quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sarcasm is one thing. Lying is something else. Jon Boy lied about what I said. That is not funny, it is dimwitted.
Perhaps it is futile for me to try to educate barbarians in the proper use of literary devices.
It is. Please stop. Now.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sarcasm is one thing. Lying is something else. Jon Boy lied about what I said. That is not funny, it is dimwitted.
It was definitely funny before.
But now you've retroactively made it much funnier. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Verin as black Ajah? I never even considered that. I desperately want to know who Messana and Demondred are? I thought I knew for the longest time, but now... I'm not so sure.
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posted
Verin straight out lies and Robert Jordan said that he did not just make a consistency error (but RAFO to find out how that all works out). So, black is an option, hunter of black who found rod also an option.
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posted
DDD, see this FAQ if you're interested in reading some theories about Mesaana, Demandred, and Verin (among many other things). The FAQ contains spoilers through Crossroads of Twilight.
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posted
Verin's mystery is finally answered. Affiliations are exposed. The mystery of the "too young" sitters is explained. Prophecies are fulfilled. Reunions occur. Anticipated meetings occur. Plot threads are ended and some people die.
I keep rereading the ending, as well as scenes that gave me chills.
And still....the ending of the series eludes me. The way this will play out remains a mystery.
So looking forward to Towers of Midnight.
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Like many others, I was somewhat disenchanted with the series from somewhere of Path of Daggers and onwards. Plotwise, I must say that Brandon Sanderson's installment was a marked improvement on the last few books. There was a few unnecessary parts, like Mat's visit to the village (trying to avoid spoilers here), but overall I was pleased with what happened.
Brandon Sanderson's style is servicable, but, in my opinion, doesn't reach the heights of Jordan at the latter one's best. There is a sense av awe and pathos that Jordan sometimes achieved but which Sanderson only strive to accomplish. In that way, I feel a sense of loss that we didn't see what Jordan would have managed to convey, if he had had the time to finish his vision. On the other hand, it is by no means certain that Jordan had it in him to streamline the plot in the way Sanderson has managed.
Overall, I feel that Brandon Sanderson has succeded in bringing the Wheel of Time along in the best way that could reasonably have been expected under the circumstances. I will buy the last two books when they arrive and am pleased that it now seems as if I will shortly see the end of a story that I begun to read over fifteen years ago.
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While the styles were different (and perhaps there was a gravitas in the characters that BS has yet to learn to convey) the fact is, I liked the movement of the story and the characters still felt like themselves (Mat was the most off, but from what I've read, BS knows about this and is working on this in the next book). The character arcs seemed right.
In fact, there is one area where I liked BS better than Jordan. His writing was less oblique. By that I mean, the characters didn't think in circumlocutions, going around and around what they were thinking about (and I can think of a few places in the last few books where that was the case). The fact is, when you're in a character's POV, they should be clear in what they are thinking. IMO, that one aspect only served on purpose: artificial mystery. How bad is it that you can see into a person's mind and still not know what they are doing or what their motivation is? Related to that is what is planned and executed. You know that person planning something, but you're not sure which. Sure there are clues, and in hindsight, it's obvious, but at the time, their POV provides no answers. (And perhaps that's where the character gravitas seemed to emanate from- if so, well, I think the trade off is a good one.)
No, I don't need things spoon fed to me. And the puzzles are fun. But I don't confuse artificial mystery due to authorial obfuscation with actual mystery.
And so what I liked about BS was that the character's thought more clearly. They thought about the past. They were more self-aware. Most importantly, for the first time ever, I saw a WOT character empathize with what Rand had been through (I don't refer to his 3 girls, but someone, who, up until this book, had been pretty high-handed and annoying). Holy crap on stick! Someone actually imagining being held in a box to be pulled out an beaten, and realizing the trauma that would have caused. Someone actually getting a clue. More than one someone.
Maybe that wasn't BS. Maybe that was in the notes. But to see characters finally starting to get a clue....well, that just made things even better.
It wasn't just a hastily thrown together thing where plot lines and mysteries were resolved. It certainly doesn't even come close to the travesty that was the attempts to write the Dune sequel.
