quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: If Pres. Obama had dignity, he would not have bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia.
Quoted because the sentiment is ultimately self-defeating. You lose this one before it begins, whether you know that or not.
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quote:President Barack Obama's deep bow to Japan's emperor has been castigated by U.S. critics as kowtowing to a foreign leader, but experts in Japanese etiquette praised it as an appropriate show of respect.
Visiting Tokyo last week at the start of his first presidential tour of Asia, Obama bowed down almost at a right angle as he shook hands with Emperor Akihito, the son of Japan's wartime Emperor Hirohito.
The gesture went largely unnoticed in Japan but has sparked intense debate in the United States about whether Obama had disgraced his country by showing excessive deference.
posted
*sigh* The conservatives railing about this aren't going to be happy no matter what he does. We need to just take their bloody megaphones away and stop giving them attention.
They have the maturity levels of 3 year olds and the only way we're going to teach them to be mature people is to ignore them. Let them shout into a vacuum for a while until they figure out that it isn't getting them anywhere.
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posted
I do find it a bit absurd that anyone with the faculty of reason should be upset by this. It is not only normal, but it is right that one should show respect where respect is due, and furthermore to show respect in a manner which will be recognised as such. And in Japan, that means bowing.
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quote:We need to just take their bloody megaphones away
What a miserably fascist idea.
Of all the arguments, the desire to force the opposition to shut up is the least persuasive.]
Followed closely by name-calling. I'm embarrased for you.
See, I don't see 'taking their megaphones away' as stifling their free speech. Assuming 'megaphones' was meant as a metaphor.
Let them say whatever they like. But why magnify (or amplify, going with the metaphor) their rantings? Ignore them, I say.
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To most conservatives, saying you are taking away their megaphones is hinting at implementing the inappropriately named "fairness doctrine" and taking AM radio away from them.
Let them have their megaphones, it's not like they follow you around screaming through them.
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quote:Let them have their megaphones, it's not like they follow you around screaming through them.
Heh. You must know a quieter bunch of conservatives.
No I've just lived in a place where there were no sound ordinances and driving around yelling through a megaphone WAS a standard practice when stumping for a candidate.
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Frankly, if I have to choose between Obama showing respect via bowing, and Bush showing extreme awkwardness via shoulder rubs, I'm picking the bowing.
He's trying to show the world that the United States aren't a bunch of self-involved, stuck up, arrogant pricks. And that's tough considering a large portion of America, with respect to outsiders, really are arrogant pricks. He can continue bowing to royalty around the world for all I care. If it means they respect and trust Obama more, that's to our benefit. It's not like we're going to make trade or military concessions based on respect and deference. We're not THAT far removed from our superpower mentality.
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posted
Conservative radio commentators are also screaming about Obama "apologizing for our treatment of women" to the Chinese, a nation who treats their women even worse. And that demanding greater internet access for the Chinese citizenry was stupid compared to demanding freedom of religion.
I'd wager they know next to nothing about Chinese rhetoric, and that apparently they don't realize that opening up the internet floods the country with ideas which then make those other freedoms more viable.
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Obama demanded greater internet access? I think he was commenting that he found the free speech of the internet to be a strength of democracy and that he appreciates having to face opinions that differ from his. Silly radio commentators.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Obama apologized for American treatment of American women?
From the speech,
quote:Of course, the story of our nation is not without its difficult chapters. In many ways -- over many years -- we have struggled to advance the promise of these principles to all of our people, and to forge a more perfect union. We fought a very painful civil war, and freed a portion of our population from slavery. It took time for women to be extended the right to vote, workers to win the right to organize, and for immigrants from different corners of the globe to be fully embraced. Even after they were freed, African Americans persevered through conditions that were separate and not equal, before winning full and equal rights.
That seems to be the apologetic language conservative commentators are complaining about.
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Looks like he's trying to connect America's history to China's present in a way. He's saying "see, we had a long road of struggle too, but we got better."
