posted
Gosh, I'm glad in Canada where we couldn't give a flying fish whether someone is a "natural born citizen" or has lived in Canada most of their life. Oh, you spent years clearly dedicated to the wellbeing of the citizens of this country? Nice! Clearly you care a lot about Canada and its people.
quote:Think about what the framers of the U.S. Constitution...
I'm also glad that our constitution's framers were mostly anonymous bureaucrats whose names are forgotten except to the scholar who cares to find out. It means we can change our constitution with just the right amount of hoo-ha, and we do not worship it like some kind of increasingly stagnant and stale religious document instead of a very interesting bit of old paper with some pretty good seedling ideas on it.
Come to Canada! We've got sanity!
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posted
Apologies for my lack of clarity--my last post was a short, frustrated rant at the birther movement.
quote:You see, we are either a nation ruled by law, or a nation ruled by men.
Either/Or? Weren't the laws written by men, and aren't they upheld by men? You say I'm on dangerous ground, but isn't questioning authority exactly what the founding fathers were doing?
quote:It very, very much matters whether or not* President is a natural-born American citizen because...those are the rules we've all agreed to follow. If you're unhappy with it, the proper thing to do is change the process, not to be apathetic if it's violated.
So it very, very much matters...because it's in the rulebook? What I'm asking is "don't we have a better reason?"
I hope that doesn't come across as apathetic. I'm just not the type to follow rules only because they're there.
Edit: Because I hadn't addressed it, I don't think we should ignore the constitution, but that it need to be easier to update it. It's very hard to do because of a sort of reverence given to it as if it were from the mouth of God--and that most of the problems of the country could be solved if we could just get back to doing what the holy document of our forefathers tells us to do.
quote:So it very, very much matters...because it's in the rulebook? What I'm asking is "don't we have a better reason?"
It being in the rulebook matters very much to the question of whether someone should be allowed to violate the rules. It matters not at all to the question of whether we should change the rules.
Basically, you said that even if it turned out President Obama weren't a natural-born American citizen, it shouldn't matter. That particular statement is what I was objecting to, not suggesting that we shouldn't change the rules just because they're the rules.
[quote]
Edit: Because I hadn't addressed it, I don't think we should ignore the constitution, but that it need to be easier to update it. It's very hard to do because of a sort of reverence given to it as if it were from the mouth of God--and that most of the problems of the country could be solved if we could just get back to doing what the holy document of our forefathers tells us to do.[/quoite]
What problems our country faces do you believe would be more easily addressed if the Constitution were more easily amended?
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quote:Originally posted by Teshi: ... we couldn't give a flying fish whether someone is a "natural born citizen" or has lived in Canada most of their life.
Mostly, but not totally.
quote: Ignatieff has been razzed in Conservative party advertising for being out of touch with ordinary folk, spending so much time outside Canada and being elitist. ... "I'm much criticized for having been away for a long time, but I think sometimes you see places more clearly from afar than you see them close up."
That said, we definitely have a less pervasive and less virulent strain of the birther insanity (meme?). We sadly still have it though.
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posted
Mucus, I had Ignatieff in mind when I wrote: "...or has lived in Canada most of their life."
Obama has lived all his adult years in America and proved his dedication to the country by working their voluntarily. He chose, in his adult years, to live in America.
What happens when you're a child or teenager is much less under your control.
This is not to say that I agree or disagree with the furor surrounding Ignatieff, although I see where it is coming from.
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posted
I'm kinda not following. (Edit to add: I'm tired, so its probably on my end. Actually, did you mean something more like "we couldn't give a flying fish whether someone is a "natural born citizen" *when they have* lived in Canada most of their life"?)
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Not only that, Blayne, but he left it dangling and said, "Here's an offensive joke for you trolls to make."
And look who snatched it up. Thanks to PJ for removing Blayne's troll-y remark, though it really didn't bother me. (I did see it before it was removed. I didn't even bother to reply.)