It took the best of Jordan and his world, but gave it a new lens: at times clearer, certainly tighter and faster moving (no baths or dresses or pages and pages of description and internal monologue on useless things).
Still WOT. Still awesome.
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posted
Erm, Jay, can we avoid outright spoilers, please? I mean that's borderline anyways since I haven't read Mat's part yet....
Actually I'm not surprised if Mat is off, it seems he would definitely be the most difficult character to write, if only because it seemed Jordan put a special part of himself into Mat. I've always thought Mat was the best character, and even in Crossroads, Mat's chapters were fun to read. I think there is a sense of humor that goes into writing him that would be hard to replicate, but that said I hope he's not off in TGS too much, since like I said he's been my favorite character for a long time.
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posted
You are correct about Mat. And he's a hard character to write. The balance between rogue and hero, world-weary soldier and fun-loving. His personality bespeaks someone who has survived battles and has had them affect him. Given that, it's obvious that a person with the experience of BS is not going to get him right the first time. Truth is, he's only slightly off. But Jason Denzel (the guy who runs dragonmount and a friend of BS) has let him know about the 'offness' of Matt's character. Which is good cause we can all guess where the next book is gonna go.
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posted
So, for folks who have read it- would it be less enjoyable if I were to give in and go find some spoiler sites?
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Yes....Unless you don't plan on reading it, don't ruin it for yourself. Read the book first.
I just finished the book last night, and thought it was outstanding, well written, and it got me excited about the ending of the series. I thought it plotted well, had a few good stories to tell, and one excellent story.
Now I am back to waiting for the next book. I thought this book was one of the best since The Great Hunt, which is my favorite book of the series.
It isn't without problems, but it is a great addition...which is something I haven't been able to say for years.
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posted
I would say yes, but primarily because this book chronicles 2 character arcs. And those arc endings are very satisfying because of what comes before it, because of seeing the character evolution from one point to another. That being the case, the endings of both those arcs can be emotional.
This is possibly more true in this book than in any other from the last, oh 5 books or so.
And I would argue (possibly) that answers to mysteries you've always wondered about are only satisfying when you're actually emotionally invested in the series. So finding out the solution to the Verin mystery, or who killed Asmodean (a much less important mystery in my opinion) is only going to be satisfying if you actually care about the story and the characters.
That being said, there are multiple reviews that are filled with spoilers. Possibly the most entertaining is that given by Leigh Butler here.Again, that review is filled with spoilers.
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He can't tell us who killed Asmodean! That is just wrong. That should only be disclosed in the last line of the last book. Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
And this is Verin's secret: She's a horse shape-shifter and that it was in her BELA form that she killed Asmodean. She took the form of Bela so she could keep an eye on the Dragon Reborn from his infancy onward. Her power comes not from the the True Source or even the True Power, but instead, it comes from a third power, the Twue Source, which can be channeled by equines.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
So I finished TGS last night. I don't wanna say it was the best since I last read the first 10 three years ago, but it had to have been one of the best. Egwene in particular was fantastic and had a really great story, in fact her chapters in the book were so filled with awesome that she's basically tied with Mat as my favorite character at this point. Rand's story was also very good (more below). Mat and Perrin were pretty much just in it to remind you they're important, Mat's story didn't really do anything particularly interesting but his chapters were still fun, as usual. All in all, Sanderson did an absolutely phenomenal job picking up where jordan left off, and I know that Jordan left extensive notes and some scenes, but for sanderson to so seamlessly take control is quite a feat. At any rate it was easily the best book since Lord of Chaos and probably in the top 3 or 5 at least. It's inspired me to go back and reread the series before the last two volumes come out.
okay, MAJOR MAJOR spoilery thoughts below: (is there some way to spoiler tag it? I don't see an option using the UBB codes.
Rand's story was really tough to read, but ultimately very satisfying. I never particularly liked what Jordan did with rand, since he basically made the main character totally unlikeable around book 6. His use of the true power and balefiring of the castle in Arad Doman was hardcore, and it seems as though he has reintegrated with Lews Therin, but I don't know what's supposed to have become of his connection with Moridin. Is it gone? Anyways, hopefully, we can get back to liking him again in the last two books. The last scene on Dragonmount was very well done.
