posted
I meant predictions made here. Obviously unverifiable (either that he made the prediction, or that it came true) stuff isn't going to cut it for this discussion.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sam, no one is born right. So anyone who wants to be right, must become right. And the only way that can happen is to allow one's self to be corrected, and learn better. Are you willing to do that? Let's dispense with the trash-talking, and see now what unfolds.
Honestly, it's the little things like this that make this board an unreplicable experience.
You are cognitively dissonant to the extent that it even allows you to, effortlessly, mentally reframe and even 're-remember' your own recorded arguments and statements from even minutes prior. This actually helps me glean some insight into the oft-asked question (not just by me!) of what the world must be like through your eyes. Now, I think I have a better idea. Reality instinctively becomes a chameleonic entity, an end product framed by the vagaries of what you desire it to be in that moment. I am, frankly, awestruck by the process.
Yes, let's see what happens.
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: The standard is
quote:to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.
Awarding the prize to Obama is a farce. Those who have given him the prize should be ashamed. Even though the prizes have been political before, the person has usually had at least something that could defensibly be an accomplishment worthy of the prize.
Exactly. This is stupid. Obama's actually worse than Bush on a lot of issues, and rewarding him for being such a pathetic centrist isn't going to make him act on the change he promised.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sam, what I said is the truth. Your attempt at denial is pathetic, based as usual on personal attack rather than reason.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I meant that I don't think he can keep the money.
Yes, he can. That's what it is for, and it's his to do with what he wants.
I was refering to rules about what one can keep as President rather than what the Nobel rules are. Would this count as a gift?
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So no, I do not wish to place any bets. Prestige and credibility are enough to risk.
I still wonder what this has to do with YOU, though. You have lost all of both of those long ago, Ron, at least around here.
Be careful though....you might find someone in your church who might not want to "suffer a witch to live" if you reveal your incredable abilities. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I meant that I don't think he can keep the money.
Yes, he can. That's what it is for, and it's his to do with what he wants.
I was refering to rules about what one can keep as President rather than what the Nobel rules are. Would this count as a gift?
Nope, it is an award, not a gift, and it is from a committee, with no strings attached. I thought you were referring to that, but I am pretty sure he can keep it.
Looks like he is going to donate the total sum to a charity (according to the White House), and he is not the only sitting president who has accepted.
posted
Not very related to the thread, but I thought this deserved kudos
quote:I cried. Like a little girl. It was like the moon landing for us — finally, a president is directly speaking out to me and my people — a president celebrates Diwali in The White House!
This weekend I made the trek back to The Bay Area where I grew up, to celebrate the Hindu New Year, Diwali. Diwali is a celebration of lights, and marks the triumph of good over evil, and is celebrated with great fanfare by Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, and some Buddhists, around the world.
All through the weekend I received phone calls and texts from inspired friends and families wishing me Diwali wishes, and gushing over the news that Obama was the first president ever to celebrate Diwali in The White House. (It started in the Bush era, in 2003, but President Bush never personally took part in the celebration, nor was it celebrated within the main White House walls.) The President lead a small ceremony which included an invocation by a Hindu priest, and a ceremonial lighting of the Diya (lamp, symbolizing the brightness of truth and knowledge over darkness and ignorance), and had this to say: ... In addition, this great ceremony culminated with the joyous event of the President re-establishing the President’s advisory committee and White House initiative on Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders (which was created under Clinton, but later died under Bush.)
We have a friend in India, with a niece that has severe mental developmental problems--imagine having an 8 year old permanently in the family. The one thing that she enjoys and looks forward to more than all others is Diwali. The look in her eyes as the lights go up is wonderful.
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posted
I bet they don't have us beat for Christmas lights, though. Some people turn their homes and yards into lighted fantasylands. Must burn megawatts of power. And we leave the lights up for weeks. Winter in Michigan would be pretty dreary without it, though.