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posted
Teshi, I don't consider the work Obama did for Acorn as a "community organizer" to be working for America. And wealthy liberals financed his eduction. No wonder he chose to live in America.
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posted
Acorn recruits liberal voters selectively, and has been shown to be guilty of criminal activity including voter fraud on numerous occasions.
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posted
Before we continue, Ron, do you concede the point that, yes, Obama is in fact the constitutionally legitimate president?
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Despite the fact that there is not one single shred of evidence, anywhere, to suggest otherwise? Despite the fact that, after having had this conversation for over a year, you are still no closer to having a valid argument to the contrary?
Reality is not simply what you will it to be, Ron. It makes it mildly exhausting to argue with you when what passes for "evidence" for your claims is an assertion that things are the way you say they are, unsupported by any other sort of logic.
Because when I say "ACORN has not been found guilty of criminal activity," for example, that is -- to the full extent of my knowledge -- literally true. In fact, it's only under investigation in a handful of states, and none of them appear close to anything like an actual trial. This is not a defense of ACORN, mind you; this is merely to indicate that you have a habit of assuming that the facts already justify your prejudices, even if they haven't got around to doing so in the real world just yet.
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posted
Ron, I agree that our country is a country of Law. No person is above the law. Whether they are president, or some conservative pundit.
See, high on that list of laws is the idea that a person is Innocent until proven guilty. That is an important part of US law.
Obama is innocent--that means he is a natural born American citizen until someone proves it differently in a court of law. So far every court of law that the birther evidence has been presented too has not been convinced.
This could be a vast conspiracy, or it could be a lack of hard evidence.
You can argue that its a conspiracy. You can claim that all you like. But once you command that the president be removed from office without a court of law agreeing, it is you who are claiming to be above the legal system.
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posted
You assert things that are true only in your own mind, Tom. That things appear that way to you is symptomatic of what is wrong with the liberal mind set. And if you are not by now convinced that Acorn is a criminal enterprise designed to subvert the foundation of American Democracy, then you have truly allowed Obamamania to brainwash you. You probably also believe that Obama was never aware of the outrageous and unamerican statements that Irrev. Jeremiah Wrong was making in OBAMA'S CHURCH FOR 20 YEARS.
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posted
Dan_Ravin, I am content if you will acknowledge that, as you said, "This could be a vast conspiracy, or it could be a lack of hard evidence." As you may recall, that was my contention when I said originally that the matter of Obama's status as a natural born citizen has NOT BEEN SETTLED. I did not demand anything else that you are putting into my mouth. I lament that the Obamanites are so secretive about Obama's past--that is much of the problem, setting up a situation where no honest, thoughtful person can trust anything he says. We do not know him, because his past has been studiously suppressed. Everything that has been turned up, such as his very negative past associations, have been incredibly denied, even though they are proven by documents and eye witnesses.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: You assert things that are true only in your own mind, Tom. That things appear that way to you is symptomatic of what is wrong with the liberal mind set. And if you are not by now convinced that Acorn is a criminal enterprise designed to subvert the foundation of American Democracy, then you have truly allowed Obamamania to brainwash you. You probably also believe that Obama was never aware of the outrageous and unamerican statements that Irrev. Jeremiah Wrong was making in OBAMA'S CHURCH FOR 20 YEARS.
Ron, the thing you are implying, that Obama is some kind of extra-excessively-liberal liberal, doesn't wash. He has, time and again, chosen centrists for his administration. Hillary is a centrist, and we both know I could go on and on. I think he even has some people from the first and second Bush administrations in there, in very high positions. How is his plan to force a liberal agenda on America going to work, if he keeps appointing former Bushies? That's right, Ron, it won't work, because there is no such plan. Sure, Obama wants to tax the rich a little more, but, for Pete's sake, Warren Buffett pays a lower tax rate than I do, and...let's just say that Buffett could buy and sell everybody on Hatrack 100 times over. That's just stupid. Why should people making $9 or $10 an hour pay a lower tax rate than a billionaire?
