FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » *poke* (Page 2)

  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: *poke*
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
Tom:
quote:
I have had shouting matches with the owner of this site and his wife over just this issue. I told him exactly what would happen if he continued doing what he was doing; I told him exactly what effect it would have on this place, and told him at great length how much I would regret it. I recommended specific steps to address the issue several years ago, when they would have made a difference.
What in your opinon has Mr. Card and wife been doing that directly contributes to the state we are discussing? What could they have been doing to prevent it?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post 
What decisions?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
*sigh* It's old news, BB. The site will someday find a new equilibrium; IMO, it's almost there now. (A major shake-up could disturb things again, for good or ill, but I mean a major one -- like a site redesign, a promotional period, etc.)

I don't want to go into it at length. To sum up: the "this is Card's living room" metaphor worked very well, as long as people believed it. But it was only a metaphor that could work as long as the atmosphere contributing to it was sustained.

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post 
I think once the "what has happened to Hatrack" threads outnumber all other threads - which should be within about 12-15 months, by my guess - people will all stop, rub their eyes, look around, realize they all want to be friends and just have a good time talking to each other, and everything will be all right again.

(OTOH, OSC hasn't published a World Watch for over half a year, and is writing in a new universe with series potential [Stonefather or something?], so there are real reasons to hope that whatever attracts people to his living room might shift to things less controversial than gay marriage and war.)

Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
Since I think I came back to Hatrack around 6 months ago, I wonder - what was everyone talking about before I got here that was so great?

I think I got most of my numbers in posts (granted, they are not high), discussing religion. We don't even talk about that as much as we used to.

What were the topics discussed?

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Noemon
Member
Member # 1115

 - posted      Profile for Noemon   Email Noemon         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Since I think I came back to Hatrack around 6 months ago, I wonder - what was everyone talking about before I got here that was so great?

What were the topics discussed?

Pretty much the same type of topics that are discussed now. The difference was more one of tone and number of thoughtful participants in the conversations. Go look at some of the longer threads from 2003 if you're curious.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*sigh* It's old news, BB. The site will someday find a new equilibrium; IMO, it's almost there now. (A major shake-up could disturb things again, for good or ill, but I mean a major one -- like a site redesign, a promotional period, etc.)

I don't want to go into it at length. To sum up: the "this is Card's living room" metaphor worked very well, as long as people believed it. But it was only a metaphor that could work as long as the atmosphere contributing to it was sustained.

I still don't understand then how the forum developed to how it was, and now it's suddenly in a state of flux. Was there something unique about it when it was first conceived, and when I joined the forum it was already transitioning and I simply failed to recognize it?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes. But I honestly don't think it'd do any good to discuss it here. Drop me an email if you're really interested.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post 
Someone once posted a fairly long post about forum evolution and ideas to keep a forum from degrading. I don't remember if that was Tom or not, but it seems like a lot of this has been discussed before in great detail.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
*nod* It was probably Samprimary and I. We've had these discussions before.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post 
Hatrack has gone through a lot of transitions over the years. There have even been dead weeks in the past that haven't been the kiss of death for the site. There have been trolls before. There have been fights before. It can be hard to tell if we are in a normal part of the up and down cycle or there is a longer term trend.

I do think there has been a general deterioration in the past couple years. We've lost some of the calmer voices recently which makes the shriller voices more apparent. Many of the people who dominate the forum right now seem to enjoy a fight. I'm not sure why that is exactly. I think overtime we have distilled off the lighter happier contributors and have therefore concentrated the heavier angrier elements of the forum.

Maybe we have simply grown too old as a community. We've rehashed the same topics too many times. Many have become bored with listening and rebutting the same arguments one more time. Those who still show up for the argument tend to be the hard core so the debate is from the outset much more polarized. There is too much old baggage lying around both within certain topics and between certain individuals. Unless you've followed every thread for years, its easy to accidentally blow on smoldering coals and start a fire.

Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post 
I notice that there are some posts that I read and groan, because I know that as soon as person A says X, person B will have to say y and the rest of the thread will be the two of them bickering. This is especially annoying if it was an interesting topic up until then.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Noemon
Member
Member # 1115

 - posted      Profile for Noemon   Email Noemon         Edit/Delete Post 
I just spent the last little while looking back at old landmark threads. I miss when the community here was so intimate and generally supportive that it was a safe place for people to share of themselves that way.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
I miss when the community here was so intimate and generally supportive that it was a safe place for people to share of themselves that way.

As do I.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
I miss when the community here was so intimate and generally supportive that it was a safe place for people to share of themselves that way.

As do I.
Me too.

As much as I am tempted to blame certain individuals (who will remain nameless) for the change in the feel of this community, I recognize that this is overly simplistic. Perhaps we all need to bear part of the responsibility. We have always had acerbic members of the community. We have always had those who over react. We have always had trolls. We have always had personality conflicts and flame wars, but somehow in the past we managed to keep those people and those discussions from dominating the community and setting the tone for the forum.

Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
I honestly don't feel like it's an "unsafe" place to share yourself. The people here who get aggressive in political/religious topics are almost always perfectly civil in other threads. However, threads that basically say "hey, I did this recently and I'm proud of myself and want to share it" don't lend themselves well to discussion. There's not much other people can say other than "Wow, that's cool," unless the topic naturally lends itself towards an actual discussion of some kind.

I think Landmark threads are like midichlorians - they are not what makes a good forum all by themselves, but they arise naturally when people in the forum are otherwise close knit and have plenty of other things to talk about nicely.

Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dante
Member
Member # 1106

 - posted      Profile for Dante           Edit/Delete Post 
I can't speak for everyone, but my non-frequenting of the forum is due completely to a specific handful of posters who have made the whole place so unpleasant that I rarely have any desire to contribute to a conversation here.
Posts: 1068 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
Again, I'd have to ask - is that really a problem outside political/religious threads?
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Dante:
I can't speak for everyone, but my non-frequenting of the forum is due completely to a specific handful of posters who have made the whole place so unpleasant that I rarely have any desire to contribute to a conversation here.

I hope that I am not one of those people, but fear that at least at times I have become such.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I think Landmark threads are like midichlorians - they are not what makes a good forum all by themselves, but they arise naturally when people in the forum are otherwise close knit and have plenty of other things to talk about nicely.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Again, I'd have to ask - is that really a problem outside political/religious threads?

Yes.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
Can I maybe posit, as sort of a new member, that it is difficult to join the fray? Maybe you are protecting the small community you have formed amongst yourselves over the years, but for someone like me, it is difficult to pierce.

And it seems like you know each other very well, and you know your ideological stances on many issues, that you don't want to go through them again and again.

When new blood comes in and poses an argument - they are often disparaged for not having run a search and researched the Hatrack history that already exists.

I recognize that it can be annoying to rehash, but maybe having the same argument can be used to meet and learn new people. Honestly, what keeps me from commenting and limits me to trolling is not "wolves" or pushy people. I am more intimidated by how intimately you all seem to know one another, to read each others minds before reading the posts, etc.

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
I think that is a fair criticism, Armoth. It has always been true to some degree -- I remember a discussion about a year after I joined as to whether or not I was still a newbie -- but I think it has gotten worse lately. It may be a circling the wagons issue.

And speaking just for myself, I tend to forget that you haven't been here for ages. You joined the same month as I did, but then disappeared for 5 years. [Wink]

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Yes
Okay, this is an inherently touchy subject, since any attempt to point to specific behavior essentially amounts to pointing fingers which we're all trying not to do, but I really have no idea what you mean. Outside of religious/political threads I see behavior that I might consider "snarky," but don't consider that inherently rude or mean-spirited. This may be a bit subjective, since the same kind of barbed humor that might be used to demean someone in an argument can be considered friendly in a different conversation - and in real life you'd have less problem telling the difference, but this is the internet and there isn't a smiley appropriate for every shade of sarcasm. There's another forum I frequent that's a lot rowdier than this one where people make fun of each other all the time and it's just part of the local camaraderie.