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posted
Ours have health and safety implications. In case of heavy snowfall I can find my way home by following the Christmas lights like a plane looking for runway lights.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I bet they don't have us beat for Christmas lights, though. Some people turn their homes and yards into lighted fantasylands. Must burn megawatts of power. And we leave the lights up for weeks. Winter in Michigan would be pretty dreary without it, though.
In Trinidad, we celebrate both Christmas and Divalli. The lights go for Divalli and stay up through Christmas.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Ours have health and safety implications. In case of heavy snowfall I can find my way home by following the Christmas lights like a plane looking for runway lights.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Yea, but the lights in Diwali have actual religious significance to their holiday.
I don't want to start a religious argument here, but you should be aware that for many of us who are Christians, Christmas lights have actual religious significance as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Really? Could you elaborate?
The use of candles and other fires and lights as part of the Christmas celebration goes back as far as the celebration its self. They are reminiscent of the star of bethlehem and are symbols of Christ who we worship as "the light of the world".
I hope that question was not intended to as sarcastic as it seemed to me. I recognize that there are also many purely secular uses of lights at Christmas just as there are millions of purely secular people who celebrate Christmas. The fact that non-religious people have chosen to join in celebrating a Christian holiday, does not mean that there are not still people who celebrate for devout religious reasons. I also recognize that many of the symbols used by Christians in celebrating Christmas, had origins in pagan celebrations. That's irrelevant. Pretty much every religion and culture that originated in the northern Hemisphere has some sort of celebration of lights around the time of the winter solstice. Given that, Its pretty silly and insulting to claim that the use of lights has real religious significance in some of those religious celebrations but not others.
But please, before you launch in to arguing about it, it is my religion and I know what has religious meaning to me.
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posted
I am with The Rabbit on this. Advent candles to symbolize Light coming into the world, for example.
ETA: I think it likely that "light" is one of those almost universal symbols, used in many traditions. I find this enormously hopeful.
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posted
I have actually joked about wanting to start a religion that celebrates darkness in December, just so we could complain about all those "non-denominational" festivals that insist on lighting things around that time of year.
"God made it dark in December for a reason, people! All these lights mock His purpose!"
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The Rabbit: Ummm, I wasn't being sarcastic. I just wanted more information.
Sorry I misinterpreted your intent. I do find it a more than a bit surprising that anyone growing up in North American would not know that light was one of the most frequently used symbols for Jesus Chris and/or truth and/or virtue.
[ October 21, 2009, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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posted
The Rabbit: *shrug* How would I put it, obviously, I've encountered generic light vs. dark symbolism in popular culture whether LOTR or Babylon 5. Now that you've pointed it out, I've seen paintings of Christ surrounded by a glow or light in paintings or the like.
However, when initially considering Christmas lights on their own, their religious angle totally escaped me. I was more thinking about multicoloured strings of led lights or icicle lights.
Also, I've probably never encountered Advent candles or the phrase "the light of the world" if that helps.
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posted
The modern multicolored strings are, from what I gather, merely a technological extension of the original candles or whatever was originally used. If early Christians had had electric lights they probably would have used them.
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We had this discussion in law school during a property class because we were discussing Homeowners associations and their restrictions on certain things. We discussed their restrictions on the mezuzah, but we also brought up Christmas lights.
The professor asked the class (80 students, mostly Christian) if it had religious significance. Everyone agreed that it does not have religious significance.
Anyways, I appreciate the correction.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: The professor asked the class (80 students, mostly Christian) if it had religious significance. Everyone agreed that it does not have religious significance.
That is really, really sad.
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I suspect there is a contextual issue here that influenced the answer you got in a law class. Unlike the Mezuzah, displaying Christmas lights publicly on the exterior of ones house isn't considered an obligatory religious ritual by any mainstream Christian church (that I'm familiar with). And while candles and lights are part of many worship services celebrating Christmas, exterior house lighting generally isn't. Add to that the fact that is has become such a widespread secular practice in the US. and I can completely see why a law class would answer that way.