Other than taxing the rich at a more reasonable rate, Obama is very, very moderate. He doesn't even support gay marriage. Of course, compared to you, Obama is a Communist, but then, compared to you, 99.99% of Earth's people are Communists.
quote:And if you are not by now convinced that Acorn is a criminal enterprise designed to subvert the foundation of American Democracy...
But this is not what you said. Had you said, "I remain convinced that ACORN is a criminal enterprise," heck, I would have shrugged and said, "More power to you."
But what you said is that ACORN has already been proven guilty of numerous crimes, including vote fraud. This is not true.
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posted
Ron, you are a wonderful negotiator. I will agree that the President's past my include a massive hidden conspiracy, and you will agree that there may simply not be enough physical evidence to prove he was born outside this country, but I must insist that you also agree that the reason there is not enough proof is because he was legally born in Hawaii just as his birth certificate, his family, the judges, the courts and the doctors have said.
Of course there was a massive conspiracy to get the President elected. It consisted of over half the people in US, most of home voted for Hope over Fear, Competence over Loyalty, and Honesty over the innuendo and half/truths that make up such groups like the birthers.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: You assert things that are true only in your own mind, Tom. That things appear that way to you is symptomatic of what is wrong with the liberal mind set.
I like how whenever someone's nailed you to the wall on the factuality of a point (in this case, what Tom says is actually true in a non-ambiguous, non-opinion based sense), your immediate response is to accuse them of complete delusion.
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posted
steven, anyone who calls Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton "centrist" has got to be so liberal that Karl Marx looks conservative.
And Sam, what you and Tom say is pure opinion, not fact, and certainly not objective. Face it. You are just as much pundits as I am.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: steven, anyone who calls Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton "centrist" has got to be so liberal that Karl Marx looks conservative.
And Sam, what you and Tom say is pure opinion, not fact, and certainly not objective. You can't even be honest about it.
You just obliterated any use the terms left, center, and right might have had.
Obama and Clinton are so left, that anyone who thinks they are centrists are so much more left that Karl Marx, who is about as far left as you can go is actually to the right.
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posted
Apparently, Obama and Clinton are a sort of 'left singularity', so far left that there is no possibility of escape from being so leftist. Astronomical!
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quote:And Sam, what you and Tom say is pure opinion, not fact...
Ron, it is a fact that ACORN has not been proven guilty of multiple crimes.
It is a fact that Obama has, within both the spirit and the letter of the law, been certified a natural-born citizen. Moreover, it is a fact that natural-born citizens of America can hold citizenship in another country.
I don't know what other facts you would need before you would consider these things to be more than an "opinion."
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quote:On the other hand, I call Obama and Clinton right wing. And I'm not alone *dun dun dun*
Well, if that's the case, clearly you're past the singularity and been sucked into the wormhole. So who knows where you are now. Doubtless some commie-hippie-pinko America-hating dimension. And of course you're not alone, we're positively besieged by you people. You're like the damn Dominion in DS9!
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: And Sam, what you and Tom say is pure opinion, not fact, and certainly not objective. Face it. You are just as much pundits as I am.
No. You said ACORN has been proven guilty of numerous crimes. Tom points out that they have not been proven guilty of numerous crimes. Insofar as the legal issue is concerned, both of these assertions are statements which can be nonambiguously factual or nonfactual.
posted
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict this little subject - the is it or isn't it question of fact here - will be glossed over at best or never addressed directly again by Ron at worst.
I realize I'm reachin' here, but that's my prediction.
----
quote:Clearly, changing our name from the Dominion of Canada has not fooled the likes of Ron.
Maybe if you'd stop hating America so much, you'd be harder to spot.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict this little subject - the is it or isn't it question of fact here - will be glossed over at best or never addressed directly again by Ron at worst.
I realize I'm reachin' here, but that's my prediction.
Well to be fair, there are many different standards of "proven". For example (listed in order of decreasing rigor) proven mathematically, proven scientifically, proven legally, proven beyond a shadow of doubt, proven beyond reasonable doubt, supported by the majority of evidence, and proven to Ron's satisfaction.
