict what I have heard from China experts and Chinese immigrants I know personally, I am going to point it out. If he expects to place more weight on his assessments on China than Blayne's or my own, that's completely reasonable. But if he expects me to place more weight on his Chinese opinions than the opinions of other Chinese people I know in real life, he is being unreasonable. If he is offended by my truthful reporting that what I have heard from other Chinese people contradicts what he is saying, he's just out of line.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Oh, I think all Mucus meant was "dead wrong" was that Toronto has better Chinese food. Since you pretty much got behind this opinion he was saying he emphatically disagrees with you.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Oh, I think all Mucus meant was "dead wrong" was that Toronto has better Chinese food. Since you pretty much got behind this opinion he was saying he emphatically disagrees with you.
I suspect that it is easier to see it that way when you are not the one whose veracity is being attacked. But beyond that, I never actually claimed Toronto had better Chinese food, I claimed my Chinese colleague had expressed that opinion and Mucus seemed to be rejecting there was even a remote possibility a Chinese person might hold that opinion.
Furthermore, if you are correct about Mucus' intent, using the phrase "dead wrong" about something as utterly subjective as "better Chinese food" goes beyond hyperbole.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Oh, I think all Mucus meant was "dead wrong" was that Toronto has better Chinese food. Since you pretty much got behind this opinion he was saying he emphatically disagrees with you.
And furthermore, you made it quite clear earlier that you think I misinterpreted Mucus' intent. I'm willing to accept that. But my question, as I tried to state in the previous post, is not about what Mucus actually meant, it is about what he actually said. And given what he actually said, do you really think his intent was clearly communicated and that it was completely irrational for me to understand his words as an attack on my truthfulness?
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Yeah, the "Dead Wrong" part was the one point where I did feel Mucus was pretty rude and was probably the point that exacerbated most of this.
quote:Was it really irrational of me to presume he was accusing me of making the whole thing up, of lying to make a point in this discussion?
I didn't think your initial reaction was irrational (I think you jumped the gun a bit criticizing his grasp of the english language but I understand why you felt under attack at the time), but he did keep trying to clarify that he was having trouble finding a particular word with particular nuance: that there was probably a misunderstanding that was neither your fault nor your friends, but which nonetheless led to you having an incorrect belief.
He tried a number of ways to explain this, each of which made sense to me, and then found the word confabulation which was pretty close. But rather than see the nuance he was going for, you focused on the "made up" part, and that was where it looked as if you had become so focused on the perceived insult that you had given up on actually understanding what Mucus was trying to say. By that point I couldn't imagine Mucus saying anything else to try and clarify his point, so that's where I decided to try and help him out.
I didn't mean to end up counter-dogpiling you. But I think if you were to take a step back and look at this from a neutral perspective, you wouldn't see Mucus' remarks as nearly so insulting.
The point that I think IS important, which I touched upon a while back, is that this is precisely the kind of debate that, no matter how silly you're intending it to be, ends up looking very intimidating to a newbie. In the "whatever happened to Hatrack" threads, everyone bemoans the decline of the forum and how "certain posters" are making things worse, without realizing that they have contributed as well. You are generally one of the more thoughtful and fairminded people here, but I think it's important (for everyone) to realize how easy it is to transition into an intense, aggressive argument - even when it is not anybody's fault, and be able to realize when its happening and take a step back.
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It's probably unfair of me to weigh in and then decline to engage with follow up discussion, but...I just don't have it in me to re-read and reassess in order to respond with sufficient thought to your last couple of posts, Rabbit. I'm sorry. I can see things from your point of view, I think. I didn't mean to dogpile on you, FWIW.
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Fake edit: I can see how if you had misinterpreted the initial dead wrong statement that Mucus' attempts to clarify would have seen far less sincere. I'm not sure whether I think the Dead Wrong statement was poorly communicated or if it just happened to combine with the bad use of "hypothetical" to make it seem that way. Either way I did think it was unnecessarily inflammatory.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: BTW, wanted to check:
quote:The best brie is made from unpasteurized milk and is not legal to sell in the US.
I have seen raw milk cheese for sale out in the open in a grocery store. Probably about a month ago.
Which is more likely? 1) Some kinds of raw milk cheese are illegal to sell in the US but not others. 2) The store was selling contraband cheese out in the open. 3) The cheese was mislabeled. (edit:)4) It's not actually illegal to sell raw milk cheese in the US.