Egwene was awesome. The scenes where she tore Elaida a new a-hole and defended against the Seanchan were some of the best in the series. The image of her standing in a hole in the white tower and smiting the attackers was fantasic.
Nice to solve the mystery of Verin. I never thought she was black ajah, but it makes sense that if she was, she was a spy. really cool way to send her off, and thankfully they've mostly purged the white tower of the black at this point. But where's Mesaana? And what does Verin's letter to Mat say? Is Min's vision of him with two Aes Sedai on the scales a decision he has to make between Verin and Moiraine's letters? Surely they'll rescue Moiraine in the next book, especially given the title...
Random speculation: Rand still has to make some kind of bargain with the Seanchan, but what will ever convince them not to leash channelers? Unless they get their asses severely handed to them at some point. But Mat's prophecy is that he will give up half the light of the world to save the world, and the last book is called A Memory of Light... So maybe Mat has to do something that destroys saidar, or something, making the issue of leashing channelers a moot point. Or maybe Mat just convinces Tuon at some point that leashing isn't very nice.
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I think Sanderson is doing a great job of bringing all of the many, many plot threads together. This book actually feels like the beginning of the end. Well worth reading.
Rand's last chapter in this one is definitely one of my favorites. The conversation he had gave me chills. Great stuff.
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What I loved the most was the emotional resolution of the Dragon. I am purposely not using the names "Rand" or "Lews Therin" because they're the same person- they always were. The way the series was written, once Lews Therin showed up (in 5- Fires of Heaven), he quickly became a separate character from Rand, in my mind. He was NOT the same person...or at least, that was my visceral reaction to him. Although I have always subscribed to the belief that he was a psychological construct for Rand to access his past life memories, I never really considered Lews Therin's emotional needs as having any impact on Rand.
This book made clear that much of the Rand's pain stemmed from his undealt with anguish for the murder of his wife and family. While not consciously accessing those memories, Rand was still suffering the emotional trauma and guilt for what he had done. His thing against the killing of women (or his allowance of it) didn't stem merely from a outmoded sense of chivalry, but stemmed from what he had done to his wife- her murder.
One top of that kind of unhealed pain, comes the constant betrayals from those he trusted. Egwene even comments on how Rand should have been approached and how trust should have been earned. Instead, by locking him into a box, beating him, they really traumatized him. Almost seems like a PST reaction. Later, in Crown of Swords, when he meets with the Sea Folk on their ships in a cramped cabin and sits in a confining chair his reaction is to get out of there as quickly as possible, ripping the arm of the chair off in the process, because he is confined again. Even more telling is the fact that in Winter's Heart, when Rand is captured in Far Madding and locked up, his reaction is visceral. He thinks he's in the box again- that this is the result of trusting, that he must become as cold as winter's heart. Min then tells Cadsuane that Rand seems to be changing- getting harder, like steel. The title of the book, "Winter's Heart" is about Rand. The opening prophecy says "in winter's heart shall Winter's Heart be born".
Then, as the final straw, we see what happens when Semirhage leashes him and he almost kills Min. That was the break. Something in him snapped and he channeled the True Power. From that point on, he becomes emotionally dead. (The real danger here comes from the fact that he will fall into the same situation that Aridhol fell into- to fight the shadow they became as vile as the shadow. They became Shadar Logoth Something similar was happening to the White Cloaks, though that may have been arrested now.)
But in the last 2 chapters, beginning with his meeting with Tam, we see him finally come to terms with himself and his past actions. That despite the pain and the repetition, the world is worth saving. It's all about second chances- redemption. And he now has a new perspective. His emotional trauma as Lews Therin is at peace. I found this chapter so emotionally moving. I was happy that Rand finally found peace. (Love the end prophecy- the blind man stands on his own grave...)