If anything, rather than apologizing, I think it could come off as Obama saying how much better America is because we've already done all the stuff that China still needs to do if they want to be as equal as we are. I, however, think it's good to recognize America's difficult quest to try and achieve the qualities we've so long proclaimed as making up our national agenda. Freedom and equality get bandied about a lot in American rhetoric, but I have to think that of all the nations on Earth who don't practice what they preach, America ranks at or near the top in our constant attempts to reinvent ourselves to more accurately represent our positive rhetoric.
Celebrating that, to me, is far more valuable than pretending we've always been a perfect model of equality. Conservative commentators need to broaden their horizons if that is what they took issue with.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Conservative radio commentators are also screaming about Obama "apologizing for our treatment of women" to the Chinese, a nation who treats their women even worse. And that demanding greater internet access for the Chinese citizenry was stupid compared to demanding freedom of religion.
I'd wager they know next to nothing about Chinese rhetoric, and that apparently they don't realize that opening up the internet floods the country with ideas which then make those other freedoms more viable.
They already have Freedom from religion. Why would they want 'of'?
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The president who recently called for the American people to "Not rush to judgment" on the Muslim yelling "Ala akbar" while shooting 40+ Americans sure rushed to judgment on the white police officer investigating a reported break in. It was the police officer's duty to investigate and the man inside the house who was uncooperative.
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Obama didn't bow to the Queen of England, America's #1 ally. If he did, I would understand his respect to the others. He only bows to totalitarian leaders, not freedom loving -long time allies. He only give's royals their due respect if they are tyrants.
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Does anyone bow to British royalty these days? Serious question -- I can't recall seeing it, but I don't watch the BBC much. In John Adams' day it was a different story. But back then the British monarch had actual power.
As for Britain being the US's #1 ally, what century are you living in?
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Furthermore, the Japanese Emperor is a totalitarian leader?
To repeat what rivka said, what century are you living in?
Britain being America's number one ally is debatable. Economically there are a half dozen nations that easily come before Britain in terms of value as an ally. Militarily, they might be the ones who readily support us the most, but strategically, South Korea and Japan probably have them beat, as well as Germany if you take into account actual manpower.
Britain was our #1 ally when they had an empire. Now? Not quite so important in worldwide affairs.
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quote: Does anyone bow to British royalty these days?
I got this from the Queen's website....
quote: The Queen meets thousands of people each year in the UK and overseas. Before meeting Her Majesty, many people ask how they should behave. The simple answer is that there are no obligatory codes of behaviour - just courtesy.
However, many people wish to observe the traditional forms of greeting.
For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way.
On presentation to The Queen, the correct formal address is 'Your Majesty' and subsequently 'Ma'am'.
quote:We need to just take their bloody megaphones away
What a miserably fascist idea.
Of all the arguments, the desire to force the opposition to shut up is the least persuasive.]
Followed closely by name-calling. I'm embarrased for you.
You know what our problem as liberals is? We are too unwilling to stoop to the level of our opponents! Name calling? Compared to the name calling that comes out of the conservative pundits who seem to form the core of the Republican party at this point, that was nothing. They are the ones who routinely call those who disagree with them traitors and terrorists! You know what we do to traitors and terrorists? Things far worse than simply silencing them. Embarrassed for me? If you're embarrassed for me, then where the hell is your embarrassment for those you follow? For those who's ideology you espouse?
Maybe their problem isn't low maturity. But if it isn't that, then it's something far worse. Malignant self interest at the expense of the rest of the country. I prefer to believe that it's simply a child-like need to get their way and an immature unwillingness to even so much as examine the other point of view or engage with the other side. Instead they fall back on yelling slurs and lies as loud as they can and screaming misinformation.
When I'm talking about taking away their megaphones I'm not talking about taking away their free speech or locking them up. I'm talking about simply no longer allowing them to scream over every one else. They can have their say, but they shouldn't get to dictate the terms of the debate. And they shouldn't be allowed to scream so loud that no one else can be heard or maintain a civil and respectful discussion.