Here is what I could find.
quote:According to federal law, raw milk cannot be transported across state lines with the intent of human consumption. Unpasteurized cheeses are actually legal, as long as they have been aged at least 60 days in an environment held at 35 degrees Fahrenheit (1 degree Celsius). During the aging process, the cheese becomes more acidic, killing most potential sources of bacterial infection.
Am guessing that the two most likely explanations.
1. The cheese was aged more the 60 days so it was legal in the US.
2. The cheese was locally made and your state has more lenient regulations than the federal guidelines. Unless it was imported from outside the US or transported across state boundaries, it doesn't have to comply with federal law.
From what I understand, Brie in France must be aged under 5 weeks. So real French raw milk Brie isn't legal in the US.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Unless it's made here, presumably.
Well it isn't real French Brie if its made here. There might be a pretty good facsimile of french brie made some where in the US. But pretty much by definition, if its made here it ain't real French Brie.
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Stepping in a bit late here, I'd like to point out that Mucus hasn't actually addressed the core argument that The Rabbit posted last page - which is that basically there are areas of the US which have a high enough and diverse enough population of Chinese to support top-notch resturants.
The statistics Mucus used to guesstimate the relative spread of Chinese citizens in the US don't really prove his point, either. Immigrant populations in the US are not often found within cities, except in the case of NYC. Instead, they're found in the suburbs around cities. Thus, there aren't really that many Chinese immigrants in San Francisco proper. But there are certainly enough Chinese immigrants in the whole of the Bay Area to support a few world-class Chinese restaurants.
To support with anecdotal evidence, I grew up on the border of Sunnyvale & Cupertino, and the closest two shopping centers to my home were entirely dominated by Chinese/Taiwanese grocery stores, restaurants, and shops. There was one British pub at one, and a dance studio at the other, and every other store had its sign in both Chinese & English - or just Chinese. My high school Chinese friends - all of whom were 1st-generation immigrants from Taiwan, Hong Kong, or mainland China - said to a one that the Taiwanese noodle shop around the corner from my house served better noodles than they had ever had back home. We went at least once a week for a late lunch after class once the oldest of us got a driving license.
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quote:Well it isn't real French Brie if its made here. There might be a pretty good facsimile of french brie made some where in the US. But pretty much by definition, if its made here it ain't real French Brie.
There is a certain irony here, and I can't tell whether it was intentional.
I would like to say (perhaps a bit late) that I like American Brie fine but don't think it's the best thing in the world, which probably means I'd make a good test subject for Samprimary's earlier hypothesis that an American who thought Brie was "alright" would be impressed by French Brie.
I do not like Swiss or goat cheese in the slightest.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:There is a certain irony here, and I can't tell whether it was intentional.
Not really. I am unaware of any standards that restrict what can be called genuine Chinese cuisine. But France has all kinds of laws that define very specifically what foods can be called genuine french X, and to be called Brie, it doesn't simply have to be made in France -- it has to be made in a particular region of france. In fact the difference between Camembert and Brie is solely the region in which they are made, which results in very subtle differences in the milk, the bacteria and the molds. And these in turn result in subtle differences in the cheese which cheese connoiseurs will tell you are noticeable. In France, the distinctive characteristics of food that come from the subtle differences in soil, water, yeast, and bacteria that are unique to a given region, or even a given vineyard or cheese factory, are really important. That is why the typical grocery in France offers so many different cheese.
Maybe there are foods like that in China. If so, then I can see justification for claiming that you can't get authentic X outside of a specific regions of China. But if that's true, it hasn't been argued yet.
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Oh, I should also add that simply because something isn't "real French Brie" does not mean it isn't as good or even better than "real Brie". I'm completely willing to entertain the possibility that someone somewhere in the US is making a soft raw milk Brie style cheese that is very good. And if someone reported that a French friend thought the Brie style cheese made locally somewhere in North America was even better than the authentic French Brie, I'd very interested in trying a sample of the cheese.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: But France has all kinds of laws that define very specifically what foods can be called genuine french X, and to be called Brie, it doesn't simply have to be made in France -- it has to be made in a particular region of france.
Ah, I knew that was true for wine, but didn't realize it was true for cheese too.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Not really. I am unaware of any standards that restrict what can be called genuine Chinese cuisine. But France has all kinds of laws that define very specifically what foods can be called genuine ...