Now, he still will need to learn to trust Aes Sedai, but then again, they will need to EARN his trust. Egwene, at least, has a clue to how far the Aes Sedai's behavior has pushed him. Hopefully this will lead to some resolution. But then again, he will "know her wrath" (though says nothing about how he reacts to that wrath.) And there's still Min's viewing that Perrin has to be there again to save him from women who can channel hurting him. Not sure who or what that is. Might be the Seanchan. Tuon seems hellbent on subduing the Dragon- a stupid course of action, if you ask me. (Ironic, since she can channel. Maybe she'll be leashed and find out she is damane.) The "half the light of the world, I think ties into Egwene's dream of Matt with his hat pulled down over his eyes and blood streaming down his face, and Min seeing Matt with an eye on a balance scale. He may lose an eye. Seems to fit the mythological character he was reverse engineered from (Odin, wears a wide brimmed hat, carries a spear, hung from a tree for knowledge, accompanied by ravens "thought and memory", lost an eye).
I suspect that Rand's ability to channel the True Power through his link with Moridin will be crucial in sealing the bore. In one chapter (22 I thin), Lews Therin explains that the problem was that something had to touch the Dark One in the sealing- in this case, Saidin, which then was tainted. No reason to believe the same wouldn't happen to Saidar. But if he can use the True Power as a buffer and then seal the bore with both halves of the one power, then the Dark One won't be able to taint either. I think the prophecy about "making the 3 one" refers to this. He has access to the True Power through Moridin.
And Verin was awesome. Black Ajah double agent. In one step, she dealt a crippling blow to the Black Ajah. Bet Ishamael nor any of the others expected someone to do that. Still wonder about Mat's letters though.
Can't wait till next year.
In the meantime, gonna read a few other of Brandon Sanderson's books.
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posted
Nice post, Ian. Good call on the prophecies relating to Mat - I totally forgot about those until I read your post. I don't know about using the True Power against the Dark One, it seems like he would restrict use of it if someone wanted to turn it against him, but it's an interesting thought for sure.
As for Sanderson, his Mistborn trilogy is a lot of fun. I'll probably end up reading Elantris and Warbreaker before this time next year, too.
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: In one chapter (22 I thin), Lews Therin explains that the problem was that something had to touch the Dark One in the sealing- in this case, Saidin, which then was tainted. No reason to believe the same wouldn't happen to Saidar. But if he can use the True Power as a buffer and then seal the bore with both halves of the one power, then the Dark One won't be able to taint either. I think the prophecy about "making the 3 one" refers to this. He has access to the True Power through Moridin.
As far as we know, the ways are still tainted. So if worse came to worse, it might be usable as a sink for taint after resealing. At that point, it would just be a matter of finding a great enough source of power.
That said, I think your suggestion is far more likely to be what actually happens.
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posted
Been thinking a lot about the method to be used in sealing the bore. The more I think about it, the less sure I am that it will be with the power (all of them) at all. I think that "3 become 1" prophecy interpretation is a red-herring. It's too obvious: Rand and 2 channelers linked with Callendor, Rand using Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power (both through links). Just seems too obvious. The text all but has come out and given each intrepretation (similar to Graendal's repeated musings that Demandred is with the Borderlanders....which means he is most definitely not with them.)
More than that, one of the major themes that keeps coming up is that you can't just throw more power at the Dark One. The Choeden Kal were unnecessary, and if the female AS in the AoL had actually helped the Dragon and seal the bore, RJ has stated (in the TOR question of the week) that Saidar also would have been tainted.
Here is what I am more and more leaning toward (from the 13th depository.com forums. A great site, btw.) --------- As to the Aiel and the song….I will confess that I’ve always felt like this was an over complication of what was obviously a metaphor for better times. Rand’s trip through the glass columns showed the beginning of the Tuathuan and it seemed cut and dried.
quote: “We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.” “Sing?” Adan scoffed. “I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone.- TSR “The Road to the Spear”
That being said, however, I now lean towards the idea that singing will actually play a major role in the end. Not that I necessarily think that there is a single song that will bring about a new world. But rather, that singing itself will do something, in conjunction with the Dashain Aiel and the Ogier.
The change in my opinion comes from a few things. The Aiel prophecy really does mention the fact that the Aiel will “find again what was theirs, and was lost" and they will "take back their places of old”. So there is something special about the Aiel, something they did in the AoL.