On top of that, some of the animosity might carry over from an argument thread to another thread, and either you or I could be misconstruing things in either direction. Dunno.

Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
On top of that, some of the animosity might carry over from an argument thread to another thread

I think this is a big part of it. Especially since it sometimes seems like almost every thread turns into one these days -- or dies before it hits page 3.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
Half of my point, though, was that you might be assuming animosity where there was none intended, because a poster has a generally sarcastic, biting sense of humor that happens to be genuinely mean in some cases but not in another.

Another issue: We haven't had new TV episodes to talk about for 3 months, and there was something like 10 separate threads that stayed roughly on the front page with new posts for at least half of each week that are no longer there. Hopefully that will be remedied starting this week.

Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Half of my point, though, was that you might be assuming animosity where there was none intended, because a poster has a generally sarcastic, biting sense of humor that happens to be genuinely mean in some cases but not in another.

Possibly. Nonetheless, if I am no longer comfortable here, that is a fact. Analyzing it or speculating on the reasons why won't make it go away.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kwea
Member
Member # 2199

 - posted      Profile for Kwea   Email Kwea         Edit/Delete Post 
I still post here, but it is rare that I find a topic that interestes me these days. It's not that this place is boring, or that all the intelligent people have left....far from it.

But in the past year I had some medical issues, some serious family issues, lost my job, went back to school, and am getting ready to become a nurse in December.

I don't have the time, inclination, or energy to spare these days.

Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shanna
Member
Member # 7900

 - posted      Profile for Shanna   Email Shanna         Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I have to agree with Armoth. I've been following Hatrack for four years but I don't feel apart of the community. I stick around because its a great place to easily catch up on news of interest to me (movies, tv shows, politics, science, etc.)

However, I don't feel free to participate more myself. I don't get many of the inside jokes and regarding a comment above, there's a feeling of hostility when a topic is discussed more than once as if people will never change their opinions and no new members have joined the forum. I also greatly admire the intelligent opinions of the posters who are older, more experience, more educated than myself but it feels like anyone who isn't an expert on a subject has an invalid opinion, particularly in the controversial/political/historical topics. Why is there so much hostility when there's so much potential for someone to educate and for another to learn?

Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Possibly. Nonetheless, if I am no longer comfortable here, that is a fact. Analyzing it or speculating on the reasons why won't make it go away.
Fair enough.

quote:
but it feels like anyone who isn't an expert on a subject has an invalid opinion, particularly in the controversial/political/historical topics.
Actually I think this is pretty good point, and this is something I think is relevant even for well spoken and friendly people here. I've seen people not exactly be rude, but there are responses in conversations along the lines of "You're using logical fallacy X" with the obvious subtext that anyone who doesn't already know what logical fallacy X is shouldn't even be bothering.

Now, sometimes the person committing logical fallacy X is acting indignant and/or self righteous and clearly not in good faith, and they absolutely deserve to be called out on it. But sometimes other people who are younger/less experienced and who simply haven't taken a class in logic or debate, and they get caught in the crossfire.

Based on all the different stories going on, it looks to me like there's really nothing in particular that's destroying the forum, it's just a conflux of events, but it doesn't really change the self perpetuating nature of some of the problems.

Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I honestly don't feel like it's an "unsafe" place to share yourself. The people here who get aggressive in political/religious topics are almost always perfectly civil in other threads. However, threads that basically say "hey, I did this recently and I'm proud of myself and want to share it" don't lend themselves well to discussion. There's not much other people can say other than "Wow, that's cool," unless the topic naturally lends itself towards an actual discussion of some kind.
Actually I think this is an important point. In the past, because of the good natured communication that took place here, many of those threads DID get a lot of discussion. It was the fluff and the non contentious thread bonding that added to the welcome feeling this forum had. You could post something silly or interesting about your day and, similarly to how it would go if you did this with your friends at home, a fun session of bantering would ensue.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Someone once posted a fairly long post about forum evolution and ideas to keep a forum from degrading. I don't remember if that was Tom or not, but it seems like a lot of this has been discussed before in great detail.