Technically, this is less an indication that there aren't standards for what is called Chinese cuisine rather than simply that mainland China isn't exactly a nation of laws, for the obvious reasons. Thus, on the whole, it hasn't really got around to this kind of thing.
I know Japan is starting this kind of thing and I expect that China will eventually too, for better or for worse.
quote:Officials in Tokyo, concerned that diners around the globe are getting a less-than-genuine taste of their nation's cuisine, are devising a sort of bureaucratic Zagat guide that will confer a stamp of authenticity on restaurants that meet the government's standards.
In California, where Asian cuisines are mixed and matched in a blender of ethnicities and subcultures, the plan could be a recipe for contention. Only about 10% of the state's 3,000 Japanese restaurants are Japanese-owned, with many now operated by Koreans, Chinese and Vietnamese.
That has left some local restaurateurs wondering whether nationality could become a litmus test for authenticity.
That said, I'm fairly dubious about the idea that trying to enforce these kind of things is really a good thing.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: But there are certainly enough Chinese immigrants in the whole of the Bay Area to support a few world-class Chinese restaurants.
As I said, I think I can accept the idea that there are two metropolitan areas in the US that have a sufficient Chinese population to at least be arguably in the same ballpark as Toronto.
But there are two different assertions that are of interest after resurrecting the thread.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... you can very frequently get better Chinese food in North America than you find in China.
This is the one I found the most dubious. First, if we're accepting of the fact that there are only 2 out of 52 states that even have food that is even debatable to be in the same neighbourhood as Toronto or Vancouver, then this is pretty hefty. It means even any backwater province in China has better Chinese food than 96% of America and that is without even bringing out the heavy hitters like Hong Kong, Shanghai, or Beijing.
This to me is not frequent. It means I could say something like "you can very frequently travel by high-speed rail in the US" or I can frequently buy Betamax videos in stores. I can understand the relative nature of this though.
On the other hand, a "few world-class restaurants"? Sure. No problem.
quote: He said this was both because better quality ingredients are available in North America and because one can find foods from all regions of China in north American cities where as in China one tends to find regional dishes only in their region.
First, I don't accept the premise that better quality ingredients are available in North America. Chinese food evolved with ingredients that were available in the area, ingredients that even now tend to be exported in great quantity to support overseas demand. But shipping cuts into freshness and Chinese food relies on freshness.
For example, high standards for freshness explain why wet markets survive in Hong Kong while even less fresh supermarkets can shut down in New York leaving whole areas with little fresh food.
quote:New York may be a foodie paradise, but it’s also full of food deserts. So says the city’s planning department, which last year reported that some three million New Yorkers live in neighborhoods with few fresh food options. Traditional groceries and supermarkets have shut down, to be replaced by fast food and drug store chains. ... The government’s involvement in turn reflects a cultural value. As I toured the wet markets with my 20-something translator and her 73-year-old grandmother, the older woman explained: it’s the freshness that supermarkets couldn’t beat. Hong Kong’s Cantonese cuisine (much lighter than what you’ll find in most American Chinese restaurants) depends on fresh ingredients, and local standards are high. The grandmother pointed out what “fresh” meant: live fish, not chilled; poultry still warm from slaughter; vegetables not wrapped in plastic.
Marketing studies back up this explanation. They also note that wet-market standards of freshness will likely survive the recent privatization, even if some of the markets do not.
Sometimes it simply means that certain local foods do not get exported because they are not optimal for long distance transport.
quote:This little town, a 90-minute train ride west of Shanghai, is a world away from Georgia. There's no Peachtree Street, no peach pie, no peach ice cream. About all Yangshan has are the juiciest, most delicious peaches on earth. ... Yet in an age when Australian lamb and Kobe beef from Japan wing their way around the world, most Asian fruits remain thousands of miles from U.S. kitchens. ... In the U.S., peach technology produces a very different product. "It's unfortunate that many of our peaches are bred to have superior shelf life and exterior color," says Karen Caplan, chief executive of Frieda's Inc., a Los Alamitos, Calif., high-end distributor of imported and domestic produce. "The growers don't focus on flavor. They refrigerate them in transit, put them on the shelf, and they go mealy."
"The whole fruit industry in this country is about decorating stores," says John Driver, a Modesto, Calif., apricot grower who sends his fruit to farmers markets around San Francisco. "They're looking for size, color and hardness, but people don't want to eat the things."
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We've gone past cigarettes and moved on to soft drinks as the demon of national health, next is cheese. Cheese lovers, get ready to pay your fair share. Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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