The "mainstream" media needs to stop paying attention to them. If people want to hear them, they can listen to their shows. But the rest of us don't need to be bombarded by their nonsensical bs. The "mainstream" media should spend their time performing a rational and respectful examination of the facts and the issues.
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Lyrhawn: I quite agree with you. Humility when addressing the Chinese is also extremely important if you want them to listen to anything you have to say.
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You know what, Kat, I don't care if you disagree with me. I don't care if you think Health Care doesn't belong in government. I don't care if you think the government hasn't the right to levee an income tax. I don't care if you think we're spending too much on education and social programs and too little on the war in Afghanistan. And I can understand if you don't like Obama, because you disagree with him. I can respect all of that, though I'll respectfully disagree with you.
What I care about is that you respect my opinion as much as I'll respect yours. That you maintain an open mind and a willingness to examine my arguments and evidence with-out prejudgement. Maintain a willingness to be convinced by them, as I maintain a willingness to be convinced by your arguments. Maintain a willingness to not take offense if someone presents you with evidence as to why you are wrong. Yes those things are hard to do, but with out them we'll just end up yelling at each other and our Democracy will grind to a screeching halt or break into civil war.
I also care that you employ facts in the debate. Not straw men, not name calling (Facist, socialist!), and not vague statements of overarching ideals. I'm interested in what WORKS not idealogical purity.
Now those statements don't always apply to you. They apply to the party you regularly defend. Or what's left of it. They didn't used to, but unfortunately they seem to more and more every day. It's not their principles I take issue with, though I disagree with them and I've never been show compelling evidence to suggest I shouldn't, it's their method that really infuriates me. A method that shows a complete disregard for the actual facts. A complete lack of respect for anything but their ideology. A complete lack of respect for those who disagree with them. And a complete unwillingness to entertain any other idea or way of doing things. I say you, because in defending this party you all too often wind up employing their methods. I wish you wouldn't, and when you don't I'll be all too happy to have a respectful discussion with you.
And when they stop, I promise I will entertain their ideas and be glad of it. But only once they start employing facts in support of those ideas and only when they are willing to entertain mine with out shouting "Facist" or "Socialist" or "Nazi" in my face.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... America ranks at or near the top in our constant attempts to reinvent ourselves to more accurately represent our positive rhetoric.
It ranks at the top in terms of positive rhetoric anyways.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Obama didn't bow to the Queen of England, America's #1 ally. If he did, I would understand his respect to the others. He only bows to totalitarian leaders, not freedom loving -long time allies. He only give's royals their due respect if they are tyrants.
English people don't greet each other by bowing. Japanese people do.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Does anyone bow to British royalty these days?
Is it different because we specifically broke away from the UK?
Given that John Adams bowed to the very monarch the brand-new US had broken from, I'm going with "no". And DK's link indicates that a full, formal bow is no longer appropriate, as it was in George III's day.
Did the president do the head-bob bow? Do we have footage -- surely there must be some.
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Gotta really love the BBC, no commentary, no music, you can hear everything they are saying to each other.
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Mal, you do know that Obama didn't bow to the Chinese. He bowed to the Japanese Emporer--a symbolic and religious leader from the longest uninterrupted monarchy in the world.
Would you be upset if he kissed the Pope's ring?
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Obama is recognized as the most powerful man in the world.
When you have that much power, showing deference to lesser leaders is gracious. It is the very essence of dignity.
The emperor of Japan is just a figure head with even less real power than the Queen of England. Bowing to the Japanese Emperor is a sign of respect for the Japanese people and their customs, not evidence that Obama is some sort of closet royalist.
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quote:English people don't greet each other by bowing. Japanese people do.
Excellent point. Bowing is a very standard greeting in Japan, almost the equivalent of an American handshake.