I guess I can pimp my wares a bit because I guess it has remained relevant. From June:

quote:
Here, wanna hear some forum influx theory?

1. A forum's natural state is one of slow decline. Posters atrophy. Regular posters fall into lurking, or vanish from the site. This happens over the course of years. It is a gradual process. It is usually motivated by environmental changes ("I don't feel like I fit in at X anymore") or life changes ("I got a job."). Forums have need of replenishment to maintain activity.

2. Replenishment comes in the form of the forum's 'hook' that turns non-posters into posters. How do users find the site and decide to become posters? What common interests do they share? A forum becomes a demographic representative of the demographics that leech in through this hook. Active posting populations on the site will often transform over the years to mirror changes in the hook.

3. When large changes have occurred in a forum's overall demeanor over time, one usually ought to look at the hook. What has changed in it? In the case of Hatrack's changes, one need only look at which of those changes have been precipitated by changes in Orson Scott Card's demeanor and his notoriety. What kind of curious onlookers would OSC and his site bring in today as opposed to ten years ago?

4. Over the course of the years, the level of moderation in a highly political community, or any community which caters to a sub-population of people who are very zealous about their views, will determine the way in which the population will evolve. It tends to follow a pattern of Shrillness By Default. In any typical hatrack-like community undergoing potential change in tone, you will have a percentage of posters who prefer to (or will fall to) arguing in a 'shrill' fashion. You will also have people who prefer a chill, non-hostile community.

If you do not specifically curtail the 'shrill,' it will win every time.

If you look back at Hatrack when it was less 'hostile,' (I lurked during this point, mostly) you'll see the chill posters posting in droves, and the could-go-either-way posters matching the chill tone. You will always have posters which disrupt this, however. If for whatever reason the site's moderation can not or does not opt to properly curtail the influence of arguers that fall into two general categories.

— a 'Vehement' strongly believes in something to the point that it slowly overrides their cool if anyone disagrees with them. If a soft-spoken or generally pleasant poster consistently disagrees with them, even politely, it will drive the Vehement into progressively more capricious and dismissive argumentation. Result: after a certain point, the Vehement controls the tone of debate. People looking to avoid hostility (the chill posters, pleasant dudes, etc) leech out into the "oh, I generally avoid those discussions" category, and only those looking to pick a fight or invest in a fight will brawl with the Vehement, as the outcome is guaranteed (a fight).

— A 'Ferrous Cranus' (or a 'Slag') absolutely refuses to alter their stance on anything and they typically seem too dumb or too irrational to. They are not ever actually engaging in a dialogue. They have one consistent view and they will constantly 'correct' others and, in turn, avoid any self-correction and defy even the most patient and well-intentioned poster's attempts to provoke critical thought and remain obliquely incapable of understanding even the most well-worded corrections of their obvious mistakes.

— A subgroup of the Slag is the Radioactive Slag, whose default positions are typically ones that are blatantly offensive to the nominal population of the board, so they are constantly provoking ire and responses that are always, ultimately, fruitless.

These folks have the power to transform the argumentative environ of any board to themselves. It will always happen the same way, if they are allowed. It is a well observed phenomenon.

In the case of Hatrack, critical mass was achieved when, on top of other brewing problems (OSC's polemic had changed the forum's poster replenishment draw), there came a season of radioactive slags. Bean Counter and Reshpecobiggle stand out. They helped drive the forum into a much more acrimonious tone as they wear down people's patience and cede ground to an environment of provocative and dismissive argumentation.

Strange as it may seem, elsewhere I have long worked as the primary peacekeeper. I have to nip duders like these in the bud. it's the most important role of a forum's moderation team past preventing the manufacture of drama.