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quote:The allegations include, among other things, interference with the basic civil right to vote without fear of intimidation or loss of one's job--a Federal crime if proven in a court of law. The allegations are in fact similar to those against ACORN itself, along with ACORN's proven election fraud as shown by guilty pleas by numerous ACORN personnel.
quote:Now that a third ACORN video has surfaced, a pattern emerges of ACORN workers willing to help people engage in prostitution, tax fraud, housing fraud, and even human trafficking. Under federal law, a RICO investigation is now warranted. Three strikes and you're out, ACORN.
Videos show ACORN employees offering to help two undercover reporters/filmmakers posing as a prostitute and pimp in falsifying tax returns and getting a federal loan to buy a house that they could use as a brothel for underage prostitutes smuggled in from El Salvador.
When the first video emerged from such a meeting in ACORN's Baltimore office on Thursday, ACORN fired the two workers involved. When another video surfaced on Friday, this one from ACORN's D.C. office, the two workers involved there were fired as well, and ACORN said that these two reporters had tried and failed to carry out this sting in other offices.
. . . .
These are all implicated on the video tapes. The ACORN workers rattle off their how-to instructions on carrying out these crimes without needing to do more than skim a couple books that they have on hand. The clear implication is that these workers are seasoned pros on how to carry out these crimes, subsidized by federal taxpayer money.
Although everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, a RICO investigation is now warranted. There are already multiple state investigations of ACORN underway, and thirty ACORN workers have already pleaded guilty to committing crimes. Attorney General Eric Holder should immediately order a RICO investigation, while we all wait to see if more footage is forthcoming.
quote:Only four Democrats voted against an amendment last week that would ... allow organizations with a criminal history to receive taxpayer funding. They are: Rep. Bobby Bright (D-Ala.) Rep. Harry Mitchell (D-Ariz.), Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and Rep. Walt Minnick (D-Idaho).
The amendment passed by a margin of 245-176 in an otherwise party line vote just as new criminal charges were filed against the Association of Community Organizers for Reform Now (ACORN) in Nevada and Pennsylvania. The group is now under investigation for voter fraud in at least 14 different states.
quote:A leading liberal Democrat in the House blasted the embattled community organizing group ACORN Wednesday and said he is urging the White House to withhold any federal funding for the group.
"I am very disappointed in the actions that were taken by members of ACORN," Massachusetts Rep. Barney Frank, Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said in a statement Wednesday, "and I do not believe that ACORN's response has been adequate for an organization that has received public funding."
Frank also said in the statement that he is urging the Obama administration to withhold any additional funding for ACORN "at least until there is very firm evidence that the abuses of which ACORN members have been guilty have not only ceased, but that procedures are in place to prevent them from happening again."
quote:In the wake of devastating video reports revealing corruption at local offices of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, the U.S. Census Bureau has cancelled its agreement calling for ACORN to work on the 2010 census.
A Florida conservative has registered an official "Tea Party" with the office of the Secretary of State, and is promising to run candidates against Republicans and Democrats in state and national races.
"The current system has become mired in the sludge of special interest money that seeks to control the leadership of both parties. It’s time for real change,” says Orlando lawyer Frederic O’Neal, the new party's chairman, who couldn't be reached immediately by phone, in a press release.
A spokeswoman for the Florida Secretary of State, Jennifer Davis, said the party had registered in August, and that its qualified candidates will appear on the ballot in the state.
O'Neal compared his party's role to that of the Conservative Party in New York's 23rd District. Florida, however, lacks the "fusion" rules that has allowed third parties in New York to amass influence by offering their ballot line to acceptable major-party candidates.
quote:thirty ACORN workers have already pleaded guilty to committing crimes
Yes. These are, in fact, the only crimes "proven" so far. It's worth noting that these thirty workers were, AFAIK with only two exceptions, turned in by ACORN itself. (The other two were reported by individuals to authorities first, and ACORN then complied with the investigations.)