My guess is that if you put many of those people in a different situation, say a discussion of the religious significance of diwali lights, and asked them if lights had an religious significance at Christmas -- you would have gotten a very different response.
As I understand it, Diwali lights fall somewhere in between the Mezuzah and the Christmas lights. Its not obligatory but its a pretty central part of the religious celebration. Here in Trinidad, lots of people of with or without Indian ancestry put out deeps for Divali as part of the festival even if they aren't Hindu. Its really more accurate to call it a festival than a Holy Day. Maybe more akin to Hanukkah.
I'd also be a bit wary of answers given in a law school class by presumably Christian students. There are a lot of people who if to state their religion, will say they are Christian even though they are mostly areligious. The answers you get from them about Christianity are as likely as unreliable as the answers secular Jews give about Judaism. Law school is a very secular environment so I suspect devout religious people would be unlikely to speak out on that kind of issue even if they strongly disagreed. It just wouldn't be worth the fight.
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quote:Also, I've probably never encountered Advent candles or the phrase "the light of the world" if that helps.
As an example, one simple thing we typically do at Christmas worship service is distribute unlit candles to everyone in attendance and then shut off all lights other than the Advent candles, to represent the darkness of the world. The pastor will then take his candle and light it from the Christ candle (in the center of the Advent candles). He then uses his candle to light the assistant pastor's candle, who then uses his candle to light the ushers' candles, who then use their candles to light the candles of the first person in every pew row, and so on until every person's candle is lit. This is supposed to represent the spreading of God's Word, from person to person, until the world is lit. That's how light, as a symbol, fits into the Christmas story. He, and His story, is the light the enters the world.
Having said that, I'd not be surprised if many people, even Christians, made the connection between that symbolism and things like outdoor light displays and Christmas trees.
quote:The professor asked the class (80 students, mostly Christian) if it had religious significance. Everyone agreed that it does not have religious significance.
Depending on the context of the class, I'd also think this question might have a special connotation in law school - it could bring issues of First Amendment rights (can the government put up Christmas lights?) to mind.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: The professor asked the class (80 students, mostly Christian) if it had religious significance. Everyone agreed that it does not have religious significance.
That is really, really sad.
well, they ARE law students . . . Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Tresopax: Interesting. Makes sense though. Is there a particular denomination that is particularly known for this ceremony or is there an alternate name for it? Perhaps surprisingly, "advent candle" in Wikipedia is unhelpful, redirecting to "advent wreath."
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quote:The professor asked the class (80 students, mostly Christian) if it had religious significance. Everyone agreed that it does not have religious significance.
What's also strange about that is not just none of them knowing the religious significance, but none of them when asked the question thinking about the question and coming up with at least a good guess.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Perhaps surprisingly, "advent candle" in Wikipedia is unhelpful, redirecting to "advent wreath."
The advent wreath holds the advent candles. What Tres described is a Christmas Eve Candlelight service. It's pretty widespread across denominations.
Edit: the prologue to the gospel of John is often read during the candlelight service, it makes the point (or even rubs it in). If you want to know why light has religious significance at Christmas, here it is:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he came to testify to the light. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world."
quote:The professor asked the class (80 students, mostly Christian) if it had religious significance. Everyone agreed that it does not have religious significance.
What's also strange about that is not just none of them knowing the religious significance, but none of them when asked the question thinking about the question and coming up with at least a good guess.
My law school is actually a Jesuit university, and my professor consulted with a number of the religious faculty. They all denied its significance.
I'm assuming they had a religious agenda when answering...?
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posted
It may be, too, that they acknowledge the lights have no actual religious (i.e. doctrinal) significance, but are purely symbolic.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
More likely they were using "religious significance" in a closely defined way. Putting up Christmas lights is not a religious obligation or a part of a formal liturgy.
Edit: or what Tom said. Sort of.