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Would you be upset if he kissed the Pope's ring?
If he was meeting with the Pope in his capacity as President, I would be outraged if he kissed the Pope's ring.
(Waits for someone to point out that this has already happened and I failed to be outraged at the time.)
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... not evidence that Obama is some sort of closet royalist.
Indeed. As a closet Muslim and closet Communist, he probably just doesn't have enough room for more stuff.
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posted
I don't care what symbolic gestures he makes to other world leaders. I wouldn't care if he got down on his knees and groveled to the king of a tiny African nation - if that was the typical sign of respect for that king and as long as the king then stood toe to toe with him and shook his hand as we shake hands. That's part of diplomacy - you meet with other people both on your terms and their terms. You recognize the differences in your cultures and you observe each other's cultural traditions. If those fifteen seconds of groveling raise Obama's stature in the eyes of the people of that African nation and therefore makes them more amenable to the US and more likely to negotiate with us and engage with us - then what on Earth do we lose? We only lose something in that case if we declare we've lost something. And if we don't then we've gained a considerable amount by our President being understanding of other cultures.
So despite the fact that I would never want Obama to suggest that America is in any way, shape or form beholden to the Pope, I would be entirely okay with him kissing the Pope's ring. If that's the requisite gesture of respect toward the Pope (I don't know if it is), then that's fine.
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quote:English people don't greet each other by bowing. Japanese people do.
Excellent point. Bowing is a very standard greeting in Japan, almost the equivalent of an American handshake.
But it is not the standard protocol for world leaders meeting the Japanese Emperor. The protocol is a handshake or a bow (and never both. oops!) and most (or at least many) world leaders choose the more egalitarian handshake.
I appreciate attempting to show cultural respect, but in this case it was unwarranted and awkward. Really, I see it as the product of a somewhat inept state dept. that continues to flub Obama's staging on the international stage (when should we announce we're pulling the missile shield out of Poland? Oh, I know, the anniversary of the Russian invasion! Perfect).
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Here we go. There's kind of a head bow, in the midst of shaking hands. It's a little hard to tell it could be a bow or a nod.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Furthermore, the Japanese Emperor is a totalitarian leader?
Duh. Of course he is. It's a well known fact that Obama only give's royals their due respect if they are tyrants, and he bowed to the Japanese Emperor. What other conclusion could you possibly reach? Stop smoking the cool-aid, Lyrhawn! Wake up and smell the roses!
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posted
Obama couldn't have won. If he hadn't bowed at all, I would have felt like he was being kinda snobby.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... America ranks at or near the top in our constant attempts to reinvent ourselves to more accurately represent our positive rhetoric.
It ranks at the top in terms of positive rhetoric anyways.
Please, how often do you actually listen to the positive rhetoric of others? We're average. Hell, al qaeda beats us when it comes to positive rhetoric about themselves.
You honestly refuse to give credit to America for the progress made from its inception to now?
I'm not hyperpatriotic in any sense, in fact, I think I fall into the camp of the overly critical most of the time. It's not to be critical when I spend most of my days reading up on America's past failures, and when much of what I see in the news is disappointing. However, much of what I also read, in addition to America's failures, is 1. Admission of those failures. 2. Efforts taken to correct them. 3. Genuine change and progress from generation to generation.
Not every nation can boast that. Actually, I'd say not that many nations can boast that. And no nation in the world has had to do it under such a public world spotlight. Actually, I think the spotlight helped, so thanks for that, world.
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Here we go. There's kind of a head bow, in the midst of shaking hands. It's a little hard to tell it could be a bow or a nod.
Darn, now mal will have to find something else to get het up about!
I'd never heard the phrase "get het up about" before this semester, and now I've heard it like a half dozen times from a half dozen different sources. That's just weird.
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In case it wasn't obvious, it was intentional. Similarly, I'm aware that cool-aid is drunk, and that the expression is "wake up and smell the coffee".
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