This forum is not moderated in a way which prevents this change from happening. It does not make good use of temps, probation, subject bans, and the regretful but necessary culling of toxic posters who refuse to change their ways. Bean Counter was allowed to post for a long, long time. When he finally got the axe after multiple unnecessary warnings, he came back under an obvious alt and ... was allowed to post again. And he counts only as an extreme example. People half as bad as him have to be curtailed (e.g., "resh, if you want to keep posting here, you need to stay out of abortion debates from now on; you've proven that you're not able to handle them in a respectful way").

In addition, the 'thread lock' system is too much of a clusterbomb. It gives a problem poster the capacity to nuke an entire discussion. It does not extract them from the process and allow the chill posters to continue in a discussion with the problem element controlled. it simply puts everything on hold until the problem poster can go mong up the next thread on that subject.

A forum's moderation team might simply be saying 'we wish for our users to have the freedom to argue that way if they wish.' This is their choice. As long as they understand what that choice is going to result in over time in a sufficiently aged community, they are welcome to make it, but they shouldn't be surprised when a few months of fallout occur from argumentation that frustrates a community at large and tilts the forum's tone to one that is increasingly hostile.

That's my take on it, anyway. Hatrack is having legacy-level problems. This stuff creeps up over the years. I have actually watched it eventually capsize whole other communities.

The Hatracks of the internet actually create the phenomenon of 'refugee' forums, which are absurdly common.

Months after the fact, I still get to observe and prod and interact with hatrack as a case study of what requires instant attention versus what will reliably self-police itself through attitudes of the community.

I know I am more or less approaching this issue from a semi-detached position (I've never really considered myself having a 'horse in this race' and was just going to roll with it and have fun) I'll say the same thing now I would say then:

Hatrack is in trouble because it is not effectively being moderated. It has not adapted to changing situations. The means by which this community self-policed in the past do not work anymore because of both how internet communities have changed and because of how orson scott card's hook has changed for the forum. the whole self-policing concept "works until it does not." once it stops working, you cannot just keep relying on the old methods and hope that the negative trends reverse for some reason.

You'll just get a new forum you don't want, because there are plenty of forces that act upon a community's cohesiveness that, in the absence of consistent moderation, actively punish a forum's politeness and depress and drive away people who try politeness only to see it utterly fail. We had/have that here! It only rewards the posters and the posting habits you do not want to keep.

A long time has passed since the forum needed to wake up, increase both its moderator coverage AND the consistency of its enforced policies, and (this is important!) have policies clearly, unambiguously spelled out to consistently enforce. Simply referring to the generic terms of service agreement does not cut it at all and is one of the more common and incredibly dumb mistakes a forum's controlling interests can make.

Given the degree that hatrack has contracted from a formerly vibrant community, the usefulness of my advice has decreased significantly and the forum is already on its way to a 'reboot' phase. Compared to, say, a year ago, there is much less to save; considering that I still in September classify hatrack as an 'effectively unmoderated' or 'nerfdarts from space' forum I cannot reasonably anticipate change.

quote:
Originally Posted By Tom, Son of David. Or was it Davidson?
I have had shouting matches with the owner of this site and his wife over just this issue. I told him exactly what would happen if he continued doing what he was doing; I told him exactly what effect it would have on this place, and told him at great length how much I would regret it. I recommended specific steps to address the issue several years ago, when they would have made a difference.

I was absolutely, entirely, comprehensively correct. I was also vilified and slandered and mocked for making the effort.

So, yeah, I'm sad to see Hatrack reduced to what it is. But blaming the "wolves" is missing the point. From the very moment certain decisions were made, its current state became inevitable. And it's not the fault of some handful of hypothetically unconstructive posters, either.