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posted
They're not of explicit religious significance(the custom is only like 60 years old for electric lights and like 150 for candles and they're derived from pagan sources). It's more that light itself is an important part of Christmas, so that people regard the Christmas lights as part of that.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: More likely they were using "religious significance" in a closely defined way. Putting up Christmas lights is not a religious obligation or a part of a formal liturgy.
Edit: or what Tom said. Sort of.
Which is what I was trying to say above. The context in which the question was asked is really important because that context defines what is meant by "religious significance". If the question was asked as part of a legal discussion of whether HOAs can restrict religious practices, I would expect a very different answer than when the question is posed in a discussion about the use of candles and lights for other religious festivals.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: They're not of explicit religious significance(the custom is only like 60 years old for electric lights and like 150 for candles and they're derived from pagan sources). It's more that light itself is an important part of Christmas, so that people regard the Christmas lights as part of that.
You are wrong about that Squicky. I think you are think about the use of lights/candles on Christmas trees in specific and not the more general use of candles/lights as part of the Christmas celebration. Candles have been used both as part of the Christmas liturgy and christmas celebrations for at least a thousand years. They were very likely adopted from pagan sources but like I said early, that irrelevant.
No one is claiming that Christians invented the idea of using lights and candles as part of a winter solstice celebration. I was simply claiming that that use has as much religious significance for many Christians as divali lights do for many Hindus.
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quote:You are wrong about that Squicky. I think you are think about the use of lights/candles on Christmas trees in specific and not the more general use of candles/lights as part of the Christmas celebration.
I'm wrong about what? Yeah, I'm specifically talking about Christmas lights and candles as home decorations, not about their use in liturgical contexts.
I think there is some sort of mix up here regarding that. Lights used in Christmas liturgies have an established and explicit religious symbolism.
Strings of lights that people hang on their house or around the Christmas tree don't.
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posted
That may be partly my fault. When I used the phrase "Christmas lights" earlier, I meant the strings on the outside of the house rather than anything else, but I was evidentially responding to a post that used a more general definition that includes more.
dkw: Ah, found it. Thanks
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posted
Obama's pronunciation in his Diwali video is really spot on. Much better than I can do, certainly.
Diwali as celebrated in India today is very secularized - something similar to Christmas in the US. Maybe moreso, even - it's not at all common for people to go to temple to celebrate in India, altho you do see diaspora Indians going to temple - more to interact in the community than for any religious reasons. Instead, it's a time to hang out with the family, eat sweets, wear new clothes, light candles and diyas (it is, after all, literally the festival of rows of lights) and make really, really loud explosions with firecrackers. Better than Fourth of July, since you can get all of the firecrackers that are now illegal in the US, like bottle rockets.
My husband's family doesn't celebrate Diwali that much, as they're Bengali, and Diwali comes just after their biggest holiday of Durga Puja. The two of us did celebrate a little, as did my office coworkers. (One of my closest friends in the office is Indian, and she's really missing her family right now b/c of Diwali. So we tried to cheer her up by dressing up in the office & going out to eat Indian buffet).
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quote:You are wrong about that Squicky. I think you are think about the use of lights/candles on Christmas trees in specific and not the more general use of candles/lights as part of the Christmas celebration.
I'm wrong about what? Yeah, I'm specifically talking about Christmas lights and candles as home decorations, not about their use in liturgical contexts. .
Christmas candles have been used as home decorations since the middle ages when they were set in home windows to help guide the Christ child on his way to earth.
Yes, strings of icicle lights hanging from the roof tops haven't been around for centuries, I'd estimate its been about 15 years. But they are part of an evolution of lighting homes as part of the Christmas festival that goes back pretty continuously to when it was Saturnalia rather than a Christian celebration. Associating Christian symbols with the lights was a natural transition given that the new testament writers already used light as one of the symbols for Jesus and his coming. All the evidence shows that associating Christian symbolism with candles and yulelogs goes back as far as Christmas has been celebrated as a liturgical holiday, which goes back at a minimum to 350 AD, probably further.
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