These are not cases of ACORN as an organization being proven guilty of crime, any more than the occasional case of theft among Girl Scout cookie vendors -- isolated cases of which happen fairly regularly -- "proves" that the Girl Scouts are a bunch of thieves, despite the fact that most of the thieves convicted are in fact reported by the Scouts themselves.
Later in your citation, Frank refers to the "abuses of which these ACORN workers are guilty;" it's worth noting he uses the word "abuses" instead of crimes. That's because the video evidence (which is, I'll note, evidence of something altogether different from voter fraud), while humiliating, is also not proof of crime. (If you would like me to go into this in more detail, I will. To quickly sum up, however, it is a) unlikely that the events caught on tape are actually criminal; and b) the tapes are inadmissible, were available for tampering, and moreover were themselves produced illegally; and c) the motive of the workers in question has already been called into question by at least two of those workers, who have said that they identified it as a joke or college prank early on and were just "playing along" -- meaning that criminal conviction is hardly certain.)
You can say that it is proven that ACORN's written, public policies are not clearly communicated and enforced among the rank-and-file. Use of the word "proven" in other situations -- like, say, that the organization itself has been frequently "proven" guilty of crime -- is remarkably inaccurate.
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No matter what President Obama's actions are, his beliefs may be or his goals really are, he must be the ultimate liberal.
Why?
Because he is the biggest threat to the Conservatives. These reactionaries think on a black and white system. It is all about Good/Evil, Us/Them, Christian/Atheists. There is no room for middle ground. So anyone who is not with them must be the polar opposite.
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quote: These are, in fact, the only crimes "proven" so far.
Similar things occurred in Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Florida, Wisconsin, Ohio, North Carolina, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, and Nevada to name a few. In Nevada the ACORN Director plead guilty to setting a paid quota system for registering new voters.
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quote: These are, in fact, the only crimes "proven" so far.
Similar things occurred in Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Florida, Wisconsin, Ohio, North Carolina, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, and Nevada to name a few. In Nevada the ACORN Director plead guilty to setting a paid quota system for registering new voters.
Were these similar things accusations or convictions? Please share.
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quote:Similar things occurred in Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Florida, Wisconsin, Ohio, North Carolina, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, and Nevada to name a few.
Those are actually included in the 30 discussed. That's where the number came from.
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quote:A high-ranking official at the taxpayer-funded leftist group that conducts fraudulent voter registration drives has pleaded guilty to conspiracy for organizing a scheme that illegally paid workers to register new voters.
After that kind of biased and inflammatory opening, its very difficult for me to trust any "facts" reported in the rest of the article.
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: No matter what President Obama's actions are, his beliefs may be or his goals really are, he must be the ultimate liberal.
Why?
Because he is the biggest threat to the Conservatives.
No, Obama has a voting record that has the highest score of being on the liberal side of any member of Congress. Considering that included superlefters like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry, he is PROVEN to be "way out there."
quote:Earlier this year, NJ ranked Barack Obama's voting record as the most liberal in the Senate in 2007, a characterization that, not surprisingly, has generated much coverage -- and more than a little criticism.
Unfortunately, much of the criticism has been uninformed. . . . . We sent the votes to the Brookings Institution, which is under contract to National Journal to compute the vote ratings based on a system designed by William Schneider, a CNN political analyst and a contributing editor to the magazine. After Brookings delivers the ratings, we run them in our magazine and post them on our Web site.
posted
The most liberal member of congress in a while is actually Barbara Boxer. Even National Journal isn't making the case you're saying they are. They're saying that by their estimation, Obama had the most liberal voting record in 2007, not that he has the highest overall "score of being on the liberal side of any member of Congress."
So, you're wrong, but oh man let me guess you'll never admit it.
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posted
It's also worth noting that "most liberal" according to the National Journal usually means "voted most consistently along party lines." That's not really what "liberal" should mean.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's also worth noting that "most liberal" according to the National Journal usually means "voted most consistently along party lines." That's not really what "liberal" should mean.
This man speaks the truth.
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