I guess I would like to hear this story too, especially what/when these 'certain decisions' are/were made and how you tried to prevent this situation from inevitably coming to pass!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
I am also interested in hearing Tom's story, and it seems to me that with at least three interested people it makes more sense to go ahead and post it here than try and maintain 3 separate e-mail conversations. I can't imagine it being more inflammatory than other stuff on the board.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Parkour
Member
Member # 12078

 - posted      Profile for Parkour           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Given the degree that hatrack has contracted from a formerly vibrant community, the usefulness of my advice has decreased significantly and the forum is already on its way to a 'reboot' phase. Compared to, say, a year ago, there is much less to save; considering that I still in September classify hatrack as an 'effectively unmoderated' or 'nerfdarts from space' forum I cannot reasonably anticipate change.
Okay, I'll bite.

What is a nerfdarts from space forum?

Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
It has to do with the style by which the forum is moderated. "rocks from space" comes from situations when the moderation of a site seems so incredibly remote and delayed that it is equatable to being a far-off entitity perched up in space above the forum's surface mostly unresponsive of the day-to-day problems of the community, only finally hucking rocks at issues that have grown so big that they have finally become visible from up there.

rocks from space is considered a dysfunctional form of moderation because it is not proactive and it does not stop these conflagrations before they can blow over and inordinately harm the community. the moderation comes long after it would have been most effective. You end up with a forum historically beset by dramatic impacts and covered in craters. This is a problem with a lot of forums, actually! It is equivalent to a fire department that only sends out the firetrucks once an entire block is already on fire.

nerfdarts from space is when the 'unwillingness/reluctance to interfere' aspect of the moderation is so large as to mean that even the eventual response is usually very weak and ultimately ignorable by the vast majority of offenders, as if foam darts were tossed instead of rocks. The mod(s) just go 'i would feel so much better if I did not have to deal with these things!' and toss out light rebukes, but realistically the forum is ultimately still pretty much in the same position to repeat exactly what just happened again with the exact same offenders as before. It only works if 100% of the population is embarrassed into behaving afterwards simply for virtue of being slapped on the wrist only after having gone way way out of line.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I can't imagine it being more inflammatory than other stuff on the board.
I don't want to put Moose in an awkward position, and I don't want to talk about other people when they aren't prepared to offer their own version of events.

Besides, believe me, it doesn't matter. The most destructive force at Hatrack right now is people whining about Hatrack; the belief -- largely mistaken, IMO -- that we are somehow incapable of having respectful conversations anymore is the single biggest impediment to doing so. I don't want to perpetuate that myth in any way.

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The most destructive force at Hatrack right now is people whining about Hatrack
I am not sure that's correct!

But anyway I would love to hear the story anyway. If it's not a massive waste of time and brain cells, you could email it to me I guess. I kind of want to fit the whole story into my comprehensive nerd theses about why online communities falter and fail.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
I'd appreciate being added to the CC list as well. I enjoy some good history [Smile]
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
I keep hearing about a time when Hatrack was this golden, different place. I started posting here a long time ago and I remember it being pretty much like this, though much less welcoming to non-Mormons (not unwelcoming exactly, but less). It may have felt "safer" and more congenial to some because it was more homogeneous. That is a pretty normal human feeling. We all tend to be more comfortable when there are more people "like us" around.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, CC me that memo, I've been wondering about that particular conversation for years.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Noemon
Member
Member # 1115

 - posted      Profile for Noemon   Email Noemon         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I keep hearing about a time when Hatrack was this golden, different place. I started posting here a long time ago and I remember it being pretty much like this, though much less welcoming to non-Mormons (not unwelcoming exactly, but less). It may have felt "safer" and more congenial to some because it was more homogeneous. That is a pretty normal human feeling. We all tend to be more comfortable when there are more people "like us" around.

I know that you've said before that it was that way when you first joined (that was back in the Big Mouth Lion days, right?). I joined in '99, right after the switch to the current forum, and there was still a touch of what you're talking about, although it didn't seem too terrible to me. The period that I look back on as being the most congenial is a bit later--probably 2002-2003 or 2004. The site was pretty heterogeneous at that point, but was still a safe enough place for something like the landmark tradition to develop.