Obviously, they served the Aes Sedai. But the singing keeps coming up: whether it was singing with the Nym to create better crops, Ogier tree singers, Aiel warrior song, or “Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. (TSR “The Dedicated”)” When the Aes Sedai gave Jonai their final mission to guard the *angreal, she admonished him: “Keep the Covenant, Jonai. If the Da’shain lose everything else, see they keep the Way of the Leaf. Promise me. (IBID)” While this could simply be a wish that the Aiel keep what was the best and most beautiful accomplishment of the AoL, given everything else (including a “mission” that was clearly a diversion and may have involved prophecy), there appears to be more to this.
So what is it that the song means? What does the song do? Is it really going to come down to Aiel sitting around the campfire singing “Kumbaya” to the Dark One? I think there is more to the song.
What was it that singing does? Look again at when it has been used.
1) Seed singing:
quote:The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men’s voices lifting in their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier’s. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides…. The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made, that Someshta wove into the soil and around the seeds The song faded slowly, the Aiel guiding its end. Someshta danced a few steps more after the last voices ceased, and it seemed the song still hung faintly in the air for as long as he moved. Then he stopped, and it was done.
There is clearly something going on here. “The World of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time” (The Age of Legends) says, “Ogier (a separate race of beings gifted with the ability to aid and enhance growing things), Nym, and Da'shain Aiel worked as a team, focusing the One Power to insure perfect growth for every field they "sang."”
2) Tree Singing Loial, for the green man:
quote:And he sang. Rand could not say if there were words, or if it was pure song. In that rumbling voice it was as if the earth sang, yet he was sure he heard the birds trilling again, and spring breezes sighing softly, and the sound of butterfly wings.- TEOTW “The Wheel Turns”
Loial, in the mirror world:
quote:This place. . . ." He shivered, and his ears twitched…."Everything is . . . linked, Rand. Whether it lives or not, whether it thinks or not, everything that is, fits together. The tree does not think, but it is part of the whole, and the whole has a - a feeling… Rand, this land was glad for a weapon to be made. Glad!" - TGH- "Kinslayer"
3) The Dashain singing to a madman, quoted above.
In all these cases, the singing somehow causes a unity, a oneness, with everyone and with the pattern itself, (sometimes, it appears) using the one power. And in the case of number 3, the singing to the mad Aes Sedai, I think they were doing more than simply trying to create a diversion for others to flee. They were trying to “turn him with their bodies and their song.”
I think singing is a way of reshaping or healing the pattern, using the One Power as the catalyst. They reshaped the pattern in the seed singing to make the seeds resistant and more bountiful in their production. Loial reshaped the pattern with his song to save the Nym’s tree as well as to create sung wood. The Dashain were TRYING to heal Jaric’s mind of the taint, nevermind that it failed.
So I DO think you are right in your expectation that Avhienda has learned something about the Aiel [in her trip through the history columns] and that she will help them return to that way (or will help those Aiel who’ve already returned to the tinkers asking them about the Way of the Leaf become Dashain.)
Add to that the fact that either Rand now has access to all his memories (though perhaps this was only a temporary occurence), or that one of the *angreal in Caemyln is basically massive database, and perhaps the light-side will finally be able to use singing to heal the bore in the pattern. (Note Cadsuane’s comment that every weave extracted from Semirhage will be one less that the shadow can surprise them with. The AoL Aes Sedai must have had a way of encoding weave information for passing them on. Be interesting to see if such information is in the ipod’angreal in Caemlyn.) Lews Therin commented (paraphrasing, because I don’t have the last book with me): “He can’t be beaten with brute force.”
Or perhaps singing will unite Rand with the entire pattern (which, I DO believe is made from the creator, and thus is the essence of the Creator himself) so that Rand will literally marshal the entire pattern against that which threatens it. Or perhaps the fight will be similar to the battle of Falme, so that Rand’s successes are those of the light, and vice-versa. He’s already tied to the land in very direct ways. Perhaps it will merely enhance it to a supreme degree.
I could see that ending- and it would be powerful and uplifting, the ultimate answer to the unraveling of the pattern and to the death that the Dark One brings, all creation’s refusal to let itself be annihilated, spitting in Sight Blinder’s eye.
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