By the way, my touch of dyslexia struck with the phrase "nerfdarts from space". Transpose the "f" and the "d" in the first word and you get a very different thing.

Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
Personally, I have to agree with Armoth. I've been following Hatrack for four years but I don't feel apart of the community. I stick around because its a great place to easily catch up on news of interest to me (movies, tv shows, politics, science, etc.)

However, I don't feel free to participate more myself. I don't get many of the inside jokes and regarding a comment above, there's a feeling of hostility when a topic is discussed more than once as if people will never change their opinions and no new members have joined the forum. I also greatly admire the intelligent opinions of the posters who are older, more experience, more educated than myself but it feels like anyone who isn't an expert on a subject has an invalid opinion, particularly in the controversial/political/historical topics. Why is there so much hostility when there's so much potential for someone to educate and for another to learn?

I forgot to add the fact that major clickiness is felt when people don't even acknowledge your post.

Or when they tell stories about firsthand experiences with OSC and tell their friends that they will email them in private.

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah. I don't know about BML because I am not a computer person, but it was back in the last century. The congenial time was after I left because things were pretty hostile.

Hey! Maybe is it me?

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Noemon
Member
Member # 1115

 - posted      Profile for Noemon   Email Noemon         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I forgot to add the fact that major clickiness is felt when people don't even acknowledge your post.

Do you acknowledge every post that you read and find worthwhile? I don't. It can be galling to put a lot of energy into a post and have it go unremarked, certainly, but you can generally console yourself with the knowledge that even if poeple don't respond to what you said directly, they read it, and it probably provoked some thought.

quote:
Or when they tell stories about firsthand experiences with OSC and tell their friends that they will email them in private.
Oh, come on; that's a distortion of what's happening. Tom doesn't want to talk about something publicly. That's perfectly acceptable. After continued probing from another forum member, Tom told him that they could take it to email, and a number of people chimed in saying that they'd like to be cc:ed. Whether or not Tom will actually copy any of them on it I have no idea, but that doesn't really matter. If you want to know what the story is, you could request to be cc:ed too.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Noemon
Member
Member # 1115

 - posted      Profile for Noemon   Email Noemon         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:

Hey! Maybe is it me?

Well, I didn't want to point any fingers, but....
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I forgot to add the fact that major clickiness is felt when people don't even acknowledge your post.

Good thing that didn't happen here, huh?

quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Or when they tell stories about firsthand experiences with OSC and tell their friends that they will email them in private.

[Roll Eyes]

Someone stopping you from going to an OSC booksigning?

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
Rivka, it was interesting that Shanna posted and no one acknowledged her point. You acknowledged me, but that's different - you happen to be one of the nicest members of Hatrack. I officially exempt you from this particular problem. Can you not see what I am saying re: the majority though?

Noemon - that isn't my point. Of course I don't expect people to respond to every post. But it's ironic that in a post about exclusion, you are barely acknowledged.

Hatrack IS cliquey - i appreciate some defensiveness, but it is incredibly hard to break through. The way I feel, is that my posts are less likely to be incorporated into the flow of the conversation. Now, that may be because of content - but I think I have noticed a pattern of cliquiness that makes it a bit stifling.

On the book signing thing - Oh c'mon. There was a thread about how cool you are based on how many degrees of separation there is from you to OSC. Are you really going to reply to my feelings of exclusion by saying that I have the same rights to go to a book signing as you do? Sadly, he does not often visit NY.

[ September 22, 2009, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Armoth ]

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
Armoth: I'm just one person, but I stop and read your posts in threads whenever I find them, especially the Jewish ones. Can't say I do the same for everybody else.

Recognize that while few may actually respond to your point, many people you don't see read them. I've had quite a few posts where I felt very much like my back was against a wall and several posters were eating me for breakfast, I got several emails from lurkers who said the appreciated my thoughts.

Don't sweat it buddy.

Now with that, I really need to get back to work.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Hatrack IS clicky
Until now I had no idea that you guys were saying 'cliquey'
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post 
:-) thanks BB
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2